Why kids should work hard in school & stay there

[LuvOrlando]

I remember reading this in an Almanac or something like it when I was in High School and it always stuck with me. For the life of me I've never understood why, with all the Stay in school slogans out there no-one ever just printed out the Census Report linking earnings to education. Now don't get me wrong, I know some people out perform the average, and I know some under-perform it especially with the economy the way it is here and now. Still, the averages do not lie. According to the census higher education gives people a better chance at success.

I don't fight with my kids, I just hand them the grocery receipt and tell them to do the math themselves. More eye opening is when I sit them down looking over our household budget from time to time when we go over gross earnings, net after tax earnings and how much it costs to keep them in the lifestyle they think is so very ordinary. Even better is when I have them look at a receipt for something they think is easy breezy and we go back to figure out how many hours they'd need to work for that thing if they made minimum wage - taxes. Why use words when math does such a better job?

www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

 

[Pigeon]

Dh is a high school teacher in a very blue collar area. His school is constantly battling the dropout problem. It is astounding how many parents come to parent teacher conferences and honestly don't give a hoot if their kid drops out of school. Better s/he should get a low paying job now. Many of these parents have their thinking shaped by an era in which it was possible to get a decent paying job in a local factory, but alas, those jobs are few and far between these days. If the kid gets this at home, there's not a whole lot the school can do to overcome it.

The other problem is that kids that age often have very little understanding of delayed gratification. You can show them census data all day long, but they refuse to believe it applies to them.

 

[LuvOrlando]

You're poor DH, that must be very frustrating for him.

I am assuming the parents are being instrumental in trying to encourage kids to work at school. A kid whose parents have no regard for education is probably going to do exactly what he/she is told. A kid set up to fail probably won't disappoint anyone in pursuing that goal.

I don't necessarily think it's beyond them because my DD10 & DS12 get it. All it requires is a few exercises in real world finance and a touch of patience. Even the poorest of poor kids understands that if you want $100 sneakers you need to work X hours to get them if you only make $Y and hour with $Z deducted for taxes. But if you go to college and make $$$$ per hour, you may only need to work 1/2 day to buy those sneakers. As long as it's in terms the kids can relate to they'll get it, you just have to find the currency... everyone wants SOMETHING.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I am assuming the parents are being instrumental in trying to encourage kids to work at school. A kid whose parents have no regard for education is probably going to do exactly what he/she is told. A kid set up to fail probably won't disappoint anyone in pursuing that goal.

I don't necessarily think it's beyond them because my DD10 & DS12 get it. All it requires is a few exercises in real world finance and a touch of patience.

That is who the slogans were targeted to so you can't assume them out.

My dh was a HS dropout. He did get his college degree though.

Also most of the dropouts either work instead of go to HS or don't see the point in graduating since they are not going to college and will be working min. wage jobs anyway.

 

[Pigeon]

I don't necessarily think it's beyond them because my DD10 & DS12 get it. All it requires is a few exercises in real world finance and a touch of patience. Even the poorest of poor kids understands that if you want $100 sneakers you need to work X hours to get them if you only make $Y and hour with $Z deducted for taxes. But if you go to college and make $$$$ per hour, you may only need to work 1/2 day to buy those sneakers. As long as it's in terms the kids can relate to they'll get it, you just have to find the currency... everyone wants SOMETHING.

There's actually a growing body of literature showing that teenage brains are developmentally physically different from adult brains. People with less developed cognitive control networks, as adolescents have, prefer smaller immediate rewards to later, larger rewards. Certainly parental influence and early training can compensate for some of this, but at the end of the day, teenagers do think differently than more mature individuals.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Mystery Machine, why would any kid assume they're not going to college, shouldn't or can't? It sounds like the situation is treated as a forgone conclusion by the schools, but it doesn't have to be. Sure, some kids will just do as they are told but not all kids will. Sounds like the High Schools are doing a poor job making kids aware that student loans exist and that State/City colleges are just as good as the private ones.

Come to think of it, my own HS did a horrible job explain the concept of student loans to me. I went to CUNY because I knew no-one would pay more for me. Don't get me wrong, I got an excellent education, but I knew zero about the fact that there were options for me outside of what my family was willing to do for me. I thought only the poorest of the poor kids got help paying for college and everyone less than homeless was on their own.

IF I had known I could get a student loan and leave my house I so would have been all over that. AS it was I lived home when I was in college but away would have been light-years better. None-the-less, first you have to convince people they are better off with an education than without if before you tackle the hows, whats & wheres, KWIM.

 

[LuvOrlando]

There's actually a growing body of literature showing that teenage brains are developmentally physically different from adult brains. People with less developed cognitive control networks, as adolescents have, prefer smaller immediate rewards to later, larger rewards. Certainly parental influence and early training can compensate for some of this, but at the end of the day, teenagers do think differently than more mature individuals.

Yes but the idea that you need $ABC to pay for something that costs $ABC isn't exactly stretching the mind. Even a 6 year old that gets money from the tooth fairy can understand that.

So yes they are impulsive but I'm pretty sure they understand having money is better than being poor.

I don't think they are completely devoid of the capacity to understand basic ideas. Of course, kids respond better to some teachers than others so maybe it would require a certain amount of finesse to reach some kids, but the idea they are all unreachable so we shouldn't bother trying kind of gets to me. My family was an absolute nightmare yet here I am with a diploma on my wall. Just because they were a mess didn't mean I had to follow their footsteps, and I didn't.

My point is, the info is pretty plain and kids should be exposed to it. Nothing against your point of view but making the assumption no-one should bother because they are a lost cause just doesn't do it for me, but that's just me.

 

[laurafergie]

I just want to throw out here that teenagers very much live in the "now". Even if they intellectually recognize that to buy $ABC they have to make $ABC - sometimes life circumstances will derail that, and if there is not an adult to keep them (the teenager) on track - it is just easier NOW to just not do anything or only do enough to get by.

ps- I have personal experience in this - we ended up with an extra teenager at 16 years old, when her mother left her alone in their apartment. She was working to eat, and thus couldn't make it to school every day, didn't have any utilities turned on. She called me when she was failed for the year at school. Now 3 years later she is in college. Would she have taken Dual Enrollment in High School and gone on to college in her previous circumstances? NO. She would have done what she could to survive.

 

[Pigeon]

Oh believe me, our kids get the sermons about future earning potential all the time. They are college bound. I certainly don't think it's a bad idea for any parent to discuss this many times with their kids.

But, for a lot of kids, it's going to fall on deaf ears, and thinking it's a straightforward matter of them changing their minds because you show them the numbers is simplistic. They understand that it takes money to get something. But they see it as $100 now is a whole lot better than $200 that may or may not materialize somewhere off in some distant future. And four years can be a very long time to a teenager. It's that delayed gratification thing they don't see.

They also have some very peculiar notions of how they might get wealthy in the future. Yeah, the NBA might show up at your door with a checkbook, but the odds aren't good.

Dh's school absolutely gives kids lots of information about college and financial aid. But you cannot force them to apply, particularly if their parents are dead set against it.

 

[punkin]

In DD17's high school 98% of kids graduate and the vast majority of those go either to college or the military. Some kids do get it.

 

[Handbag Lady]

Think back, those of us who went to college. Why did we go to college and where was that mindset?


Mine was always there, planted by my parents. There just never was a question. My sister and I were going to college. It didn't matter where. It didn't matter in what field. But, it was mentioned so many times and drilled into us, I was shocked when in Junior High that this one kid was looking forward to turning 18 so he could quit school. I was thrown for a loop because it never occurred to me to quit school until I finished college.

I don't think drop-outs today had this encouragement their entire lives.

I think we need to start earlier and with the parents when their kids are young.

 

[Acklander]

Mystery Machine, why would any kid assume they're not going to college, shouldn't or can't? It sounds like the situation is treated as a forgone conclusion by the schools, but it doesn't have to be. Sure, some kids will just do as they are told but not all kids will. Sounds like the High Schools are doing a poor job making kids aware that student loans exist and that State/City colleges are just as good as the private ones.

Because the reality is, not every kid is college material. Someone's got to work the trades and someone's got to work the menial jobs.
Look at it this way - if every single kid stayed in school until graduation, and then every one of those kids took out a college loan and went to college, what would you end up with? Millions of kids all trying for the same few while collar jobs with student loans hanging over their heads. So those kids would be working the minimum wage jobs while waiting for the opportunity to work in what they were educated in, while there's no one available to fix the plumbing.
Instead of waving census figures in front of kids who have no desire/ability to be successful in college how about we focus on training those kids in jobs, where they can make a living wage. Ask your politicians to make sure that programs such as Job Corps are adequately funded. Ask those in your community that work in the trades to mentor youths in developing skills that they can use to earn a living wage.
And most of all, stop telling kids that unless they complete college they are doomed to a life of minimum wage. Instead help them find their gift and work to the best of their ability.

 

[eeyoremum]

I have a different approach. Both my kids know that the best way to live the way they live now is to go to college or university.

They also know that if they drop out or choose not to attend higher education they will be show the door.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Mystery Machine, why would any kid assume they're not going to college, shouldn't or can't? It sounds like the situation is treated as a forgone conclusion by the schools, but it doesn't have to be. Sure, some kids will just do as they are told but not all kids will. Sounds like the High Schools are doing a poor job making kids aware that student loans exist and that State/City colleges are just as good as the private ones.

Come to think of it, my own HS did a horrible job explain the concept of student loans to me. I went to CUNY because I knew no-one would pay more for me. Don't get me wrong, I got an excellent education, but I knew zero about the fact that there were options for me outside of what my family was willing to do for me. I thought only the poorest of the poor kids got help paying for college and everyone less than homeless was on their own.

IF I had known I could get a student loan and leave my house I so would have been all over that. AS it was I lived home when I was in college but away would have been light-years better. None-the-less, first you have to convince people they are better off with an education than without if before you tackle the hows, whats & wheres, KWIM.

Well I could write you a book.

1. You have parents that REFUSE to fill out the FAFSA. This is because generally they are not paying their taxes/doing illegal stuff or they do not want to have there info out their for the government because of their children. (I know it sounds crazy but it is true.)
Also many parents without higher education will take a look at the FAFSA and be unable to figure it out themselves. If the child would try to ask the parents about their taxes or money a lot of them would get the look like, I am NOT sharing my finances with YOU.

I wanted to add that my DH was able to get around his mother not filling out the FAFSA 20yrs ago, but today that just does not fly. His mom was mentally ill and no way was she revealing anything to the GOVERNMENT!

2. College is looked down upon in the home. A few weeks ago we visited BIL/SIL who homeschool their kids and are poor for the most part.
We asked the older kid who is 16 about college and he proudly stated that he is not going. (Dad is a blue collar worker and thinks college is for "those people").

3. They do not meet the requirements for going to college since they had dropped out of HS or did poorly. They feel stupid like they cannot do it.

4. Money, people do not have it period. They need money to pay for their own expenses. Heck my dd is a college freshman. We had to take out loans and so does she. If we did not take out loans she would not have been able to be where she is at. MANY parents WILL NOT take out loans for their child's education, period.

5. Support system. My EXSIL was discouraging my nephew from doing the "college dream" thing in a dorm. We really had to coach him and keep him uplifted that he can do it. (Kicker is they sent him to a private school, however other kicker is the public school is full of drugs and violence.) Good news for him he got money and has a small loan.

Anyway he is a freshman this yr along with my dd and they are hanging in there.

 

[luvmy3]

I have a different approach. Both my kids know that the best way to live the way they live now is to go to college or university.

They also know that if they drop out or choose not to attend higher education they will be show the door.

So, if your kids decide that they want to work full time instead of going to college, you will kick them out? Yikes.

My father had always planned for me to go to college, and all through HS there was no question that is what I was supposed to do. Well guess what, I had bills and responsibilities and sitting in class 5 days a week wasn't paying for them so I decided to work 2 jobs instead. I know it broke my father's heart andhe was disappointed and angry at me for me decision, but he was still there for me.

 

[MrsPete]

The other problem is that kids that age often have very little understanding of delayed gratification. You can show them census data all day long, but they refuse to believe it applies to them.

Delayed gratification, absolutely! Here's another key: Kids are capable of double-think. They KNOW all these things are true . . . and at the very same time, they don't think THEY THEMSELVES will be affected by these facts. Somehow they believe themselves to be different, unique, 'specially blessed, or just in the right place at the right time.

They're very capable of believing that the rules of life don't apply to them:
A cute little girl can believe with all her heart that she's going to marry her boyfriend, and he'll be able to support her. She's going to stay at home in her lovely home, shopping, having her hair/nails done, and taking care of their perfectly behaved children.
A only child believes that he's going to be just fine because his parents are going to leave everything to him; he might have it rough for a few years, but then he'll inherit allll that money! (or fill in the name of a business)
A boy with a little bit of athletic ability believes he's going to get that scholarship and in a couple years will make it to the NBA or the NFL (or substitute musical ability -- that's just about as realistic).
A kid from the wrong side of the tracks can see just the opposite: If her people have always made it just fine on welfare, why should she bother to do anything different? People who claim college is better just don't know; they're trying to pull a fast one on people like her -- people who have it all figured out!

If a friend told them, "This is my plan", and they saw it all laid out in black and white . . . well, they'd recognize that it's pure imagination. They'd realize that it isn't going to happen. But when it comes to their own lives, it somehow seems to make sense to them.

I'm thinking of two of my students who came back to see me a year after graduation. They informed me that they were now the President and Vice President of a major Engineering firm. They went on to explain that all they had to do was finish earning their engineering degrees, open an office, get some clients, and . . . welll, that'd be that! In their minds, they were already CEOs. That was about 7-8 years ago, and I recently saw one of them working at McDonalds.

Lots of students tell me about plans for the future, which have no base in reality. They seem to think that THEY are soooo much smarter than the previous generations, and these things will work for them. They don't understand why their parents didn't invest more for their college educations, why their parents didn't buy a bigger house or start a business, etc. THEY are going to do things differently, smarter -- but at the same time, they don't expect to have to work all that much. They expect that they'll be able to drop into the office a little late, leave a little early, and take days off whenever they and their friends want to take a long weekend. Yeah, Dad and Mom DO seem to work more, but they're just not working smart! They must be wasting time goofing off on the 'net or chatting with friends. The teens are going to work smart, not hard -- never mind that they don't really know what that means. They anticipate owning their own businesses or becoming VPs by 30 or so -- 35 at the latest! Very unrealistic.

It's just like schoolwork. They KNOW that the paper's due in a week . . . that they'd better get started . . . that it's going to take some time . . . and yet they're perfectly capable of waiting 'til the night before to begin working. They KNOW it matters, yet they don't dig in and begin.

Double-think. Teens excel at it.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I must be missing something here because I don't get the debate.

My point is show kids the realities of life and it might work in flipping a switch. I don't get the arguments against it.

Should no-one bother with any of the kids because some won't respond?

 

[MrsPete]

I must be missing something here because I don't get the debate.

My point is show kids the realities of life and it might work in flipping a switch. I don't get the arguments against it.

Should no-one bother with any of the kids because some won't respond?

I've had a poster with similar information hanging on my wall for years -- I forget what agency sent them out to us. Students look at it, acknowledge it, and yet continue doing the same things they've been doing all along.

It's not a debate. Just a comment on the way kids' brains work. Actually, adults don't always accept logic either.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Just because it doesn't work for all doesn't mean it's ok to stop trying. What if being lax means the one kid who would have responded misses the message?

If so then WOW, I have no other words than WOW, I'm glad I wasn't one of those kids from a messed up home you told yourselves not to bother with... I didn't know I was supposed to be a lost cause.

 

[Docwoods]

I've always told my daughter that the fastest way to getting everything you want in life is through education.Doesn't have to be college-could be a vocational school.Some kids aren't college material.