Winds and Castaway cay

[tnkrbell]

what wind speed typically isctoo strong to dock at castaway Cay?? This weekend looks like high winds

 

[PrincessShmoo]

what wind speed typically isctoo strong to dock at castaway Cay?? This weekend looks like high winds

It's not just the winds, it's the tides.

 

[Capt_BJ]

Close .......

it is not just the speed ... it is the DIRECTION

tides are NOT a factor ..... I sailed this area for MANY years ..... tides are not an issue.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Close .......

it is not just the speed ... it is the DIRECTION

tides are NOT a factor ..... I sailed this are for MANY year ..... tides are not an issue.

I knew "tides" wasn't what I was wanting to say. But, how the water is affected by the wind. Not just the wind locally, but further away. I believe the seas can be rough without a lot of wind on location, correct?

 

[Capt_BJ]

the term you are looking for is 'fetch' which when used as a noun is the distance traveled by wind or waves. And yes a long 'fetch' will impact waves in particular altho the distances involved are typically huge ... this is why 20 foot seas in the Pacific don't seem as severe as similar heights in the Atlantic. In the north Atlantic a short fetch leaves the seas steep, while the long fetch in the Pacific provides time for the sea to 'stretch' ... develop a longer period yielding a shallower 'face' to the swell/wave.

But that really doesn't come into play at Gorda Cay - the navigational name of the island where CC is. Find it on a chart and you'll see that it is surrounded by land masses and/or shallow waters which prevent significant waves from forming.

IME as a ship captain, and having sat down with a couple of DCL masters after failed attempts to get into CC, the primary consideration is the wind - which I've written about b4 here. The approach to the pier at CC is short but VERY NARROW. Outside of this channel the water is shallow. The 'edges' are like walls of rock. If strong wind causes the ship to creep sideways, the combined thruster power available can't overcome the wind. Add to this the fact that the thrusters lose force when the ship is moving, and the loss is more pronounced when moving astern as compared to when going forward. This is why the captains will normally BACK in. They have more 'power' to fight the wind when going forward. If conditions are marginal but they can BACK in ... they KNOW they will almost ALWAYS have sufficient power to get out - going ahead. The reverse is simply not true. If there was a wider area to work with, or tugs available (and room for them to work) the situation might change but for now .....

Here's the pier and channel ....

 

[tnkrbell]

the term you are looking for is 'fetch' which when used as a noun is the distance traveled by wind or waves. And yes a long 'fetch' will impact waves in particular altho the distances involved are typically huge ... this is why 20 foot seas in the Pacific don't seem as severe as similar heights in the Atlantic. In the north Atlantic a short fetch leaves the seas steep, while the long fetch in the Pacific provides time for the sea to 'stretch' ... develop a longer period yielding a shallower 'face' to the swell/wave.

But that really doesn't come into play at Gorda Cay - the navigational name of the island where CC is. Find it on a chart and you'll see that it is surrounded by land masses and/or shallow waters which prevent significant waves from forming.

IME as a ship captain, and having sat down with a couple of DCL masters after failed attempts to get into CC, the primary consideration is the wind - which I've written about b4 here. The approach to the pier at CC is short but VERY NARROW. Outside of this channel the water is shallow. The 'edges' are like walls of rock. If strong wind causes the ship to creep sideways, the combined thruster power available can't overcome the wind. Add to this the fact that the thrusters lose force when the ship is moving, and the loss is more pronounced when moving astern as compared to when going forward. This is why the captains will normally BACK in. They have more 'power' to fight the wind when going forward. If conditions are marginal but they can BACK in ... they KNOW they will almost ALWAYS have sufficient power to get out - going ahead. The reverse is simply not true. If there was a wider area to work with, or tugs available (and room for them to work) the situation might change but for now .....

Here's the pier and channel ....

Thank you so much for the explanation. It's showing Sat the winds are expected to be EnE 22 miles an hour

 

[chaseg03]

Thank you so much for the explanation. It's showing Sat the winds are expected to be EnE 22 miles an hour

This was close to the last cruise I was on. We couldn't dock the first time. We went out to sea, turned back around, and were able to dock.

 

[Tractortom]

I live in South Florida, which is really not all that far from CC and we have been fighting pretty high winds everyday for the past 3 weeks or so, with no real break in sight. The good news is, the winds are down quite a bit in the early morning when the ship is usually headed to the pier. As the day warms the wind picks up. Yesterday morning I rode my bicycle to work in an almost dead calm at 7am, but by 5 on the way home it was blowing about 10 to 15 from the ENE.

 

[kiford]

Thanks so much to Capt_BJ for that great explanation - I`ve always wondered why they backed in. DH always jokes it`s so that they don`t back into another ship they didn`t see in the rear view mirror when leaving (that`s why you`re not a ship`s captain is what I tell him). Also thanks for the photo - you can really see the channel so clearly.

We`ve always been able to dock - a bit late sometimes and a bit touch and go a couple of times. However, we`ve had a lot of our excursions cancelled because of high winds and waves (e.g., parasailing). It can also feel surprisingly cold on the island when the winds are high. The temperatures might be in the 80`s but it feels like it`s in the 60`s so you need to be prepared for that.

 

[Joel0917]

we were on Fantasy last week...so CC day was Friday april 7. They couldn't dock in the am because of the cross current. Tried for about 60 minutes back and forth. So they pulled out at about 845 am and tried again 45 minutes later. we made it that time. but it was a very very slow go unlike previous cruises. we were able to get off ship about 1045 i believe. Lunch was delayed til 1230 and they added 45 minutes to the all aboard time.

 

[Capt_BJ]

but it was a very very slow go unlike previous cruises

you have NO IDEA how hard the Master is working to get you in to the pier under these conditions ......

when I've discussed this with DCL Masters I've said "I'd have given up"

and the DCL Master said, you didn't work for Disney or have a ship full of potentially p'offed passengers

 

[Trera]

You would think they could have some tenders on standby just in case the boat can't get docked at the pier.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

You would think they could have some tenders on standby just in case the boat can't get docked at the pier.

If the ship can't dock due to the wind, I wouldn't want to attempt boarding and traveling in a tender into port.

 

[Sytrace]

You would think they could have some tenders on standby just in case the boat can't get docked at the pier.

There have been recent cruises where the ship could not stop at Caymans because conditions were poor and there could be no tendering due to safety concerns. The winds and the water seem small to a huge ship , but those tendering boats would be hard pressed to hold position to get people off safely.

 

[tigerchic89]

Cptn BJ, TY for the info. I find it fascinating. I have another question, does the size of the Disney ship affect (Fantasy v Wonder) its ability to dock in those windy and "pitchy" conditions? Or are both type ships so large that it's not significant?

I had heard that Disney dug out that channel at CC so that tenders would not be necessary. How is digging of a channel done? Anyone know how much the expense was to make that channel? Is it reinforced in any way? I've always been curious about that as the surrounding sea floor seems so shallow and the channel looks so deep.

 

[tigerchic89]

Also, to the cruiser concerned about the winds next week, we sailed last week and heard that Fantasy had a hard time docking on Friday. We were on the Wonder and we docked at cc the next day (Sat) with no problems (no wind)

 

[KristiMc]

You would think they could have some tenders on standby just in case the boat can't get docked at the pier.

They would also have to have tenders for all of the food and such that they take off the ship that we enjoy while on the island. Would be a nightmare.

 

[Capt_BJ]

does the size of the Disney ship affect (Fantasy v Wonder) its ability to dock in those windy and "pitchy" conditions? Or are both type ships so large that it's not significant?

cruise ships in general have a lot of "sail area" ... structure above the water line that gets impacted by wind, as compared to some other types of ships. Large fully loaded container ships and modern automobile carriers have the same issue. There is a tradeoff between putting in enuf side thruster power to overcome strong beam winds on major 'sail area', and cost/space. Note the aircraft carriers don't try to dock without the use of tugs .... they use that space and 'power' for other things.

I had heard that Disney dug out that channel at CC so that tenders would not be necessary.

DCL was the first to put in a pier at their 'private island' so as to eliminate 'tendering'. It was immediately popular and copied .... LABADEE for RCL was given a pier and I understand piers are under consideration for COCO CAY and NCLs Island (both close neighbors to CC)

How is digging of a channel done?

Brute force excavation. Take a look at the Port Canaveral web cam and you'll see PAULA LEE working in the harbor right now ... your basic 'steam shovel' digging up the bottom, depositing in a barge to be hauled somewhere for dumping ... the bottom here is soft. When the bottom is hard rock, different types of dredges are used and even blasting is not unheard of. Either way the process is very destructive to the ecosystem. recently a developer dug a long channel and built a pier in Bimini which caused major uproar for the damage done to the surrounding area. Cayman tourist industry is still arguing about the befit of a cruise pier versus the damage which would be done to the surrounding reefs which are a major reason people GO to Cayman. When DCL was developing CC and digging as they did, they were out of sight as the area was 'nothing' b4 ..... would that still happen today?

Anyone know how much the expense was to make that channel? No idea but $$$$ is obvious, even for something so small in comparison to “real” harbors and channels which can extend many miles.


Is it reinforced in any way? I've always been curious about that as the surrounding sea floor seems so shallow and the channel looks so deep.

because the area at CC IS hard rock, the channel is pretty stable. Similar examples are Port Everglades and Government Cut in Miami where the channel walls are near vertical walls of solid rock .... very little maintenance dredging is necessary. But Canaveral is soft and you see artificial sea walls and almost constant dredging to maintain the 'minimum depth'. PE and POM need maintenance in the approach channels but little IN the harbors, the approach is thru relatively shallow, soft bottom areas and dredged channels here fill in over time. At CC the bottom drops away VERY FAST ... this is why the channel is so short and why a pier was a good idea ... there is not a good anchorage.

{very simplified on all points!}

a couple of additional visual aids

note all the extra room with a ship at the pier ...



if you know how to read a chart, Gorda is at the top ... note the depth contours ...

below and left is Great Stirrup and Little Stirrup, NCL and RCL respectively, note depth contoures here are much gentler ... there is decent anchorage and a pier is easier to built

 

[jrabbit]

@tigerchic89 Re: Cost to Dredge ....

Back BEFORE DCL started sailing, they did promo tours to travel agencies to drum up business. One of the HUGE selling points of DCL back then was that the ship docked and you could walk on / off whenever you felt like it. (along with the split bathrooms, Mickey & Co., etc)

and the cost was mentioned ... but only in general ... The Dock and Dredging cost Disney more than the cost of the island itself.

 

[Capt_BJ]

The Dock and Dredging cost Disney more than the cost of the island itself.

from what I understand, DCL has a long term lease .... they were not allowed to "buy" the land