Why wait times have gotten crazy

[ArwenMarie]

I can't find the comment now or I would quote it, but I agree that they should get rid of the 4th FP and beyond. It's just gumming up the works and it's annoying to go to the kiosks. Either give 4 prebooked, at least put the 4th in the app, or forget about it. But remember, that was done specifically to stop the backlash against the story that "you can only get 3 FPs a day." And it worked! As soon as they put that in, no one could say that anymore.

Ditto for the tiers. If they are going to have tiers, then let's stop the illusion that you are really getting 3 FPs in those parks. They should just allow one FP at DHS and Epcot.

 

[havoc315]

Again, your examples are off. For your first class example to apply, Disney would have to build "upgraded" ride carts for those who pay more to ride. Same ride, plushier ride vehicle. They don't do this, nor should they. But that would be about equivalent to having first class on an airplane. Same ride, better seat. That wouldn't affect another guests wait time or ride experience. I would look at people paying more for a cushier Winnie the Pooh seat like I do those on first class, "what a sucker", but, "Good for them"

The football example also isn't applicable. For it to work, the 50 yard line people would be able to get in unencumbered by the noisebleed seats, until 30 mins before kickoff. This doesn't happen nor should it.

Disney already offers premiums for purchase - dinner cruises, dessert parties, and the halloween party. No, I shouldn't be against the party. Disney owes no one extended park hours. 9-7 is a reasonable park operating time. Also, one enjoys less crowds during "party days" so its a trade off, one could argue better for the person not attending the party, an improved experience even. The point you are missing, is that these extras Disney offers does not affect the average customer's theme park experience that day. They aren't made to wait longer because of the actions of those who paid more. That's the crux of my argument and belief. Disney feels the same way. Last night, I saw a commercial for Disney showing "for only $80 per person per day" vacation package. Who is that geared towards? I believe their target market is that middle ground. That's why the POP has 4 times the amount of rooms as the Contemporary.....(estimate)

The examples are completely comparable.. you're missing the point.

First class airfare: One of the biggest perks, is that you get to board the airplane first, you get off first. You don't have to wait in line!! Just like fastpass. You also get a better overall experience, just like fastpass. Remember, waiting in line is part of the attraction, in the sense that its part of the time commitment for the attraction.
So first class passenger, gets a much more relaxing trip... boarding the airplane first, getting to enjoy a glass of wine, getting to sit back. While a coach passenger has to stand in a long line to board the plane, dealing with cramped space.
Fastpass "passenger" -- gets to get on the ride immediately, getting to enjoy whole benefit of the attraction. So Splash mountain -- they get 17 minutes of enjoyment. While the "coach" non-FP "passenger" has to spend 40 minutes of the hour in line, only getting to enjoy the last 17 minutes.

You are missing the 50 yard line point -- It is delivering a DIFFERENT experience based on price. Nothing to do with who enters first.

And just like faspass -- I've been fortunate enough to use a luxury box at Madison Square Garden, I've had premium seats to baseball stadiums -- And just like fastpass, I get to avoid the crowds, I get to use special entrances.

Now based on your logic, you should be totally against the parties where only limited numbers of people "who pay extra" are allowed to attend.
It absolutely affects my guest experience if I have to leave the park at 6 or 7 pm, while other people get to stay until midnight!

Sounds like you are pretty selective about the types of "perks" that are okay with you, and those that aren't. Just the ones that you personally dislike, are the ones you are against.

But since you don't mind "exclusive hours" like parties and EMH... So you don't object to the carving out of hours?
So how about... Off site guests are allowed to ride attractions only from 9-11am, and 2-7pm. They aren't kicked out of the park, and they are free to see the parades, eat in the restaurants.
Deluxe on site guests are allowed to ride the attractions from 8am - 11pm.
Value and mod on site guests are allowed to ride the attractions from 9am-noon, and then again from 1pm-10pm. (so 8-9, 12-1 and 10-11 are reserved only for deluxe guests).

Now, this type of "perk" fits entirely with your logic -- You don't mind carved out hours.

Or you could make it even simpler: Off-site guests only get entry into the park from 10am - 4pm.

These types of arrangements would certainly cure the line issue for deluxe guests, and they fit your objections perfectly.

 

[havoc315]

People don't necessarily "scrape" to stay offsite anymore than they "scrape" to stay onsite. We stay at offsite resorts sometimes because we like multiple bedrooms and bathrooms and a living room and a kitchen and believe me, the quality is just as high as the Disney properties, including DVC, often higher. It's not because we're broke lol.

EXACTLY. I was replying to someone who talked about families just being able to scrape by...

People make CHOICES, based on many factors including price.

There is nothing immoral or unethical if Disney chose to EXPAND the number of choices, by scaling park-perks based on tier.

Some guests may choose to stay off site to get more space..... another guest may choose to stay onsite, to get access to more FPs. It's about choices, and there is nothing wrong with giving consumers choices.

Yet, some people suggest that charging more for certain things is somehow evil. Fact is, it goes back to Walt's founding philosophy. He charged more for E-ticket attractions than other attractions. That's a very very strong version of line control. (Imagine Splash Mountain was $40 per ride, while Dumbo was $5... which would get more repeat riders?)

 

[havoc315]

I can't find the comment now or I would quote it, but I agree that they should get rid of the 4th FP and beyond. It's just gumming up the works and it's annoying to go to the kiosks. Either give 4 prebooked, at least put the 4th in the app, or forget about it. But remember, that was done specifically to stop the backlash against the story that "you can only get 3 FPs a day." And it worked! As soon as they put that in, no one could say that anymore.

Ditto for the tiers. If they are going to have tiers, then let's stop the illusion that you are really getting 3 FPs in those parks. They should just allow one FP at DHS and Epcot.

It's based on the highest possible crowds -- In the highest possible crowds, they will still be able to give 3 FPs per person... but virtually nobody will ever get a 4th.

I don't think the 4th + FPs is the problem. In crowded days, nobody will be able to get 4th and more, anyway.

 

[dlavender]

The examples are completely comparable.. you're missing the point.

First class airfare: One of the biggest perks, is that you get to board the airplane first, you get off first. You don't have to wait in line!! Just like fastpass. You also get a better overall experience, just like fastpass. Remember, waiting in line is part of the attraction, in the sense that its part of the time commitment for the attraction.
So first class passenger, gets a much more relaxing trip... boarding the airplane first, getting to enjoy a glass of wine, getting to sit back. While a coach passenger has to stand in a long line to board the plane, dealing with cramped space.
Fastpass "passenger" -- gets to get on the ride immediately, getting to enjoy whole benefit of the attraction. So Splash mountain -- they get 17 minutes of enjoyment. While the "coach" non-FP "passenger" has to spend 40 minutes of the hour in line, only getting to enjoy the last 17 minutes.

You are missing the 50 yard line point -- It is delivering a DIFFERENT experience based on price. Nothing to do with who enters first.

And just like faspass -- I've been fortunate enough to use a luxury box at Madison Square Garden, I've had premium seats to baseball stadiums -- And just like fastpass, I get to avoid the crowds, I get to use special entrances.

Now based on your logic, you should be totally against the parties where only limited numbers of people "who pay extra" are allowed to attend.
It absolutely affects my guest experience if I have to leave the park at 6 or 7 pm, while other people get to stay until midnight!

Sounds like you are pretty selective about the types of "perks" that are okay with you, and those that aren't. Just the ones that you personally dislike, are the ones you are against.

But since you don't mind "exclusive hours" like parties and EMH... So you don't object to the carving out of hours?
So how about... Off site guests are allowed to ride attractions only from 9-11am, and 2-7pm. They aren't kicked out of the park, and they are free to see the parades, eat in the restaurants.
Deluxe on site guests are allowed to ride the attractions from 8am - 11pm.
Value and mod on site guests are allowed to ride the attractions from 9am-noon, and then again from 1pm-10pm. (so 8-9, 12-1 and 10-11 are reserved only for deluxe guests).

Now, this type of "perk" fits entirely with your logic -- You don't mind carved out hours.

Or you could make it even simpler: Off-site guests only get entry into the park from 10am - 4pm.

These types of arrangements would certainly cure the line issue for deluxe guests, and they fit your objections perfectly.

But the plane takes off at the same time, arrives at the same time. Yes, they board 5 minutes before everyone else. So I'll concede, I'd be ok with a pay for play system that makes me wait an extra 5 minutes. But we are talking about apples and oranges here. If that flight used to leave at 7, but a bunch of First Classers came on last minute, now we leave at 7:40, I have a problem. That doesn't happen. So again, apples and oranges.

The box at MSG is like the dessert party for the fireworks. You sitting in the box doesn't cause me to miss any of the Knicks losing moments (sorry, had to). You sitting in a dessert party doesn't cause anyone to miss an explosion (just like the knicks implosion, had to again)

Exclusive hours are "extra hours" that weren't there before. 9-7 is reasonable. If Disney wants a 5 AM ride fest for $1000, I'm all for it, no objections. If Disney wants to have a cocktail only part from 7-8 PM, I'm all for it, no objections.

Carving out the middle of the 9-7 schedule would be against my stance.

Again, it's all about the normal operating scheduled experience. Anything outside of that, no complaints. Just give the guy in line from 9-7 the same experience as another guy in the same line at the same time. That's my stance.

 

[dlavender]

I'll add, it's because there are so many extras available outside of the parks for consumers that there is no need to adjust the inside park experience for the higher end clientele. They can purchase dessert party tickets to watch the fireworks from a nicer location while enjoying pumpkin cheesecake (no idea if this is really served, but I want some). They can rest their head at night on a down pillow while watching the castle glow from their theme park Contemporary room (one day, one day....). They can visit all the outside parties, EMH's, Keys to the Kingdom, personalized safaris....Trust me, they aren't hurting for extra deluxe options....they don't need to cut in line, on top of all of this.

 

[havoc315]

But the plane takes off at the same time, arrives at the same time. Yes, they board 5 minutes before everyone else. So I'll concede, I'd be ok with a pay for play system that makes me wait an extra 5 minutes. But we are talking about apples and oranges here. If that flight used to leave at 7, but a bunch of First Classers came on last minute, now we leave at 7:40, I have a problem. That doesn't happen. So again, apples and oranges.

The box at MSG is like the dessert party for the fireworks. You sitting in the box doesn't cause me to miss any of the Knicks losing moments (sorry, had to). You sitting in a dessert party doesn't cause anyone to miss an explosion (just like the knicks implosion, had to again)

Exclusive hours are "extra hours" that weren't there before. 9-7 is reasonable. If Disney wants a 5 AM ride fest for $1000, I'm all for it, no objections. If Disney wants to have a cocktail only part from 7-8 PM, I'm all for it, no objections.

Carving out the middle of the 9-7 schedule would be against my stance.

1 -- the airline example: What does departure/arrival time have to do with anything? Are you riding the Mine Coaster as means of transportation?! In both example, it's a matter of spending more, to get a more pleasant experience. But as you just said, you have no problem with a pay for play system that makes you wait an extra 5 minutes.
Have you heard the joke about the guy that turns to the woman at a bar, "will you sleep with me for $10 million?" She says yes... He then says, "how about $5?" She slaps him and says, "do I look like a prostitute?" He answers her, "we already established that you are a prostitute, now we are just haggling over price."
So you have no problem with a pay-for-play that affects waits... you just want to haggle over how much extra wait. And I suspect, it would be dependent on price.
Right now, as we speak, someone can pay about $300 per hour for a VIP tour, and get to skip the lines, and it adds a couple minutes to the line for everyone else. You have no problem with that.
Now let's say... we had a system where anybody who pays an extra $1, gets on the ride instantly, but anybody who doesn't pay it, waits 5 minutes. You have no problem, right?
What if the extra charge was $2, get on ride instantly, versus waiting 7 minutes? What if it was pay an extra $1, get on instantly, but if you refuse to pay the $1, then wait 30 minutes? Would you object, or would you simply cough up the $1?

2-- the MSG box. FP doesn't stop a standby rider from enjoying Splash Mountain. Just like the MSG box vs MSG nosebleed seat -- They both get to see the same game. And FP versus SB, they get to ride the same ride. The only difference is which door they take. The MSG box holder, gets to enter through various VIP doors, skipping crowds. The regular guest has to go through the crowds. Exactly like FP vs standby. They get to see the same game, but they take different routes to get into the game.

3-- Exclusive hours -- So you have no objection, as long as you get your current hours. Again, doesn't sound like an argument based on principle.. just an argument based on your personal usage.
So based on your principled stance -- If they changed the hours for EVERYONE.... to 10am-4pm... and did that for 6 months. But then, they "expanded" the hours for onsite guests to 8am-11pm, you wouldn't have an issue. Since they are just adding "extra" hours. But if they make the change all at once, they it is against your stance.

This is getting stale. Obviously, you're against changes that would impact you negatively. That's perfectly natural. I'm just as selfish to say that I favor changes that would positively impact me. (Disney should have exclusive hours just for left-handed Mets fan lawyers!) But let's not pretend that it is any principled stance, or that such changes would be novel. Again, it's already the way the whole rest of the world works. Including how Disney already works. It's just haggling about how much of it.

 

[NYHeel]

EXACTLY. I was replying to someone who talked about families just being able to scrape by...

People make CHOICES, based on many factors including price.

There is nothing immoral or unethical if Disney chose to EXPAND the number of choices, by scaling park-perks based on tier.

Some guests may choose to stay off site to get more space..... another guest may choose to stay onsite, to get access to more FPs. It's about choices, and there is nothing wrong with giving consumers choices.

Yet, some people suggest that charging more for certain things is somehow evil. Fact is, it goes back to Walt's founding philosophy. He charged more for E-ticket attractions than other attractions. That's a very very strong version of line control. (Imagine Splash Mountain was $40 per ride, while Dumbo was $5... which would get more repeat riders?)

I think this makes sense. I choose to stay off site because I believe it's much much better experience for my family to stay at a 3-4 bedroom apartment/townhouse within 10-15 minutes of WDW for about $100 a night. It's not purely cost but cost does play a big role. It's just that we want space and we need a kitchen. Without a kitchen our trip would be extremely unenjoyable or even just not doable, especially for trips longer than a few days. Price of course is also a big component but certainly not the only one.

With that said, it wouldn't bother me if Disney added an extra fast pass or come up with some other relatively minor perks for on site guests. After all, they do want people to stay on site. I assume they make a ton of money on their hotels, considering the price to quality ratio. Plus if the perks were valuable enough the smart off site people could figure out ways to game the system. However, Disney shouldn't go to a place where the overall in park experience becomes significantly different if you're staying off site. A really large percentage of their guests do not stay on site and Disney doesn't want them feeling like their experience is much worse than the on site guests because that a large chunk of their customers.

As to what is a minor perk vs a significant difference, I don't know. I do know that Universal manages to give their hotel guests a really big perk with unlimited express pass for almost all of their rides. So they're able to get away with that.

 

[dlavender]

1 -- the airline example: What does departure/arrival time have to do with anything? Are you riding the Mine Coaster as means of transportation?! In both example, it's a matter of spending more, to get a more pleasant experience. But as you just said, you have no problem with a pay for play system that makes you wait an extra 5 minutes.
Have you heard the joke about the guy that turns to the woman at a bar, "will you sleep with me for $10 million?" She says yes... He then says, "how about $5?" She slaps him and says, "do I look like a prostitute?" He answers her, "we already established that you are a prostitute, now we are just haggling over price."
So you have no problem with a pay-for-play that affects waits... you just want to haggle over how much extra wait. And I suspect, it would be dependent on price.
Right now, as we speak, someone can pay about $300 per hour for a VIP tour, and get to skip the lines, and it adds a couple minutes to the line for everyone else. You have no problem with that.
Now let's say... we had a system where anybody who pays an extra $1, gets on the ride instantly, but anybody who doesn't pay it, waits 5 minutes. You have no problem, right?
What if the extra charge was $2, get on ride instantly, versus waiting 7 minutes? What if it was pay an extra $1, get on instantly, but if you refuse to pay the $1, then wait 30 minutes? Would you object, or would you simply cough up the $1?

2-- the MSG box. FP doesn't stop a standby rider from enjoying Splash Mountain. Just like the MSG box vs MSG nosebleed seat -- They both get to see the same game. And FP versus SB, they get to ride the same ride. The only difference is which door they take. The MSG box holder, gets to enter through various VIP doors, skipping crowds. The regular guest has to go through the crowds. Exactly like FP vs standby. They get to see the same game, but they take different routes to get into the game.

3-- Exclusive hours -- So you have no objection, as long as you get your current hours. Again, doesn't sound like an argument based on principle.. just an argument based on your personal usage.
So based on your principled stance -- If they changed the hours for EVERYONE.... to 10am-4pm... and did that for 6 months. But then, they "expanded" the hours for onsite guests to 8am-11pm, you wouldn't have an issue. Since they are just adding "extra" hours. But if they make the change all at once, they it is against your stance.

This is getting stale. Obviously, you're against changes that would impact you negatively. That's perfectly natural. I'm just as selfish to say that I favor changes that would positively impact me. (Disney should have exclusive hours just for left-handed Mets fan lawyers!) But let's not pretend that it is any principled stance, or that such changes would be novel. Again, it's already the way the whole rest of the world works. Including how Disney already works. It's just haggling about how much of it.

The departure time has everything to do with it, since that is what we are talking about. The departure time of the ride used to be in 20 minutes, now it will be 40 minutes due to others actions. I'm against that.

And no, the start time for the Knicks is the same for those sitting in the box and for those in the nosebleeds. (again, since we are talking about wait times - either for a game or for a ride) In your examples, the "rides" (game, plane) all start at the same time, which is why I am saying apples to oranges...

Let's not pretend that the waits would only be affected 5 minutes. They would be affected way more than that.

I don't think there are many VIP tours happening in a day that cause any noticeable change in SB waits. Any while we are talking about this, it seems that your option already exists....take it!

When you say change the hours from 10-4, that's a far cry from a normal operating schedule of 9-7, so no, not the same thing.

The only principled stance I am taking is that the average Joe should not have to endure double the wait so that the wealthy Wynona (perhaps Judd?) can pay to ride first.

 

[ArwenMarie]

EXACTLY. I was replying to someone who talked about families just being able to scrape by...

People make CHOICES, based on many factors including price.

There is nothing immoral or unethical if Disney chose to EXPAND the number of choices, by scaling park-perks based on tier.

Some guests may choose to stay off site to get more space..... another guest may choose to stay onsite, to get access to more FPs. It's about choices, and there is nothing wrong with giving consumers choices.

Yet, some people suggest that charging more for certain things is somehow evil. Fact is, it goes back to Walt's founding philosophy. He charged more for E-ticket attractions than other attractions. That's a very very strong version of line control. (Imagine Splash Mountain was $40 per ride, while Dumbo was $5... which would get more repeat riders?)

I think there are arguments on both sides that are logical.

The bigger point though is that WDW doesn't have FP capacity to sell or give as incentives. If they did, I am fully confident they would be selling them already.

 

[alopez926]

It's based on the highest possible crowds -- In the highest possible crowds, they will still be able to give 3 FPs per person... but virtually nobody will ever get a 4th.

I don't think the 4th + FPs is the problem. In crowded days, nobody will be able to get 4th and more, anyway.

I'm not sure that's exactly true. I've read in other posts that people who go Christmas week have had greater success getting addtional FP+ or switching the ones they had (and headliners to boot) than I have been able to do for my traditionally slower November trip.

The thing is, on higher crowd days, you expect longer standby lines and no or significantly less 4th FP+ options and only for 3rd tier rides very late in the day. But days that aren't necessariy crowded from a numbers persepctive (or at least don't appear to be according to attendance estimates--I read this in The Touring Plan blog people are quoting) are seeing standby waits approximating those experienced during high crowd times. There is 4th, 5th and 6th+ FP+ availability on those lower crowd days and people appear to be using them, which may be contributing to longer standby waits. I would think that eliminating the availability to get more than 3 FP+ would help ease standby wait times.

 

[havoc315]

The departure time has everything to do with it, since that is what we are talking about. The departure time of the ride used to be in 20 minutes, now it will be 40 minutes due to others actions. I'm against that.

And no, the start time for the Knicks is the same for those sitting in the box and for those in the nosebleeds. (again, since we are talking about wait times - either for a game or for a ride) In your examples, the "rides" (game, plane) all start at the same time, which is why I am saying apples to oranges...

Let's not pretend that the waits would only be affected 5 minutes. They would be affected way more than that.

I don't think there are many VIP tours happening in a day that cause any noticeable change in SB waits. Any while we are talking about this, it seems that your option already exists....take it!

When you say change the hours from 10-4, that's a far cry from a normal operating schedule of 9-7, so no, not the same thing.

The only principled stance I am taking is that the average Joe should not have to endure double the wait so that the wealthy Wynona (perhaps Judd?) can pay to ride first.

It's a matter of paying for different experiences.

You are against anything that doubles lines? So you should be against the entire FP system. It has caused doubling and tripling of lines overall.

As it stands now, Wynona Judd books a VIP tour and gets a wait a fraction of your wait.

Your concern is the "average Joe"-- so it sounds like you just want 99% of people to be in the same boat. You have no problem with 1% getting to buy a special privilege... Because it will have a minimal direct impact on the other 99%.

So you're just haggling...

To me, Disney can segregate their benefits however they want in terms of price. If they want to charge $500 per fast pass, they can go ahead. I wouldn't pay it, I'd just get in line. If the price was $10, I might just get it.
Anyway, they can price it however they want. And then every average Joe can choose which benefits to purchase, and which not too. (Hmmm... Park hopper ticket, party ticket, water park inclusive ticket, 3 day or 4 day ticket, the extra FP ticket...)

Just like Universal. And just like everything in life.

 

[tlmadden73]

I can't find the comment now or I would quote it, but I agree that they should get rid of the 4th FP and beyond. It's just gumming up the works and it's annoying to go to the kiosks. Either give 4 prebooked, at least put the 4th in the app, or forget about it. But remember, that was done specifically to stop the backlash against the story that "you can only get 3 FPs a day." And it worked! As soon as they put that in, no one could say that anymore.

Ditto for the tiers. If they are going to have tiers, then let's stop the illusion that you are really getting 3 FPs in those parks. They should just allow one FP at DHS and Epcot.

Interesting .. Agree that that the 4th FP (and beyond) .. gum up the works. It is also unfair that some people can skip 5+ lines in a day while others simply cannot .. because they chose to get a FP for Wishes or something else in the late afternoon/evening. That is their choice, but it feels unfair.

They should also stop the "illusion" that you are getting something by getting a FP to a show. (a theatre show .. not the night shows or parades)
They are a waste to the ignorant. Where those people could be saving TIME by skipping a line for a ride (any ride) . .they usually save no time and usually don't get any better seats. I am sure in peak crowd times there is a chance you could "miss" a show by it being at capacity, but that is remedied by just arriving a bit early.

At DHS .. simply due to going with toddlers .. we had to "waste" fast passes on two shows .. that weren't needed (the theatres weren't even half full) and because of the tiering system I was not "allowed" to get a Fast Pass for the Great Movie Ride (which is the ONLY other ride there that toddlers can go on).

 

[havoc315]

I think there are arguments on both sides that are logical.

The bigger point though is that WDW doesn't have FP capacity to sell or give as incentives. If they did, I am fully confident they would be selling them already.

Sure they do..... But you'd have to rob Peter to pay Paul.
For example:

Off site guests -- limited to a maximum of 2 same-day fast passes.

On site value/mod- 3 FPs, booked up to 30 days in advance.

Deluxe guests-- 4 FPs, booked up to 60 days in advance.

Premium deluxe guests/VIPs, etc-- 5 FPs, up to 60 days in advance.

 

[NYHeel]

I'm no expert but having been in MK yesterday it seems that the issue is that they're not adjusting the FP capacity levels by crowd level. Meaning assuming space mountain gives out 1000 fast passes per hour (just making up a round number) during really peak times, it seems like Disney is still giving out about that same 1000 fast passes per hour in October. Therefore by having fast pass at full capacity the standby wait time is still pretty long even if there aren't as many people in standby. So yeah, the standby wait is shorter than peak times but they're still formidable from the peak fast pass capacity.

The Unofficial Guide book said that the fast pass capacity is lower during less than peek times. I'm wondering if the recent issue is that they stopped doing that and started maintaining the same FP capacity regardless of time.

 

[MrInfinity]

It's a matter of paying for different experiences.

You are against anything that doubles lines? So you should be against the entire FP system. It has caused doubling and tripling of lines overall.

As it stands now, Wynona Judd books a VIP tour and gets a wait a fraction of your wait.

Your concern is the "average Joe"-- so it sounds like you just want 99% of people to be in the same boat. You have no problem with 1% getting to buy a special privilege... Because it will have a minimal direct impact on the other 99%.

So you're just haggling...

To me, Disney can segregate their benefits however they want in terms of price. If they want to charge $500 per fast pass, they can go ahead. I wouldn't pay it, I'd just get in line. If the price was $10, I might just get it.
Anyway, they can price it however they want. And then every average Joe can choose which benefits to purchase, and which not too. (Hmmm... Park hopper ticket, party ticket, water park inclusive ticket, 3 day or 4 day ticket, the extra FP ticket...)

Just like Universal. And just like everything in life.

I agree with dlavender, that I am turned off by most theme parks (Universal, Cedar Point, Six Flags) charging around $80 to go, and then around $80 more to skip the lines. Most people do not buy this, just because the target audience at these parks (teens) chooses not to afford it. Thus they're not a big deal. But if they made this $20, then I think you'd see a situation where it became compelling to buy it... everyone would buy it, and the benefit would be nullified except for the few who don't pony up the $20 would be really disadvantaged then. So as long as it stays a small benefit, at a high price, it is not something most people will go for, and we all feel like we're pretty equal, or at least not significantly disadvantaged by it. As long as you don't feel disadvantaged, it's easy to accept that some people will always be able to buy their way thru a day of no lines.

Off site guests -- limited to a maximum of 2 same-day fast passes.
On site value/mod- 3 FPs, booked up to 30 days in advance.
Deluxe guests-- 4 FPs, booked up to 60 days in advance.
Premium deluxe guests/VIPs, etc-- 5 FPs, up to 60 days in advance.

This would be appropriate if they were trying to upsell guests from Value to Deluxe. I think they're using the FP+ perk more to get folks to stay onsite. So the carrot here is to get folks onsite in the Values, over say, the HoJo down the block. For the same $120/night, get advance booking and good rides or 30-day booking and leftovers? That is the tradeoff. The HoJo can compete on price, but they can't offer Disney World rides. Being in a position where you can only compete on price is where Disney wants those competitors.

 

[dlavender]

It's a matter of paying for different experiences.

You are against anything that doubles lines? So you should be against the entire FP system. It has caused doubling and tripling of lines overall.

As it stands now, Wynona Judd books a VIP tour and gets a wait a fraction of your wait.

Your concern is the "average Joe"-- so it sounds like you just want 99% of people to be in the same boat. You have no problem with 1% getting to buy a special privilege... Because it will have a minimal direct impact on the other 99%.

So you're just haggling...

To me, Disney can segregate their benefits however they want in terms of price. If they want to charge $500 per fast pass, they can go ahead. I wouldn't pay it, I'd just get in line. If the price was $10, I might just get it.
Anyway, they can price it however they want. And then every average Joe can choose which benefits to purchase, and which not too. (Hmmm... Park hopper ticket, party ticket, water park inclusive ticket, 3 day or 4 day ticket, the extra FP ticket...)

Just like Universal. And just like everything in life.

Yes, I want 99% of the people in the same boat. Can't control the 1%. I do not want a 75-25 system.

I am against the FP system. I stated earlier that I wish we could go back to the time pre FP. But I also concede that you can still pretty much do what you set out to do, so I wouldn't waste my time trying to supplant it, per se.

Of course they can do whatever they want. Who can argue that? I can't stop em.

If the price was $10, you are right, everyone would do it. This is why they don't offer it, and the VIP tour I'm sure is astronomical (for the 1%). Isn't the longer, more profitable game, to just keep raising ticket prices, then keep the experience equal vs working to "add on" line skipping services?

 

[havoc315]

I agree with dlavender, that I am turned off by most theme parks (Universal, Cedar Point, Six Flags) charging around $80 to go, and then around $80 more to skip the lines. Most people do not buy this, just because the target audience at these parks (teens) chooses not to afford it. Thus they're not a big deal. But if they made this $20, then I think you'd see a situation where it became compelling to buy it... everyone would buy it, and the benefit would be nullified except for the few who don't pony up the $20 would be really disadvantaged then. So as long as it stays a small benefit, at a high price, it is not something most people will go for, and we all feel like we're pretty equal, or at least not significantly disadvantaged by it. As long as you don't feel disadvantaged, it's easy to accept that some people will always be able to buy their way thru a day of no lines.

Obviously, it would have to be priced at a point where it makes sense. Make it too cheap, and everyone buys it, completely nullifying the effect. As you said, Universal and others have found a way to make it work.

Disney has generally been the most "communist" compared to other theme parks, at least in modern years. Among major theme parks, they were the only ones that didn't charge extra for "FP privileges."
But everyone else has been doing it. For example, SeaWorld charges $19 for front of the line access, yet obviously not everyone buys it. So it's impossible to guess what the right price point would be for Disney. (and why I think they would just tie it into onsite, instead of charging separately). If I had to guess, if they charged $40 per day extra for FPs, I think a fair amount of people would buy it, but most would just opt for standby.

 

[dlavender]

Obviously, it would have to be priced at a point where it makes sense. Make it too cheap, and everyone buys it, completely nullifying the effect. As you said, Universal and others have found a way to make it work.

Disney has generally been the most "communist" compared to other theme parks, at least in modern years. Among major theme parks, they were the only ones that didn't charge extra for "FP privileges."
But everyone else has been doing it. For example, SeaWorld charges $19 for front of the line access, yet obviously not everyone buys it. So it's impossible to guess what the right price point would be for Disney. (and why I think they would just tie it into onsite, instead of charging separately). If I had to guess, if they charged $40 per day extra for FPs, I think a fair amount of people would buy it, but most would just opt for standby.

I may be in the minority on this one, but I just dislike menu add ons...at restaurants, theme parks, anywhere. "For an extra $5, do you want preferred parking?" (dislike) "For an extra $40, do you want to add some FP's?"(dislike) For an extra $.50, would you like to make that large?" (dislike) "Would you like to add bacon on that?" (dislike)....just my feelings, and I'm sure Disney loses no sleep over my feelings (neither does any company). Disney takes that $19, that SW charges, and just puts it in the ticket price. Why not make everyone pay that $19, and offer a World Class experience? - better business move. Then, instead of trying to up charge the regular day theme park experience that you already purchased, they offer extras like dessert parties, upscale resorts, extra tours, specialty events (outside normal operating hours).

 

[havoc315]

Yes, I want 99% of the people in the same boat. Can't control the 1%. I do not want a 75-25 system.

I am against the FP system. I stated earlier that I wish we could go back to the time pre FP. But I also concede that you can still pretty much do what you set out to do, so I wouldn't waste my time trying to supplant it, per se.

Of course they can do whatever they want. Who can argue that? I can't stop em.

If the price was $10, you are right, everyone would do it. This is why they don't offer it, and the VIP tour I'm sure is astronomical (for the 1%). Isn't the longer, more profitable game, to just keep raising ticket prices, then keep the experience equal vs working to "add on" line skipping services?

Honestly, no. From a purely economics perspective, you make the most money by fragmenting the charges as much as possible. If you charge everybody $100 -- Then there are people who are willing to pay more, but you aren't getting their extra money. And there are people who would be willing to pay less, and you aren't getting their money.

Airlines have become masters at this fragmentation -- charge per bag. Charge more for an aisle seat. Charge for the privilege of picking your seats. All that stuff used to be included, but not separate charges.

Now, from a customer experience:

Let's say I can only afford $100 tickets. If they decide to charge EVERYBODY $200, and give EVERYBODY the same benefit, then I'm left out.
On the other hand, let's say they still offer a $100 "value ticket"... and then offer other types of tickets, for different prices. Then I'm not left out.

Tell me, based on your personal situation, which would be better for you... If they raised ticket prices to $500 per day for everyone, or if they kept the base price at $100, but charged another $400 for FP privileges?

The way I see it, "add on" pricing increased profitability for the seller, and it also increases access for the customers, as they can get a "discount" by not getting the full package.

How about this.... What if they DROPPED the price of non-FP tickets to $25, but increased the price of tickets with FP, to $125... Would you object to that?