Would Natasha Richardson survived if she would have been in US?

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CowboyCO

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There are some news reports that Natasha Richardson may have survived her ski accident had she been in the US, rather than in Canada and the CanadaCare System.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/0326200...canadacare_may_have_killed_natasha_161372.htm

According to the story, Richardson arrived conscious at the hospital, but the local hospital did not have the ability to do a CT scan to diagnose the problem due to rules in CanadaCare about what services different hospitals can provide. Further, CanadaCare does not support air ambulance in Quebec, so Natasha had to be transported to Montreal via regular ambulance, resulting in an additional hour delay before she could be diagnosed and treated.

The story says that if the accident had happened at a Colorado ski resort, that the local hospital would have had the ability to do a CT scan and then also had the ability to transfer by air to a trauma center in Denver for immediate treatment.

COULD actress Natasha Richardson's tragic death have been prevented if her skiing accident had occurred in America rather than Canada?

Canadian health care de-emphasizes widespread dissemination of technology like CT scanners and quick access to specialists like neurosurgeons. While all the facts of Richardson's medical care haven't been released, enough is known to pose questions with profound implications.

Richardson died of an epidural hematoma -- a bleeding artery between the skull and brain that compresses and ultimately causes fatal brain damage via pressure buildup. With prompt diagnosis by CT scan, and surgery to drain the blood, most patients survive.

Could Richardson have received this care? Where it happened in Canada, no. In many US resorts, yes.

Between noon and 1 p.m., Richardson sustained what appeared to be a trivial head injury while skiing at Mt. Tremblant in Quebec. Within minutes, she was offered medical assistance but declined to be seen by paramedics.

But this delay is common in the early stages of epidural hematoma when patients have few symptoms -- and there is reason to believe her case wasn't beyond hope at that point.

About three hours after the accident, the actress was taken to Centre Hospitalier Laurentien, in Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts, 25 miles from the resort. Hospital spokesman Alain Paquette said she was conscious upon reaching the hospital about 4 p.m.

The initial paramedic assessment, travel time to the hospital and time she spent there was nearly two hours -- the crucial interval in this case. Survival rates for patients with epidural hematomas, conscious on arrival to a hospital, are good.

Richardson's evaluation required an immediate CT scan for diagnosis -- followed by either a complete removal of accumulated blood by a neurosurgeon or a procedure by a trauma surgeon or emergency physician to relieve the pressure and allow her to be transported.

But Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts is a town of 9,000 people. Its hospital doesn't have specialized neurology or trauma services. It hasn't been reported whether the hospital has a CT scanner, but CT scanners are less common in Canada.

Compounding the problem, Quebec has no helicopter services to trauma centers in Montreal. Richardson was transferred by ambulance to Hospital du Sacre-Coeur, a trauma center 50 miles away in Montreal -- a further delay of over an hour.

Because she didn't arrive at a facility capable of treatment (with the diagnosis perhaps still unknown) until six hours after the injury, in all likelihood by that time the pressure buildup was fatal. The Montreal hospital could not have saved her life.

Her initial refusal of medical care accounted for only part of the delay. She was still conscious when seen at a hospital and her death might have been prevented if the hospital either had the resources to diagnose and institute temporizing therapy, or air transport had taken her quickly to Montreal.

What would have happened at a US ski resort? It obviously depends on the location and facts, but according to a colleague who has worked at two major Colorado ski resorts, the same distance from Denver as Mt. Tremblant is from Montreal, things would likely have proceeded differently.

Assuming Richardson initially declined medical care here as well, once she did present to caregivers that she was suffering from a possible head trauma, she would've been immediately transported by air, weather permitting, and arrived in Denver in less than an hour.

If this weren't possible, in both resorts she would've been seen within 15 minutes at a local facility with CT scanning and someone who could perform temporary drainage until transfer to a neurosurgeon was possible.

If she were conscious at 4 p.m., she'd most likely have been diagnosed and treated about that time, receiving care unavailable in the local Canadian hospital. She might've still died or suffered brain damage but her chances of surviving would have been much greater in the United States.

American medicine is often criticized for being too specialty-oriented, with hospitals "duplicating" too many services like CT scanners. This argument has merit, but those criticisms ignore cases where it is better to have resources and not need them than to need resources and not have them.

Cory Franklin is a physician who lives outside of Chicago. 2009 Chicago Tribune; distributed by Tribune Media Services.
 
There are some news reports that Natasha Richardson may have survived her ski accident had she been in the US, rather than in Canada and the CanadaCare System.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/0326200...canadacare_may_have_killed_natasha_161372.htm

According to the story, Richardson arrived conscious at the hospital, but the local hospital did not have the ability to do a CT scan to diagnose the problem due to rules in CanadaCare about what services different hospitals can provide. Further, CanadaCare does not support air ambulance in Quebec, so Natasha had to be transported to Montreal via regular ambulance, resulting in an additional hour delay before she could be diagnosed and treated.

The story says that if the accident had happened at a Colorado ski resort, that the local hospital would have had the ability to do a CT scan and then also had the ability to transfer by air to a trauma center in Denver for immediate treatment.


Are you also aware that smaller community hospitals in the US may have the same delay? It is not uncommon for a small community hospital to have only a CT and no MRI? Some do not even have MRI! It would take in addition to that a neurosurgeon immediatly available (with a surgery suite and staff at the ready).

If you think that kind of care is immediatly aailable in all areas of the US, you are mistaken.

We live in a small community with a small community hospital. My mom is chronically ill. When the amblance picks her up, we take the risk to send her 15 minutes away to the better equipt hospital.

People die here as well for lack of immediate service.

But I will grant you if she had the accident by a full service Colorado hospital she would have stood a better chance. But to think it could not and does not happen here on a regular basis is wrong.
 
Maybe, maybe not. The area I grew up in - in the US - we had to drive 40 minutes to a RURAL hospital. To get to a hospital with a MRI, it would have been a 70 mile drive.

Not one person in this world can look back and decide if she would have lived had she been in the US.
 
My MIL, who's in the healthcare industry, (retired now) thinks she would have lived if this had happened in colorado or new hampshire or utah...
 

You know what they say....location is everything. She had the misfortune to have a seemingly benign tumble in a sparsely populated area. By the time she became aware that she needed medical attention after all, the treatment she needed could not be provided by a community hospital. I mean really, what kind of resources and equipment do you expect a hospital that services only 9000 residents to have? That population is roughly the equivalent of the enrollment at half a dozen high schools or a couple of community colleges.

Had she been in a similar region in the US, and first sought treatment at a small community hospital (hours after the initial injury) the outcome might have been the same.

Had the accident occured at a ski hill in rural Nova Scotia, a province where they do have medical helicopters available, the outcome might have been different.

If she had not declined to be assessed by the initial team of paramedics that arrived, she might still be alive as well. As to whether or not she would have died from the injury if she had been in the US...well, I guess that would depend entirely on where in the US the accident occured.
 
Hard to say since the original paramedics were turned away.

Once the amount of blood seeping into the brain gets to be too much, it doesn't matter where you are, the damage is done.
 
I really am not a fan of Monday-morning quarterbacking of this sort. It won't bring her back and it's not going to save anyone else's life, so I'm not sure what the point is other than to start a diatribe against managed health care as used in Canada.
 
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If she were in Colorado and near a big city centre, she would have access to hospitals with MRI, etc. She would have had that same care if she were skiing near a big Canadian city such as Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, Calgary, etc. From the article it seems the issue is that there isn't a big hospital near Tremblant - I've been skiing there a few times and it is quite isolated. I don't see how the differences in our health systems played a part here, since the problem seems to be hospital size and smaller/rural communities will have less equipped hospitals and fewer specialists regardless if they are American or Canadian.
 
I think it's a bit of monday morning quaterbacking. I was in a car accident a while ago and the local hospital did not have the capability to give me care and I live 10 miles outside of Philadelphia, a major us city.
I think it's a crap shot. Many doctors have already said the real problem is that head trauma is difficult to diagnosis because by the time symptoms occur it can be too late.
It's a tragic accident.
 
This kind of stuff is brought up alot after a freak accident like this was, but I think it stemmed from her not wanting medical help, and signing that waiver.

But, I also think they should of transported her via helicopter to NYC. I bet that might of changed things.
 
Hard to say since the original paramedics were turned away.

Once the amount of blood seeping into the brain gets to be too much, it doesn't matter where you are, the damage is done.

I remember reading that the NY Times later said she had called 911 TWO more times after initially turning away the paramedics, when she started to be in pain. an ambulance didn't arrive until after that second call TWO hours later. :sad2:

The resort, and according to one of the Mods here, (up in Canada,) on another thread, said the Canadian news origianlly stated Natasha got an ambulance within an hour, even after turning away the first one. Their news had also made it sound like she walked out of the resort and into the ambulance, like nothing was really wrong. We now know NONE of this was true. :mad:

She had been dying in front of her sons, while waiting for an ambulance. :sad2::sad1:
 
I remember reading that the NY Times later said she had called 911 TWO more times after initially turning away the paramedics, when she started to be in pain. an ambulance didn't arrive until after that second call TWO hours later. :sad2:

The resort, and according to one of the Mods here, (up in Canada,) on another thread, said the Canadian news origianlly stated Natasha got an ambulance within an hour, even after turning away the first one. Their news had also made it sound like she walked out of the resort and into the ambulance, like nothing was really wrong. We now know NONE of this was true. :mad:

She had been dying in front of her sons, while waiting for an ambulance. :sad2::sad1:

Oh. That's awful. I didn't know that. :( Those circumstances make it so much worse. :sad1:
 
From the article, it seems that problem is the Canadian healthcare system dictates what technology is available at each hospital. A CT scanner is a very common diagnostic device readily available at many US hospitals, even small ones.

Apparently, the first hospital wasn't aware of the gravity of her situation, otherwise, given her financial means, her family would have chartered a flight to get her to a hospital with sufficient resources to take care of her. The hospital had no way of knowing what her injuries here, since they didn't have the proper diagnostic equipment.

Jeepers, what do they do at that hospital, dispense band aids and tylenol?
 
It's too hard to say.

I didn't know who she was before she died and didn't pay much attention, but with that kind of injury (I understand she was a "talk and die") if there is too much blood then the brain has to move. There's only so much room in there.

Once the brain herniates down through the little hole at the bottom of the skull ("foramen magnum"), you're pretty much out of luck no matter what part of the planet you're on.

Could it have been caught in time to get the blood out so the brain didn't herniate? Maybe. And maybe it would have worked and maybe it wouldn't. Treatment is, at best, a crapshoot.

You all can google "increased intracranial pressure" if you wish to learn more about it.
 
My father dropped dead in our kitchen years ago from what we were told was "probably a heart attack" because in truth, the doctors were clueless as to what killed him out of the blue, while he was in the big middle of a sentence. Just dropped and died. We did CPR to no avail. We called an ambulance too, but we lived far away from the hospital AND the ambulance got lost. By the time it arrived, it was a good 25-30 minutes minimum after he'd dropped. Probably more. I was in shock by then, so details are a bit fuzzy.

Years later, the same exact thing happened to my sibling. Talking to someone, and just drops dead. The difference was, he was right by a hospital and someone did chest compressions until the ambulance arrived in just a few minutes. He had BEYOND a close call, and it took a while to figure out what was wrong. Only implanting a defibrillator saved him. It turned out we carry a genetic defect that can cause sudden death. We finally knew what killed our father.

If my brother had been at his house, he would be as dead as my father. For a brief while, he was as dead as my father. It's a miracle he survived. Too ornery to die....:rotfl2: If he hadn't been within a few minutes of a hospital, he'd be dead today. Heck, if he'd been driving in his car two minutes further down the road, he'd be dead and so would someone else, probably.

Location, location, location. Dumb luck saved him.
 
My MIL, who's in the healthcare industry, (retired now) thinks she would have lived if this had happened in colorado or new hampshire or utah...

Maybe. But folks have died in all those places in skiing accidents, and I'm not talking 10 years ago. It still happens, you just don't usually hear about it. Brain injury, avalanche, you name it, the stories are very sad.
 
Are you also aware that smaller community hospitals in the US may have the same delay? It is not uncommon for a small community hospital to have only a CT and no MRI? Some do not even have MRI! It would take in addition to that a neurosurgeon immediatly available (with a surgery suite and staff at the ready).

If you think that kind of care is immediatly aailable in all areas of the US, you are mistaken.

We live in a small community with a small community hospital. My mom is chronically ill. When the amblance picks her up, we take the risk to send her 15 minutes away to the better equipt hospital.

People die here as well for lack of immediate service.

But I will grant you if she had the accident by a full service Colorado hospital she would have stood a better chance. But to think it could not and does not happen here on a regular basis is wrong.

Very true. My aunt works at a small hospital near a few ski resorts and often they can't treat people with more severe injuries. But the hospital has access to an air ambulance system.
 
From the article, it seems that problem is the Canadian healthcare system dictates what technology is available at each hospital. A CT scanner is a very common diagnostic device readily available at many US hospitals, even small ones.

Apparently, the first hospital wasn't aware of the gravity of her situation, otherwise, given her financial means, her family would have chartered a flight to get her to a hospital with sufficient resources to take care of her. The hospital had no way of knowing what her injuries here, since they didn't have the proper diagnostic equipment.

Jeepers, what do they do at that hospital, dispense band aids and tylenol?

Well, FWIW, that happens here too. Every state has some regulations about what hospitals can "do" what. I just had a cardiac MRI at a hospital 30 minutes from my house instead the one 10 minutes away (where I work) because cardiac MRIs are only allowed at so many hospitals within the state.

I am a proponent of the "big plan" theory. On the day we're born, the day we are to die is already set.
 
Maybe, maybe not. The area I grew up in - in the US - we had to drive 40 minutes to a RURAL hospital. To get to a hospital with a MRI, it would have been a 70 mile drive.

Not one person in this world can look back and decide if she would have lived had she been in the US.

Let alone having a neurosurgeon available at the right hospital at the right time!
 
My MIL, who's in the healthcare industry, (retired now) thinks she would have lived if this had happened in colorado or new hampshire or utah...

An epidural bleed is an arterial bleed....bottom line is that even if immediate surgical intervention is at hand, the patient will rarely survive. This isn't a little brain bleed, this is a massive bleed.

We're talking extremely short time periods(minutes, not hours) to intervene for any chance of survival.
 
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