Why wait times have gotten crazy

[Hudson Hornet]

Eh. The FP+ system is probably great for many people.

And lots of things are great for everyone -- anything that increases customer satisfaction is generally good for Disney and for us.

But it feels like the FP+ system increased satisfaction for some people, by taking it away from others.

Absolutely. For the rides that I have booked a FP, I absolutely love the FP+ System. However, when I am in the standby line, I find myself sneering at people in the FP line. It both increases my satisfaction AND takes it away on every trip. It makes me miss the old days with the paper Fast Pass dispensing machines at the attractions. In fact, sometime I miss the old days before fast passes. It really allowed the line to move faster. During the Halloween party a couple of weeks ago, my family got into the line at Peter Pan all the way out of the entrance gate. It only took about 25 minutes because they were not constantly stopping the line to let fast passers get on. And we went through the whole queue! It wasn't a shortened line. So, I have mixed emotions about FP.

 

[wisblue]

Finally, I have seen rides running at less than capacity at different times of the day, and it looks suspiciously like they knew how many customers were coming based on Appointments for rides and staffed accordingly. It looks like to me Disney is comfortable with 10 min fastpass return wait times and 40 minute standby times regardless of crowds. So during a non busy day, they cut back on ride capacity, number of workers, and let the lines stay longer. I'm afraid MM+ made this much easier for them. As someone else said, Disney could very well be cutting back on FP+ availability during slower times and forcing people into different rides while keeping their staff down all over the parks.

This thread has a lot of different observations, opinions, and theories, and even some different interpretations of the same facts. But, this one comment really piques my curiosity.

As someone who likes to study attraction capacities, you must agree that if a park has (1) the same number of people in attendance, (2) the same rides in operation, (3) the same park hours, and (4) rides operating at the same level of capacity, the total number of attractions experienced by all guests, and the average number of attractions per guest, will be the same, regardless of what type of FP system is in place or how long standby lines are.

A number of Dis posters who have visited WDW frequently, and who say they love going to Walt Disney World, (including some on this thread) have said that they are doing fewer attractions since FP+ was implemented. Some have said that they can’t believe that anyone is doing more than they used to do. But, unless at least one of those 4 factors has changed, it isn’t possible for everyone to be doing less than they did before. My opinion has been that a small percentage of people who did many more attractions than the average guest are now doing less, while a greater percentage of guests are now doing slightly more. I wouldn’t expect people who think their experiences are adversely affected to be consoled by the fact that others are benefitting.

I doubt if this could be proven one way or another, but I would be interested in specific examples of things you have seen that have made you conclude that Disney is operating rides at less than capacity more than they used to at similar times of the year. I don’t see much of this myself, except for very early in the morning, because we usually visit at busy times. But, it seems that I have often read that some of the downsides to visiting at less busy times are shorter park hours, more rides closed for refurbishment, and more rides operating at less than full capacity for more of the day.

ETA: There is some interesting discussion about wait times in this item in the easywdw forums:

http://www.easywdw.com/forums/showt...ents-on-recent-increase-in-wait-times-at-park

I especially note Josh's e-mail to Len Testa of Touring Plans as they try to identify what caused some of the jump in wait times this October. This message includes some interesting comments about whether people are really doing fewer attractions with FP+, or if most of the impact is on rerides. He also questions how many real "power users" there were in the first place.

Josh really doubts that Disney is intentionally reducing ride capacity.

 

[havoc315]

As far as wait times, which is what I think this thread was/is about.....I don't believe in a system that would let people pay more at the expense of others i.e. a ride pass that slows the SB wait to allow for no wait for the pass holder. But, if Disney would like to build a special seating area and restroom for an up charge, go for it.

They already do EXACTLY that with the VIP access. So you don't believe in the current system... and you don't want that system expanded at all.

Nothing wrong with that position. Just saying let's not pretend that such a system is novel, unethical, or anything else. That system already exists...
For about $3000 -- You can skip the standby line at every right, and go into the FP line for every ride with FP. And thereby, making the standby line that much longer. Now, at that price, not too many people are taking advantage of it, so it has a miniscule effect on the SB lines. What you're against, is dropping that price, to let more people get it.

 

[TSR6]

3) The posted waits are artificially inflated to make the park look more crowded. We have tens of thousands of posted and actual wait times, dating back years, and this is what we’re using for the comparison. That should be done in a few days.

I think it’s safe to say at this point, that the cause of the increased wait times is a change Disney made to its park operations. We just need to finish up the math to make the case.

I honestly believe this.

We had FP+, but did a couple attractions without FP+ use...

Splash Mountain - Claimed 30min wait, was actually closer to 10-15.
The wait for Anna & Elsa - Showed 30min, was actually maybe 10 at best.
Haunted Mansion during the MNSSHP - cant remember the claimed wait time... but it didnt take that long to get in there either.

Why are they doing this? Not sure... does it help promote the "Need" for FP+? - does it get people to still walk the shops instead off just ride hopping all day?

 

[dlavender]

They already do EXACTLY that with the VIP access. So you don't believe in the current system... and you don't want that system expanded at all.

Nothing wrong with that position. Just saying let's not pretend that such a system is novel, unethical, or anything else. That system already exists...
For about $3000 -- You can skip the standby line at every right, and go into the FP line for every ride with FP. And thereby, making the standby line that much longer. Now, at that price, not too many people are taking advantage of it, so it has a miniscule effect on the SB lines. What you're against, is dropping that price, to let more people get it.

Exactly. Right now, no one feels any setback from the VIP tours. If it were expanded, for say $250, it would be felt. I am against "feeling" this "setback". (I love quotation marks)

 

[LindsayGorg]

Hehe love your wait times for the good old days. Not going to question what you saw, other than to note your view of past and current waits are not in line with what I experienced, nor what is actually happening:

Space: 30 (not 80)
Splash: 30 (not 80)
HM: 35 (not 50)
PP: 70 (not 90)
Buzz: 25 (not 60)

Those are the waits right now, 10:15 am in Florida. So you are way over-stating the actual waits. I do agree on that list of things being about what a typical family would set out to accomplish (plus SDMT and a character greet). I think your times are a little off and a family using FP+ will do those in way less than the 275 that you state.

Wow you're getting lucky with your waits for space, splash, and HM! I was just there about a month ago and by 10am all those wait times were 60 minutes!

 

[DebbieB]

A friend of mine is in Epcot and she posted a picture on Facebook from the bridge by United Kingdom, it was very crowded. Test Track 130 minutes standby. Is it a school vacation time in FL?

 

[havoc315]

Exactly. Right now, no one feels any setback from the VIP tours. If it were expanded, for say $250, it would be felt. I am against "feeling" this "setback". (I love quotation marks)

So it's no moral stance against it. You just don't want any change that might affect you negatively.
Though, I would suggest -- if they make such changes, just pay more and get the positive affect!

Of course, we all have different budgets, and I don't mean to minimize that. But within budgets -- You have have 2 families with the same financial means, but they make different choices of how to spend their money.
For the exact same amount of money.... One family might want to experience 10 days at Disney World, off property, brown bagging their lunches... Another family might want to experience 7 days at Disney World, staying in a value/mod, eating QS meals, while for the same money, another family might want to experience 4 days at a deluxe, eating some signature meals... AND perhaps, within that same budget, there is a family that would want to experience 3 days at Disney World, without any significant lines.

What's wrong with people having choices of how to spend their money? How long do you currently stay at Disney World? If you normally do a 7 day trip, with lots of long standby lines and 3 FPs per day.... What would you say, if it was possible to, for the exact same price, do a 5-day trip, with unlimited FPs? Would it really be such a horrible thing?

 

[Jennytoon]

So it's no moral stance against it. You just don't want any change that might affect you negatively.
Though, I would suggest -- if they make such changes, just pay more and get the positive affect!

Of course, we all have different budgets, and I don't mean to minimize that. But within budgets -- You have have 2 families with the same financial means, but they make different choices of how to spend their money.
For the exact same amount of money.... One family might want to experience 10 days at Disney World, off property, brown bagging their lunches... Another family might want to experience 7 days at Disney World, staying in a value/mod, eating QS meals, while for the same money, another family might want to experience 4 days at a deluxe, eating some signature meals... AND perhaps, within that same budget, there is a family that would want to experience 3 days at Disney World, without any significant lines.

What's wrong with people having choices of how to spend their money? How long do you currently stay at Disney World? If you normally do a 7 day trip, with lots of long standby lines and 3 FPs per day.... What would you say, if it was possible to, for the exact same price, do a 5-day trip, with unlimited FPs? Would it really be such a horrible thing?

To me, yes. Because for the families you cite, it is a choice. But I don't want to be the family that scraped and saved for 5 years to take my kids to Disney on a four-day trip, staying off-site because it was what we could afford, and watching everyone stream past in the FP line. I don't want to have to explain to my kids that the reason we're waiting and they aren't is because we don't have enough money to pay for the extra access. I know that's often the way the world works, and I know that my kids would have to come to terms with it, but it is *NOT* what I want them to take away from a vacation experience.

And yes, I say this as someone who *can* actually afford to pay the difference. I just don't think it should be that way -- like dlavender, it would leave a sour taste in my mouth to use it.

ETA: And I should say, I think dlavender has put his finger on it being about the percentages and the impact. Tiny # of cabanas at the waterpark / beach. Huge # of people at the waterpark / beach. Tiny # of people in first class. Huge # of people on the plane. That's easy to handle -- there will always be the elite who can afford the price of something available to a limited few. And that's the class I think the VIP tours fall into -- there are a limited # of guides, so there is a limited supply. FP line though -- when it's enough people that it's easy to see the family your kid goes to school with there when you can't be ... that's over my line.

 

[flicx]

The option is there, though. People either make the choice to tour efficiently and use the singles lines- or they wait in the standby line. So, you actually CAN tour pretty efficiently- it just means making a choice that some are unwilling- for whatever reason- to make.



We will be doing RD two mornings at three of the parks this visit (DHS currently just isn't worth it IMHO). So contrary to some of the comments that RD isn't as important, we feel it is more important than ever. With singles lines and multiple RDs- we don't anticipate standing in many lines at all for any meaningful period of time.

We will leave the standby lines for those that want to sleep in and/or those that don't want to use the singles lines. There is plenty of time throughout the rest of the day to enjoy family- for us singles lines are no big deal, and doesn't change the attraction experience enough to warrant standing in long lines. Whether the lines are long or not comes down to personal choices, and whether a person is willing to make those choices- or chooses instead to sleep in and/or not use the singles lines. Yes, some families with small children don't have the option of using singles lines- but they do have the option of RD- so can decrease waits by a significant amount without the singles lines. Everyone is different, and will tour based on their personal preferences- but wait times CAN be minimized and allow one to maximize their uses of FP+.

Actually you better check who you quoted. I never said rope drop wasn't more important under plus!

 

[srauseo]

I just don't have these recollections of the good 'ole days. Everyone seems to insist wait times were always short for PotC but I remember waiting for interminable amounts of time in those caverns - watching the skeletons play chess and thinking I'd be down there with them soon.

 

[havoc315]

To me, yes. Because for the families you cite, it is a choice. But I don't want to be the family that scraped and saved for 5 years to take my kids to Disney on a four-day trip, staying off-site because it was what we could afford, and watching everyone stream past in the FP line. I don't want to have to explain to my kids that the reason we're waiting and they aren't is because we don't have enough money to pay for the extra access. I know that's often the way the world works, and I know that my kids would have to come to terms with it, but it is *NOT* what I want them to take away from a vacation experience.

And yes, I say this as someone who *can* actually afford to pay the difference. I just don't think it should be that way -- like dlavender, it would leave a sour taste in my mouth to use it.

ETA: And I should say, I think dlavender has put his finger on it being about the percentages and the impact. Tiny # of cabanas at the waterpark / beach. Huge # of people at the waterpark / beach. Tiny # of people in first class. Huge # of people on the plane. That's easy to handle -- there will always be the elite who can afford the price of something available to a limited few. And that's the class I think the VIP tours fall into -- there are a limited # of guides, so there is a limited supply. FP line though -- when it's enough people that it's easy to see the family your kid goes to school with there when you can't be ... that's over my line.

I don't mean to be cold. But that already happens...
While you scrape to save to stay off-site... A family even less fortunate will stare jealously, "aren't you lucky that you get to go to Disney at all.. we will never have enough for a vacation like that..."
Meanwhile, the family who scraped to stay off site, will watch jealously as some people stream in and out of the more expensive restaurants..... Will watch as other people return to their rooms in the deluxe hotels, etc..

I think every parent has been asked at some point or another, "Why don't we get to do that? My friend did X, why can't we do X? etc, etc"

It's the way of the whole universe. You're asking Disney to carve out an exception that applies to your exact financial circumstance. Shouldn't they cut their prices to free, so that poor families don't need to say to their kids, "sorry that your friends can afford Disney World and we can't" Doesn't it leave a sour taste in your mouth to go to Disney World at all then, to be taking a vacation that lots of people can't afford at all?

It's ultimately a choice for EVERY family. Even if you are on the tightest of budgets, you are making the choice of whether to go on vacation, whether to go to Disney or someplace else... whether to save for another year, and make it a luxurious Disney vacation, or go now, and make it a barebones Disney vacation. It's always a choice.

And you're also suggesting, you have no problem with special purchased privileges, depending on how many people can get it?

So you have no problem if they charge $2,000 for extra fastpasses, but you would object if they charged $20?

 

[3DisneyFanz]

I just don't have these recollections of the good 'ole days. Everyone seems to insist wait times were always short for PotC but I remember waiting for interminable amounts of time in those caverns - watching the skeletons play chess and thinking I'd be down there with them soon.

At least you made it that far before you felt like you were going crazy. I honestly can't recall a time when the lines didn't at least start inside the building until our 2013 trip.

 

[dlavender]

So it's no moral stance against it. You just don't want any change that might affect you negatively.
Though, I would suggest -- if they make such changes, just pay more and get the positive affect!

Of course, we all have different budgets, and I don't mean to minimize that. But within budgets -- You have have 2 families with the same financial means, but they make different choices of how to spend their money.
For the exact same amount of money.... One family might want to experience 10 days at Disney World, off property, brown bagging their lunches... Another family might want to experience 7 days at Disney World, staying in a value/mod, eating QS meals, while for the same money, another family might want to experience 4 days at a deluxe, eating some signature meals... AND perhaps, within that same budget, there is a family that would want to experience 3 days at Disney World, without any significant lines.

What's wrong with people having choices of how to spend their money? How long do you currently stay at Disney World? If you normally do a 7 day trip, with lots of long standby lines and 3 FPs per day.... What would you say, if it was possible to, for the exact same price, do a 5-day trip, with unlimited FPs? Would it really be such a horrible thing?

No moral stance, per se.

The problem with your "model" is that the actions of the family with the "ultra" pass only staying three days will have an effect on the family spending 10 days on the "brown bag" pass, in the form of longer waits. What that family could have accomplished in 10 days, may now take 12, due to the increase in wait times. I am not for any system that adversely affects the experience of another customer.

 

[flicx]

There is one point that is consistently being overlooked. Of the three fast passes you now get under plus only 1 or 2 of them existed under legacy. Most tier2 and 3 attractions didn't need fast pass under legacy. So in essence you are not even getting 3 true legacy fast passes. Now when you combine this fact with the inflated standby lines, you now get less attractions for your buck!

 

[havoc315]

No moral stance, per se.

The problem with your "model" is that the actions of the family with the "ultra" pass only staying three days will have an effect on the family spending 10 days on the "brown bag" pass, in the form of longer waits. What that family could have accomplished in 10 days, may now take 12, due to the increase in wait times. I am not for any system that adversely affects the experience of another customer.

So eliminate FPs all together? Because FPs adversely affect some customers.... Heck, if you don't stay onsite, you probably can't even get a Mine Coaster FP. And they should certainly eliminate the parties under your theory, as the parties only benefit those who pay extra, while those who refuse to pay extra get shortened park hours and kicked out of the park early. While those at the park, get a VIP experience of enjoying the park with "only" 20,000 guests.

There are already lots and lots of ways that Disney policies adversely affect one customer, in favor of another customer. We've been through this again and again, so I'll wrap up my part in the conversation.

I'm in favor of options. That includes behavior options (being able to choose your strategies, being able to choose your parks, being able to choose to arrive early), and I'm in favor of financial options (people should be able to choose to spend more or spend less, to get different experiences. That includes everything from dining experience, to resort experience, to park experience. ) Just about everywhere, we see price distinction, especially in terms of leisure activities. You wouldn't walk into a restaurant and demand that everyone get the exact same meal for the exact same price. You wouldn't walk into a football game and demand to sit at the 50-year line for the same price as the bleacher seat.. You wouldn't start screaming at the airport when First class passengers are allowed to board an airplane while everyone else stands around waiting.. etc, etc. I don't believe that Disney fastpasses should be the one and only place in the entire free market universe where this basic price distinction should be a non-starter.

 

[Jennytoon]

I don't mean to be cold. But that already happens...
While you scrape to save to stay off-site... A family even less fortunate will stare jealously, "aren't you lucky that you get to go to Disney at all.. we will never have enough for a vacation like that..."
Meanwhile, the family who scraped to stay off site, will watch jealously as some people stream in and out of the more expensive restaurants..... Will watch as other people return to their rooms in the deluxe hotels, etc..

I think every parent has been asked at some point or another, "Why don't we get to do that? My friend did X, why can't we do X? etc, etc"

It's the way of the whole universe. You're asking Disney to carve out an exception that applies to your exact financial circumstance. Shouldn't they cut their prices to free, so that poor families don't need to say to their kids, "sorry that your friends can afford Disney World and we can't" Doesn't it leave a sour taste in your mouth to go to Disney World at all then, to be taking a vacation that lots of people can't afford at all?

It's ultimately a choice for EVERY family. Even if you are on the tightest of budgets, you are making the choice of whether to go on vacation, whether to go to Disney or someplace else... whether to save for another year, and make it a luxurious Disney vacation, or go now, and make it a barebones Disney vacation. It's always a choice.

And you're also suggesting, you have no problem with special purchased privileges, depending on how many people can get it?

So you have no problem if they charge $2,000 for extra fastpasses, but you would object if they charged $20?

You are not wrong in the examples you cite to indicate the difference in experience that families may have depending on their budget. However, I would argue that these are things families are well accustomed to when they have accepted the constraints of their budget. Families on a strict budget don't eat out at home. It is not new to watch people go into restaurants on vacation when they can't afford it. Families that are on a limited budget are already accustomed to the fact that their friends may go to Disney World but they will take cheaper vacations because it is what their family can afford. They may *wish* they could afford to go to Disney, but it does not make them feel that the vacation they did take was less, as they were taking it. I may choose to go to camping because it's cheaper than Disney, but I am not, the whole time I am camping, watching videos of people at Disney and thinking how it would be much nicer if I could be on their vacation.

However, it is a different thing to choose not to go to Disney because you can't afford it, than it is to go to Disney on a tight budget and have your experience lessened by watching as a significant number of people who could afford to pay more than you stream past you in the line, so that your own wait is longer. To me, that's rubbing your nose in it, in a way that actively makes your vacation lesser. Other people may not feel the same. I know my DH doesn't, and when we go to Uni in a couple of years we will stay at one of their Deluxe hotels, because I am in a no-win situation. I know that to a certain extent I am only fooling myself that I will not be paying for Express Pass, but it's an easier pill for me to swallow than paying for it outright, and not getting it at all would be not in his lexicon. Since I want to stay married (joking there), that's the compromise.

Also, note the italics on "significant number" above. It's not about the cost. It's about the impact. I'd be fine with $20 for extra FP if they limited the number to something that wouldn't have any significant impact on the people that didn't pay it (they'd probably have to lottery the ability to buy them at that point). What I'm not fine with is my 10 minutes less in line translating to 10 minutes more for someone else just because I ponied up some extra dough.

 

[wisblue]

Wow you're getting lucky with your waits for space, splash, and HM! I was just there about a month ago and by 10am all those wait times were 60 minutes!

If you saw wait times of 60 minutes for those 3 attractions at 10 AM on days in mid September, I have a few comments (1) you were extremely unlucky, (2) the information on Touring Plans about posted wait times on those dates is WAY off, and (3) this item from Josh at easywdw about crowds in September is also WAY off:

http://www.easywdw.com/uncategorize...what-the-lowest-crowds-of-the-year-look-like/

 

[flicx]

This thread has a lot of different observations, opinions, and theories, and even some different interpretations of the same facts. But, this one comment really piques my curiosity.

As someone who likes to study attraction capacities, you must agree that if a park has (1) the same number of people in attendance, (2) the same rides in operation, (3) the same park hours, and (4) rides operating at the same level of capacity, the total number of attractions experienced by all guests, and the average number of attractions per guest, will be the same, regardless of what type of FP system is in place or how long standby lines are.

The one factor I think that is missing is are all rides running efficiently as before plus? They may have the same capacity but are they loading at the same rates now that there is a huge increase in fast pass attractions (ie. two lines don't load as good as one)! I guess basically that would lower capacity if you would want to lump it all together!

 

[3DisneyFanz]

There is one point that is consistently being overlooked. Of the three fast passes you now get under plus only 1 or 2 of them existed under legacy. Most tier2 and 3 attractions didn't need fast pass under legacy. So in essence you are not even getting 3 true legacy fast passes. Now when you combine this fact with the inflated standby lines, you now get less attractions for your buck!

No you're looking at it wrong. It's not about increasing wait times but increasing usage. Thats why all those were added. Think how many more FP are given out now for parades, fireworks and Laugh Floor.