Would a nightly resort fee effect DVC?

[drusba]

Why would we assume that the resort's are not paying for DME? I am very sure that every WDW resort is being charged for it. In fact, having worked for a large corporation, it's a good bet that all the costs of transportation are cross charged to the various profit centers within Disney. I would be very surprised to see those costs "unbundled" from dues and charged as a resort fee.

The description of the Transportation charge in the annual budget as cost of WDW transportation provided to the resort is somewhat ambiguous as to whether that would include DME or is limited to on-site services. However, other things indicate it is already part of annual dues, including (a) that Disney appears to have an accounting process where the resorts are charged for services provided by Disney entites providing services to the resort, and (b) DVC has a rule that you must communicate with MS to set up DME, even though you can find a form on line on the general Disney site that can be used to order DME and the information you provide is where you are staying. That contact-MS requirement is likely to assure that the DVC portion of the resort is charged with DME service for a DVC reservation.

 

[CMNJ]

The description of the Transportation charge in the annual budget as cost of WDW transportation provided to the resort is somewhat ambiguous as to whether that would include DME or is limited to on-site services. However, other things indicate it is already part of annual dues, including (a) that Disney appears to have an accounting process where the resorts are charged for services provided by Disney entites providing services to the resort, and (b) DVC has a rule that you must communicate with MS to set up DME, even though you can find a form on line on the general Disney site that can be used to order DME and the information you provide is where you are staying. That contact-MS requirement is likely to assure that the DVC portion of the resort is charged with DME service for a DVC reservation.

Though not specifically itemized as part of our transportation costs does any DVC member honestly believe that The Disney corporation has been eating the costs of Magical express for all the DVC points reservations for the past 10-11 years they have offered this service? I find it very hard to believe that Disney has been that generous for so many years. If our dues don't fund our magical express costs who does? The parks division? DVD (the selling division of DVC) as a member perk? Or do we believe that cash guests at the WDW resorts are solely covering these costs?
Like many others I agree that it doesn't seem clear if we technically have paid for the privilege of FP at 60 days, EMH, and parking at theme parks. One would think that the resorts would have to reimburse the parks division for costs incurred but there isn't anything clearly listed in the budget so perhaps it was a free perk. Since it has nothing to do with the actual resorts we own I could see them charging for those benefits if we haven't been paying already.
I'm not naive enough to think Disney couldn't start charging us fees associated with our timeshare usage. As many others have noted other timeshares do have various fees for different items. All I am saying is that legally I don't believe they can charge twice for the same amenities. Our dues are based on operating costs for our home resort (and other things like property taxes). Unless they have been giving us all this for free we already pay for these items through dues. If they then separate the charges out for these items our dues would have to decrease to offset this new revenue.

 

[disneynutz]

Though not specifically itemized as part of our transportation costs does any DVC member honestly believe that The Disney corporation has been eating the costs of Magical express for all the DVC points reservations for the past 10-11 years they have offered this service? I find it very hard to believe that Disney has been that generous for so many years. If our dues don't fund our magical express costs who does? The parks division? DVD (the selling division of DVC) as a member perk? Or do we believe that cash guests at the WDW resorts are solely covering these costs?
Like many others I agree that it doesn't seem clear if we technically have paid for the privilege of FP at 60 days, EMH, and parking at theme parks. One would think that the resorts would have to reimburse the parks division for costs incurred but their isn't anything clearly listed in the budget so perhaps it was a free perk. Since it has nothing to do with the actual resorts we own I could see them charging for those benefits if we haven't been paying already.
I'm not naive enough to think Disney couldn't start charging us fees associated with our timeshare usage. As many others have noted other timeshares do have various fees for different items. All I am saying is that legally I don't believe they can charge twice for the same amenities. Our dues are based on operating costs for our home resort (and other things like property taxes). Unless they have been giving us all this for free we already pay for these items through dues. If they then separate the charges out for these items our dues would have to decrease to offset this new revenue.

As mentioned, DME for DVC is supposed to be reserved by DVC for a reason, IMO so DVC can keep track of transportation money to be transferred to the Disney DME account.

Seems to me that keeping track of DVC budget items is a crap shoot at best when breaking out what DVC uses and what other guests use. One example is how do they determine what our utility bills are when many are shared?

Bill

 

[zavandor]

To make us pay 15$ resort fee they would have to demonstrate that all the services they include in that fee weren't included in the MF until today. Since we already pay a transport fee, they would have to demonstrate that it doesn't include the DME. So they would have to show members how they calculate the transport fee. The same for all other fees.
Would they want to open the Pandora's box of detailing their budget? I don't think so.

Personally, I loathe Resort Fees. If possible I avoid hotels which change them and if I cannot do without, I leave a review on Trip Advisor lowering the score by one star (as recently suggested by Tom Bricker in his blog).

 

[Dean Marino]

Now that I have had some time to think about it, my conclusion is that, assuming Disney decides to charge a nightly resort fee that is designed to cover all the cost items mentioned as being part of the charge in the survey, then it is unlikley there will be such a nightly resort fee charged to DVC owners. Besides that all or some of the cost items may already be included in annual dues, the only way they could be charged to members as combined in one "resort fee" is as a common expense charged as part of the annual budget and dues.

The $15 nightly room fee in the survey is designed to cover Disney's Magical Express, MagicBands, FastPass+, Resort entertainment, WiFi, Extra Magic Hours, and parking at the resort and parks. It raises three issues for charging it as a nightly resort fee to owners staying at a resort: (a) is it something that is already included in dues and thus cannot be charged; (b) if not something already included in dues does it have to be included in annual dues if it is going to be a fee that can be charged to members; and (c) is it legal to charge members for the identified costs.

It appears likely that many, and possibly all, of the listed costs are already charges that are included in annual dues. The fact that Disney wants to make it a resort fee itself indicates that it has already been accounting for the listed charges by charging them to the resorts, with the result that the association budget would have already included the costs. DME should be included in the Transportation cost item and WiFi in utilities, Magic Bands, since they are associated with the resort as room keys, would likely be in the general "other expenses" that the association needs to cover in the budget, see Bylaws section VI.1. Resort entertainment would likely be included in Member Activities as a charge for rent of recreational and other common facilities at the resort, id. The outliers are costs of Fastpass+, extra magic hours and parking at the parks, but I am guessing those are things actually already being charged to the operations of the resort and thus things the association may be charging as other expenses as operational support items in the administrative budget item. Thus, at least for some of the items and possibly all that are mentioned, they are already included in dues, and charging members a resort fee would be improper double billing. Moreover, the association budget needs to be based on costs of the services, not costs plus a profit.

Even if any of the items are not currently charged to members in the annual dues, they really cannot be added as a nightly resort fee payable by all the members when they stay at the resort. It is possible that some of suggested charges could be made to members and others based on actual use of the service, e.g., a member could be required to pay a parking fee when he parks at the parks, or a DME fee when he uses DME, or an extra fee for Extra Magic Hours when he goes. However, to do that Disney would have to take any related charges already in the annual budget out of the budget. To charge the costs as some combined resort fee chargeable to all members when they stay at the resort makes it a common ecpense of the resort. The DVC resorts are not Disney Hotels to which Disney can just tack on a nightly resort fee when it feels like it.The resorts are legally the responsibility of the applicable DVC association (and its chosen management company, DVCMC) and if there is to be some general resort fee to cover the costs of any items provided by another Disney entity, the only way it can get charged to the members is as a common expense which legally must be part of the annual budget and charged as part of annual dues, not as some nightly fee.

Finally, there is one charge I doubt can legally be charged to WDW DVC owners at all, even as part of annual dues, and that is a fee to park at the resort (other than assisted parking like valet). When you purchase, you get an ownership interest in the common elements and a right to use those, and also the obligation to contribute dues to maintain them. That right alone might not be enough to avoid rental charges for items at the resort, but for parking there is a separate right. As part of the purchase, owners are granted an easement to the roadways, walkways and parking lots at the resort which includes a right to park in available parking spaces. See, e.g., Declarations 4.1(c). Since you paid in full for that easement right as part of the purchase price, Disney should not now legally be allowed to start charging additional fees for owners to park at the DVC resorts.

Good analysis. Again - WHAT IS IN THE CONTRACT? Issues of this ilk are WHY people enter into contracts. Put another way - try to imagine what would happen to DVC CONTRACTS if people began to perceive that the contracts could be unilaterally altered, and their costs would in fact, go up with time?

If you said "DVC failure?" Good for you . This entire issue is the BASIS of DVC . Of COURSE WDW could impose this on DVC members - the class action suit would drag on for years. But in the meantime? "No DVC for YOU!" (or soup) . Few wise corporations cut their own throats.

 

[freediverdude]

Description of Cost Components:


1. Administration and Front Desk - Cost of front desk operations and resort management, including

operating supplies and equipment rental. Also includes costs for operational and administrative

support from the WALT DISNEY WORLD® Resort (“WDW”).

2. Annual Audit - Fee for the independent audit of the Association’s financial statements as required by

Florida law.

3. DVC Reservation Component - Fee paid to Buena Vista Trading Company for providing the exchange

component of the Club central reservation system.

4. Fees to the Division - Annual fee of $2 per Vacation Home per week assessed by the State of Florida for

regulation of the timeshare industry in Florida.

5. Housekeeping - Cost of cleaning Vacation Homes and public areas and replacement of disposable

amenities in Vacation Homes. Also includes the purchase, replacement and cleaning of linens and

towels.

6. Income Taxes - Federal income taxes. Timeshare condominium associations may not claim non-profit

status for federal income tax purposes under current regulations.

7. Insurance - Cost of insurance premiums for property coverage, general liability, workers’ compensation,

crime and Director’s and Officer’s liability.

8. Legal - Cost of legal counsel regarding Association business.

9. Maintenance - Cost of interior and exterior maintenance and repairs not paid for out of replacement

reserves. Also includes landscaping, pest control and fire alarm monitoring.

10. Management Fee - Fee paid to DVCMC for providing management services to the Association according

to the Property Management Agreement. The fee is equal to 12 percent of the total Operating Budget

(total operating expenses less the sum of interest income, Member late fees and interest, and breakage

income) and Capital Reserve Budget exclusive of transportation fees and the management fee.

11. Member Activities - Cost of recreation operations, certain Member activities and events at the Resort.

Cost of quarterly Member newsletter, annual Association meetings and printing and postage for

Association legal mailings.

12. Security - Cost of guard coverage at the Resort.

13. Transportation - Cost of WDW transportation provided to the Resort.

14. Utilities - Cost of electricity, gas, water, sewer, solid waste disposal, cable television and telephone

service at the Resort.

The above is the description of expenses listed on the BLT 2016 budget. I know this not the contract, I still haven't dug it out. Looks like we already pay for transportation and recreation activities.

I know this seems picky, but that description on item 13 saying "Cost of WDW transportation provided to the resort" makes me think it doesn't include ME. To me, WDW transportation would be internal buses, boats, and monorails, not external contracted that travels partially outside WDW like ME. But maybe they aren't that legal with their wording in this situation, and meant just a general description.

 

[disneynutz]

I know this seems picky, but that description on item 13 saying "Cost of WDW transportation provided to the resort" makes me think it doesn't include ME. To me, WDW transportation would be internal buses, boats, and monorails, not external contracted that travels partially outside WDW like ME. But maybe they aren't that legal with their wording in this situation, and meant just a general description.

We don't know and Disney doesn't want to share.

Bill

 

[Dean]

I know this seems picky, but that description on item 13 saying "Cost of WDW transportation provided to the resort" makes me think it doesn't include ME. To me, WDW transportation would be internal buses, boats, and monorails, not external contracted that travels partially outside WDW like ME. But maybe they aren't that legal with their wording in this situation, and meant just a general description.

My understanding is that resorts pay for their own direct transportation like busses and boats not general system wide transportation. I've been told in the past that ME is paid for directly by Disney, I believe as part of their marketing budget.

 

[CMNJ]

My understanding is that resorts pay for their own direct transportation like busses and boats not general system wide transportation. I've been told in the past that ME is paid for directly by Disney, I believe as part of their marketing budget.

Wow I'm shocked-that is a big "marketing" expense if so-no wonder they are looking to move that into a "resort fee" if that has really been the case all these years.

 

[delmarjohn]

While stating at aulani hotel guest pay for parking and DVC is free,on that basis I feel a precedent has been set that DVC is immune to this an resort fees as far as DME is concerned what happens if you don't use it lets say you rent a car or use a towncar service..you pay for something you don't use just because it falls under the heading of a catch all fee,when we stay at marriotts there is no resort fee you pay for parking and the wifi is free,I believe Disney would hurt their own brand by charging DVC members with a resort fee,especially while paying dues and collecting money from hotel guests,the money grab has to stop...maybe they should just sell ESPN before it takes down the whole company.....

 

[Dean Marino]

I know this seems picky, but that description on item 13 saying "Cost of WDW transportation provided to the resort" makes me think it doesn't include ME. To me, WDW transportation would be internal buses, boats, and monorails, not external contracted that travels partially outside WDW like ME. But maybe they aren't that legal with their wording in this situation, and meant just a general description.

Probably true . ME is INDEED an external contract - currently "complementary", but (as far as I can tell) not an explicit contract item. Oddly, years ago, my wife & I noted this when we bought into DVC. A little like a pension: What is EXPLICITLY in the contract? An analogy - Medical Insurance is rarely an EXPLICIT item in a pension contract .

Now - an issue that COULD occur (not for us - for WDW).....

Should MEARS offer a transportation service to/from WDW Hotels, that costs less that a "daily resort fee"? Things could get complicated . We've USED MEARS directly - fairly long ago. They would not be strangers to this model - just reverting back to what they USED to do .

Now - to put a little POSITIVE light on this.... what happens if WDW decides to bundle Monorail and Shuttle Bus service into the RESORT Fee? (I hear the sound of gasps ).

 

[jodifla]

I think Disney would seriously damage their ability to sell DVC if they started imposing extra fees. I didn't sign up for extra mandatory fees. I've paid off my initial costs, and my dues are controlled by contract.

If they can start throwing resort fees on this, it's rather meaning less to own DVC. Today's daily $15 is $75 six years from now.

 

[disneynutz]

I think Disney would seriously damage their ability to sell DVC if they started imposing extra fees. I didn't sign up for extra mandatory fees. I've paid off my initial costs, and my dues are controlled by contract.

If they can start throwing resort fees on this, it's rather meaning less to own DVC. Today's daily $15 is $75 six years from now.

They threw the $95 booking fee, resale rule changes, waitlist rule changes, banking deadline rule changes, and reallocations of points at various resorts after many of us bought so to me that indicates that they can do pretty much what they want.

Bill

 

[Dean]

I think Disney would seriously damage their ability to sell DVC if they started imposing extra fees. I didn't sign up for extra mandatory fees. I've paid off my initial costs, and my dues are controlled by contract.

If they can start throwing resort fees on this, it's rather meaning less to own DVC. Today's daily $15 is $75 six years from now.

I doubt it'd matter much and I think the members think they're a lot more concerned than they really are. We could point to a number of issues over the last few years that are far more egregious than this would be that suggest this to be true. If they instituted it system wide, I don't think it'd be a big deal to add it to DVC stays as well.

 

[jodifla]

They threw the $95 booking fee, resale rule changes, waitlist rule changes, banking deadline rule changes, and reallocations of points at various resorts after many of us bought so to me that indicates that they can do pretty much what they want.

Bill

None of that is out of my pocket, though, when I book a regular trip with my points. The selling point there, and my guide used it, was that everything, including taxes, would be paid for. I expect to walk out of my DVC vacations at my resorts with no bill. That's the deal I felt I made with DVC.

 

[jodifla]

I doubt it'd matter much and I think the members think they're a lot more concerned than they really are. We could point to a number of issues over the last few years that are far more egregious than this would be that suggest this to be true. If they instituted it system wide, I don't think it'd be a big deal to add it to DVC stays as well.

What's more egregious?

Again, that 15 buck fee is going to be 75 in a heartbeat. You don't think people who are already paying dues are going to want to pay another $500 to stay for a week?

 

[Dean]

None of that is out of my pocket, though, when I book a regular trip with my points. The selling point there, and my guide used it, was that everything, including taxes, would be paid for. I expect to walk out of my DVC vacations at my resorts with no bill. That's the deal I felt I made with DVC.

It's irrelevant what you thought you were agreeing to or how the guide enticed you to commit. As you've worded it that is not the deal you made. The deal we made is what is included in the POS including the change options and DVC control.

What's more egregious?

Again, that 15 buck fee is going to be 75 in a heartbeat. You don't think people who are already paying dues are going to want to pay another $500 to stay for a week?

IMO there are a number of examples of choices that upset members that are far more than this would be. They include several refurbishment situations, changes in the reservation method to 7 days (though turned out to be a good thing overall), valet parking change, and several reallocations. While I wouldn't be surprise if it started at $15 (if they did it which isn't very likely) and increased, $75 in todays dollars is an unreasonable guess IMO. I'm sure some have sold or not bought because of some of the issues along the lines of what I mentioned but DVC is still going strong. IMO a resort fee is consistent with the overall setup and with other areas that offer somewhat similar options (as much as one can compare). It's not $500, by the time you back out the things that we're already paying for directly, it's maybe $100 to $150 (under $100 as currently surveyed). And if one members let's it be the last straw and sells, another will take their place if they sell.

 

[ain0004]

I have to say this....on my last Disney cruise in 2015. They were selling Poly.,,they made a reference to staying at poly without DVC. And mentioned a resort fee....they pushed that if you bought DVC. You would avoid the resort fee. And your quote fees are in your annual dues. I literally attended 3 sales pitches. Not going to lie I wanted the on board credit. (Which I got in the end). I don't know how I feel about a resort fee. If it's 20.00 for length of stay no big deal. If it's per night. My DVC days are going to be numbered

 

[CarolMN]

I have to say this....on my last Disney cruise in 2015. They were selling Poly.,,they made a reference to staying at poly without DVC. And mentioned a resort fee....they pushed that if you bought DVC. You would avoid the resort fee. And your quote fees are in your annual dues. I literally attended 3 sales pitches. Not going to lie I wanted the on board credit. (Which I got in the end). I don't know how I feel about a resort fee. If it's 20.00 for length of stay no big deal. If it's per night. My DVC days are going to be numbered

It would be interesting to know their response if you asked them to put "no resort fee at DVC Resorts while using your membership" in writing.

 

[Dean]

It would be interesting to know their response if you asked them to put "no resort fee at DVC Resorts while using your membership" in writing.

They wouldn't, actually they couldn't. I'm sure DVC doesn't allow alterations to the contract.