will the draft be reininstated?

[N.Bailey]

Originally posted by jennyanydots
Earth to N. Bailey, you need a reality check. You'd have us believe that all the women in the military are muscular, masculine amazons for whom the "don't ask don't tell" policy was invented. What a slap in the face to the women who proudly serve their country.

Or are they simply better human beings than you are?


I've met several women in the military. (I've also met women who serve in the police force and the fire department -- a similar situation.) when they take off their uniforms at the end of the work day, they go home to the same concerns you and I do. I read the profiles of many of the women serving in Iraq -- they run the gamut from young women trying to earn money for college, single mothers trying to make a better life for their children, married women who have made a career of the military -- in short, the full spectrum of American womanhood.

Earth to jennyanydots, until you say you either served in the military, or you acknowledge you've got a daughter/grand daughter or someone who would be effected by this decision, then you're opinion is moot to me. I think anyone can say what they wish, but till you're showing what sacrifice you'd be making by this action, your opinion is worthless. It's easy to say yeah, yeah, yeah, if you or your child isn't going to be harmed by the action. If you say you've got a daughter, or you too might be drafted, then I'll respond.

 

[I <3 Eeyore]

And to answer your other questions, sure, I'm willing to give up my rights and my daughter's rights to all that you've listed here, the day everyone else that has them gives them up if they've not served too!

So if someone tried to enlist and was rejected for one reason or another they aren't entitled to equal rights? I think there's a big difference between not serving and refusing to serve. Whether or not a person served in the military has nothing to do with their ability to form an opinion on what is just.

This debate is about whether women should be required to register and serve in the event of a draft. At this point in time it is still a volunteer military and has been for some time. Pointing fingers at people who didn't enlist in the past is absurd and not germaine to the argument.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by N.Bailey
Earth to jennyanydots, until you say you either served in the military, or you acknowledge you've got a daughter/grand daughter or someone who would be effected by this decision, then you're opinion is moot to me. I think anyone can say what they wish, but till you're showing what sacrifice you'd be making by this action, your opinion is worthless. It's easy to say yeah, yeah, yeah, if you or your child isn't going to be harmed by the action. If you say you've got a daughter, or you too might be drafted, then I'll respond.

I'm sorry, but that is just silly. People that don't have children or who only have sons or those that have served in the military are the only ones that are qualified to answer the question?

What about those of us that have daughters AND sons that would be affected by this - do WE get a say in the matter?

And for the love of God, would someone, ANYONE tell me why they value their daughter's lives more than they value their son's lives? I value both of my children equally, and I think it's appalling that so many people are saying they could deal with sending a son off to war but not a daughter.

 

[I <3 Eeyore]

And for the love of God, would someone, ANYONE tell me why they value their daughter's lives more than they value their son's lives?

I can't help you with that one. The logic kinda escapes me, too.

 

[N.Bailey]

Originally posted by I <3 Eeyore
I'm sorry for the challenges you faced in childhood but I think you probably learned many valuable life skills as a result. It's too bad that what you're teaching her isn't going to do anything that would ever make her a good soldier.

Some of the things my daughter was taught were:

a solid work ethic, moral codes and values, self-sufficiency, do the right thing - not the easy thing, think for yourself (although this may seem counter to the military way - she never found herself up on charges for abusing POW's), the value of a good education, a sense of humour, teamwork, respect for herself and respect for others.

What I taught her (and her siblings) were skills to help her be successful as a person, not just as a soldier. As a result, she's a great soldier, a talented journalist, and a hell of a woman who enjoys getting her hair done and polishing her nails as much as any other 'girly girl'.

I wasn't looking for sympathy at all. I was just explaining my reasoning for the why's my kids wouldn't be put into those same types of situations. You're right though, I grew up fast, and I didn't come away from the experience in a frail state. It really made me learn how to stand on my own two feet at a young age.

As to what you feel you've taught your children. These issues are no different from what my children learn. My husband is getting ready to receive an award for not missing a single days work in 10 years. How's that for work ethic? In 10 years at my former job, the only time I ever reported off was, the week my mother died, the week my step daddy died, and once when I was really sick. I also worked (waiting tables to boot) till 1 week before I delivered both of my children. I only gave it up then because my boss required a dr. excuse for me to continue and my doc wouldn't give me one either time.

I teach them about taking responsibility for their actions too. Once my son and his cousin were playing in their Mamaw's (grandmother) car (while she was in Germany) and pulled it out of gear. My son was behind the wheel, my nephew hanging off the door encouraging him. They did several hundred dollars worth of damage to the car. My nephew lied his butt off and said he wasn't there. My son, although it was the toughest thing he'd ever done in his life, told him Mamaw what he had done (with tears in his eyes) and took $800 of our his personal savings (we replaced it, my son does not know it however) and gave it to her to get her car fixed. His Mamaw left his cousin get away with it because she wouldn't call him a liar, but she knows he was involved. Their Mamaw knows what my son did and how hard it was, but she'll believe him when he says something any day over his cousin, and she is always doing stuff for my son! I could tell other stories, but that's just one about accepting responsibility!

So please don't say that while I might watch their back so to speak, that they're not also learning some of life's lessons too!

 

[N.Bailey]

Originally posted by I <3 Eeyore

Careful, since you can't prove that here it makes your claim suspect in some people's eyes.

I didn't call anyone a liar. Do you believe that people on a message board don't twist some facts or just out right lie to make their point at times? I don't take anything I read on here as fact! You're the one that's a little gullible if you do!

 

[Rutt and Tuke]

Originally posted by N.Bailey
I didn't call anyone a liar. Do you believe that people on a message board don't twist some facts or just out right lie to make their point at times? I don't take anything I read on here as fact! You're the one that's a little gullible if you do!

I just wanted to say that I didn't respond to the Eeyore person's remark, because I don't really care if you believe me or not. I know the truth of the matter.

Hell, if I was going to lie, I could have said I served. LOL

Do we really KNOW that AFR is in the air force?

 

[I <3 Eeyore]

I wasn't looking for sympathy at all.

So please don't say that while I might watch their back so to speak, that they're not also learning some of life's lessons too!

Do you believe that people on a message board don't twist some facts or just out right lie to make their point at times? I don't take anything I read on here as fact! You're the one that's a little gullible if you do!

Well then, I'll certainly be mighty careful about believing what you...people might say here on the DIS. You...they might possibly lie to prove your...their point. How did I ever manage to make it to this point in life...gullible fool that I am?

 

[Evil Princess]

Thank you, N.Bailey, for attempting to defend me. I was at work today and didn't have a chance to jump into the discussion.

Unfortunately, the people on this thread will never see anyone's side but their own. I respect their opinion, I understand where they're comming from, but still they insist on exaggerating everything and bringing up the same points over and over no matter how many times they might be proven false.

The women who enlist in the services DO NOT represent the majority of the women in this country. That is not my opinion, it's the truth, and if you don't like it that's just fine. Just because you are capeable of serving does not mean that I am. Congratulations, you're stronger than I am (and I mean that with no hint of sarcasm).

This country is not ready to have women be drafted. You can argue all you want that we're fighting for equal rights and equal means being drafted, but I hardly consider equal pay and right to vote preparation for serving in the military. They are physically and emotionally two totally different things.

We are not ready for our mothers, daughters, sisters, and aunts to be drafted just as we are not ready if...say we got rid of the drinking age. Yeah, Isreal forces women to serve and it works fine...and yeah, there's no drinking age in Italy and it works fine....but both of these things would NOT work fine if they happened here overnight.

I hope someone understands what I'm saying.

 

[AirForceRocks]

You can argue all you want that we're fighting for equal rights and equal means being drafted, but I hardly consider equal pay and right to vote preparation for serving in the military.

Where in the world did anyone say that equal pay and the right to vote prepares someone for serving in the military? What we have said is that if you value those rights, you should be willing to fight alongside men to retain them. And if you aren't willing to fight for them, then perhaps you really don't deserve to have them.

 

[I <3 Eeyore]

but still they insist on exaggerating everything and bringing up the same points over and over no matter how many times they might be proven false.

Could you please provide me with this proof? I missed that post.

but I hardly consider equal pay and right to vote preparation for serving in the military.

Equal pay and the right to vote were supposed to be preparation for serving in the military? Equal rights - equal responsibility. No more - no less.

The women who enlist in the services DO NOT represent the majority of the women in this country. That is not my opinion, it's the truth

Again, do you have any evidence to support that? If not, then it is exactly that, your opinion. You're certainly entitled to it but I'm just as certainly going to disagree with it.

 

[I <3 Eeyore]

AFR, are we sharing a brain tonight?

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by I <3 Eeyore
AFR, are we sharing a brain tonight?

If so, you can have it before I go to work tomorrow...after all, I'm sure that there will be some big, strong, smart man there to perform my duties for me...

 

[N.Bailey]

I didn't respond to your previous post Rutt and Tuke, because I thought I could cover two birds with one stone in this one.

Originally posted by ToriLammy
Please explain to me how I was not typical of the women across the is nation? I'm about as average as you get. Do women who enlist have a big sense of responsibility? Are you saying women across the nation don't? Or are you implying that we are somehow more mannish than women across the nation? I'm really curious as to how you know that I'm not typical and what exactly you say is typical. Please enlighten us.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say average? You're talking physical characteristics? I wasn't referring to the build of your body, or your physical appearance in anyway. I'm sure people that are quite over weight might be an exception, but I'd think that would revert back to them feeling they couldn't physically handle a position in the military. I was referring more to the mindset of someone who would enlist. Most women do not even think about military as an option for them. Sure, there are some that do, but they're certainly not the majority. If you'd ask the typical high school women if she'd given any thought to joining the military, I bet you'd find that most never even considered it. There are some such as Rutt and Tuke, who gave it thought for the educational expenses that would have been covered. That is why Jessica Lynch enlisted too. I'm sure she never considered the idea of ending up in the situation she had to endure. I don't think people who enlist have the same mentality of those who don't. Granted, I feel that those who do have a better grounding on moral ethics than those that don't.

It's been said many times that the military will make a man out of a boy (sorry to all you women, I didn't write the phrase) and I believe it 100%. We (my husband and I) come from a long line of military men in our families too. My FIL is retired military too. He married a German women and my husband and his brothers and sisters were born in Europe. His Opa (grandfather) served in WW2 under Hitler!! My husband and 2 of his brothers both served our country. My husband in the Marine Corps and his brothers in the Army. One brother was denied because he had tubes in his ears when he was younger, but he tried to get in. My brother served. My Stepfather served and was stationed in either Iceland or Greenland (I forget) and got gang green and had to have his leg amputated. Even my low life, loser, father served! I could go on with cousin after cousin too! With the exception of my father, I think all of these men walked away stronger and better people for having served! There was simply no hope for him!

I don't disagree with you in your earlier thread that men and women in the general population should have to work as hard. All in all, I have no quarrel with our military at all.

You're asking me to give my son's life possibly. I'd fight that tooth and nail too if given a choice. I'm not given that choice however, but I can assure you, I won't give my daughter without a fight too! IF she chose it, I'd stand proud behind her, but I'd fight tooth and nail if someone tried to pass legislation to make her go. I don't put more value on her life than his. Actually, he's my 1st born and as much as I love my daughter, he's my 1st born! Even at their young ages, he's so much more capable than she is though and their both raised by the same parents with the same set of rules.

I don't think it all comes from upbringing either. My SIL has one daughter who would be a great soldier and one who would be worthless in the military. My brother in law has two daughters too and I'd say the exact same thing about them. One would be incredible and one would be worthless to the military. Not worthless as individuals by any means, just worthless to the military!

 

[I <3 Eeyore]

You're so lucky. My staff consists only of smart, competent women. I want some big strong men to work for me, too. Are you willing to share?

 

[N.Bailey]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
This is the exact same attitude that men used for years to keep women from voting, from working outside the home and from enjoying equal rights in this country.

I really thought we were past that, but apparently not.

Big difference between holding a job and living in the jungle or trekking through the desert with that AK-47 (not even sure that's the gun of choice) ready to blow someone's head off!

 

[N.Bailey]

Originally posted by I <3 Eeyore
Cheer up, ladies, I have good news! I hear corsets, crinolines and fainting couches are making a comeback this year. Can knights on white horses be very far behind?

You're sarcasm is so becoming! I feel all the more intelligent for having read your response here!

 

[Evil Princess]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Where in the world did anyone say that equal pay and the right to vote prepares someone for serving in the military? What we have said is that if you value those rights, you should be willing to fight alongside men to retain them. And if you aren't willing to fight for them, then perhaps you really don't deserve to have them.

That's the EXACT point I'm making. I <3 Eeyore, listen up this is for you too, since you and AFR have the same brain tonight.

You keep throwing the argument that because women have the vote, becaues we have equal rights, that I am not entitled to them becaue I don't fight for them.

Can you refresh my memory as to what war women fought in to get the vote? Was it "The Women's Voting War?" Forgive me, I must've missed out on that one in history class.

I agree, women shouldn't just sit around and be helpless. Women did not gain the vote by fighting a war (well, one in combat anyway). They held protests and got their points across other ways. Would I do the same? YES, I would be willing to protest and argue for my rights. That protest that was held in DC a couple of months back about women's rights and abortion? You could bet I'd be there protesting if I was going to college nearby. That is NOT, IMHO, the same thing as going overseas and literally fighting in a war.

 

[N.Bailey]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
As to your second paragraph, you are twisting the question that I asked in order to give an utterly ridiculous answer. I didn't ask if everyone that hasn't served should give them up, I asked if everyone that isn't WILLING to fight for those rights should have them.

Is that more clear?

I understand what you're saying, but why should it only be woman who give these rights up if they're not serving? I don't believe this to be a women's lib issue. I realize you do, I don't however.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by N.Bailey
Big difference between holding a job and living in the jungle or trekking through the desert with that AK-47 (not even sure that's the gun of choice) ready to blow someone's head off!

Yes there is a big difference, but the idea that women can do one and not the other is utterly ridiculous. And the example stands - all of the excuses that you are using for why women shouldn't be drafted are the very same excuses used by men to say that we wouldn't know how to vote or that we couldn't handle working outside the home.

It was stupid then and it's stupid now, IMO.