Why I HATE Southwest Airlines...

[AllyBri]

Um, according to their website http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_qa.html they do
"Why can't a large Customer sit with a family member who doesn't mind being encroached upon or a small child/person who doesn't take a full seat?
Open seating cannot guarantee that two people will be able to sit together. In addition, we must treat the smaller person (despite willingness or personal relationship) as a valued Customer who deserves the use of a full seat. Most importantly, we have to consider the safety aspect of the family member whose movement (especially in the event of an emergency) could be compromised if encroached on by a large seatmate.
"

C'mom the flight had 20 people and the FA had to know that. Now I realize rules are rules, but common sense has to come into play at sometime.

My other Mistake was, I was thinking of Delta-Song, where for the most part, they treat people like human beings.

That FA was way out of line. The fact that she brought someone else up to check out the OP was way out of line.

 

[Esmerelda]

I'm sorry but its not discriminatory. (they have won this argument in court before). Its one of their rules/policies. If you read the rules first you would have realized it.

Families don't always sit together anyhow on SW...its open seating.

I have a friend (a large friend) who was forced to buy an extra seat due to her size and she refuses to fly with them due to this. I explained to her that its VERY uncomfortable to sit or try to get up to go around a larger person if you are small like me (5'1", 115#). I have flown many business trips sitting next to a larger person and it was most unenjoyable. I commend SW for their rules because we all deserve to be comfortable when we are flying whether we are big or small.....nuff said

Esmerelda

 

[kaytieeldr]

However, the issue of passenger size and cost of seat should be addressed during the ticketing process (not at boarding). Airlines would only need to address the larger passengers that had not indicated their large size at ticketing upon boarding. (especially since boarding passes can often be printed off from a remote computer).

I'm not sure I see the sensibility of addressing size at the time of ticketing.
- People can lie about their size
- Not every person of size (or not) is the same shape
- Whether or not one fits in a single seat with the armrests down depends on the person's build, not their weight or size
- Most passengers purchase tickets online or over the phone, so there's nobody available to determine the passenger's 'fit' until they get to the airport, or possibly even on the plane.

 

[Lewisc]

I think OP was flying a N/S flight but in some cases there may be plenty of seats leaving MCO but the flight could fill up at the stop.

The GA explained the policy and OP continued to debate the issue until it was clear paying for the extra seat was the only way she was going to get on the flight. A general observation, not just with SW COS policy, sometimes an employee is going to stick to the rules and not make an exception. Continuing to debate and argue the point is just a waste of time.

The problem wouldn't have occured if the FA on the way down said something like in the future I suggest you purchase a second seat.

 

[Honeybehr1]

What would happen if you are "Pooh" size and they required you to purchase anthoer ticket but the plane is sold out? would they make you rebook on another flight?

 

[Lewisc]

What would happen if you are "Pooh" size and they required you to purchase anthoer ticket but the plane is sold out? would they make you rebook on another flight?

They might, that's why you're required to purchase the second seat when you make your reservation. If you don't fit in one seat SW has to either bump the COS who didn't reserve the second seat, and isn't owed compensation, or bump another passenger and pay them compensation.

 

[branv]

I get both sides of this, I really do. I am plus sized, but can still fit in an airplane seat. I actually have more argument with men with really broad shoulders then I do someone with a larger rear. It's no fun spending the whole flight leaned over to one side and of COURSE they take both armrests. It truly isn't fair to someone to be uncomfortable b/c of anothers weight issues. Supposedly, however, this policy isn't about comfort, but "safety".

On the other hand, I know as much as anyone that not all weight issues are about gorging oneself. Sometimes it is but there are also areas such as thyroid/hormone issues, injuries/illness causing limited mobility preventing exercise and lowering metabolism, drugs that cause swelling or rapid weight gain. It's simply not a clear cut issue...so I have problems saying it's 100% fair one way or the other.

BUT, anyone who flies knows by now that it is airline policy, and as such should be prepared before they board.

I think the SW person should go through some SERIOUS personnel and customer service training. Her behavior was ridiculous, and I absolutely agree she was on a power trip (or just a sadistic you know what). If airlines are going to do things this way, they need to have a more consistent precise policy combined with sensitivity training and enforcement.

That being said, I consider this more the airlines forcing others to pay the $$ for a problem their own greed helped to create. They actually decreased the seat sizes in order to cram more seats in, but haven't lowered those seat prices to reflect our loss of comfort. Then they say that if you can't fit comfortably in these smaller seats, you have to pay for another one. It's a shell game. Anyone remember when American increased their seat sizes, then after a bit, realized they were losing too much money and went back to the old ones? But their flights were still just as full...just not the same profit. God forbid nowadays that you get a decent service experience for a fair price. I can understand cut rate airlines getting away with this, but the prices you have to pay for coach on regular airlines..jeeez!

 

[Lewisc]

American had increased the leg room but found passengers weren't willing to pay any extra.

We're only hearing the OP side of the story. She needed a seat belt extender and talks about her child only requiring half of his seat. It sounds like she needs a second seat. OP doesn't really say the SW employee was rude so much as the employee insisted on enforcing SW policy. Dragging the employee up was a little over the edge but once OP continued to argue the employee may have had no choice but to check with the other employee. An employee for any company isn't rude or mean just because the decide not to make an exception.

I'll completely disagree with your comment about the airline's greed being responsible for smaller seats. It's our greed or at least cheapness in demanding the lowest possible fares that is responsible for the low level of amenities. Other than first class the seats are abou the same width, the difference is with the pitch or legroom. A COS of size gets to purchase 2 seats and generally gets a refund, particularly if they schedule a flight off peak. That's far cheaper than booking one first class ticket with a legacy airline.

I get both sides of this, I really do. I am plus sized, but can still fit in an airplane seat. I actually have more argument with men with really broad shoulders then I do someone with a larger rear. It's no fun spending the whole flight leaned over to one side and of COURSE they take both armrests. It truly isn't fair to someone to be uncomfortable b/c of anothers weight issues. Supposedly, however, this policy isn't about comfort, but "safety".

On the other hand, I know as much as anyone that not all weight issues are about gorging oneself. Sometimes it is but there are also areas such as thyroid/hormone issues, injuries/illness causing limited mobility preventing exercise and lowering metabolism, drugs that cause swelling or rapid weight gain. It's simply not a clear cut issue...so I have problems saying it's 100% fair one way or the other.

BUT, anyone who flies knows by now that it is airline policy, and as such should be prepared before they board.

I think the SW person should go through some SERIOUS personnel and customer service training. Her behavior was ridiculous, and I absolutely agree she was on a power trip (or just a sadistic you know what). If airlines are going to do things this way, they need to have a more consistent precise policy combined with sensitivity training and enforcement.

That being said, I consider this more the airlines forcing others to pay the $$ for a problem their own greed helped to create. They've decreased the seat sizes in order to cram more seats in, but haven't lowered those seat prices to reflect our loss of comfort. Then they say that if you can't fit comfortably in these smaller seats, you have to pay for another one. It's a shell game. Anyone remember when American increased their seat sizes, then after a bit, realized they were losing too much money and went back to the old ones?

 

[branv]

I would respectfully counter that it's much more complicated then people being rabid for the lowest airfare. Firstly, it's my opinion (and as we know what they always say about opinions ) that it's not the customers greed, but us being more informed now. Airlines would previously charge customers hugely varied rates for taking the very same flight (which they still do, just harder for them now). There was not a consistent or fair policy of charging one rates...b/c we simply didn't KNOW what those rates could be, what was available to us. I think it's less that we are looking for a bargain, but more that we are looking for fairness. I think there are some people who go overboard with what they expect for their $$, but what that would be assuming most of the people spending money on the flights are vacationers. However, a huge proportion are business travelers. Business travelers rarely do any work to get the cheapest fare, they simply buy what they need and take that flight for whatever it costs (when I travel with DH on one of his business trips, generally his ticket purchased via the corporate travel agency will cost 50-200% more then the ticket I purchased online.)

Though I wonder where these cheap fares are on airlines other then Southwest. Pricing to Orlando for January, during a low travel time shows me $350 RT. I really feel that airlines cost cutting meaures have little to do with customer demand for low fares, and everything to do with the recession, the 9/11 shut down and the post-9/11 fall off. We're still paying the same or more for less (less seat size, less service, less arrival/departure accuracy) so that airlines can increase profits out of the red.

There are days I really wish we had a better train network

 

[maryliz]

You shouldn't infringe on the rights of another person, just because you choose to be overweight.

FYI ... people don't CHOOSE to be overweight ... there are many factors, and I'm not saying that a chosen lifestyle of food choices and mobility factors couldn't certainly contribute. But YOU have no idea why anyone in this world might be overweight, so please don't make such a blanket, totally ignorant statement.

MaryLiz

 

[Lewisc]

I would counter that with the fact that it's not the customers greed, but us being more informed now. Airlines would previously charge customers hugely varied rates for taking the very same flight (which they still do, just harder for them now).

Greed may not be the right word but it's clear customers book based on price. American found customers won't pay a premium for more leg room. Another airline tried fair pricing and found customers would book with the discount carriers that undercut their everyday pricing. Flights from the NE to FL are low. Sub $200 R/T fares are common and fare sales under $120 R/T still exist. Another airline, Midwest?, found price was more important and I think they dropped the meals form many flights.

How many posts do you find on the transportation board from members looking for the best fare? When will SW will have the next DING from their city? How you can get a credit when the fare goes down on your ticket? Now how many posts do you find from a member asking which airline has the best seats or offers meals?

Maryliz--some overweight people may not chose to be overweight but a COS can chose to try to avoid buying a second seat. If the customer next to me is occupying part of my seat it really doesn't matter if the customer is overweight due to a medical condition or due to poor eating habits.

I sat next to a passenger who fit into his seat, barely, but was annoyed when I kept my hand on the armrest so it couldn't be raised. Although it was clear that he shouldn't be required to purchase a second seat but he would have been more comfortable if had purchased one.

 

[granmanh603]

Just a short question about original poster....what airline did you fly down on from Boston since Southwest doesn't fly out of there?

 

[Skroops]

I don't like to hear that feelings were hurt. There would be no way to approach a large sized woman about her size without her heart rate increasing. No matter what occured (factual or not) on the airplane before take off, it would have felt emotional.
That being said, rules are rules. This society is used to ignoring them. Whenever someone enforces them, it makes them the bad guy. The people ignoring the rules in your favor are just expected to. Inconsistency is the bigger issue. With airline fares the lowest I've ever seen them in my life, many people are flying that expect the service that used to be. Generally, air travel is completely changed from what people once knew it as. The airlines are losing money rapidly and they are looking for their employees to help fund everyone elses vacations by increasing work loads and even demanding pay cuts. Keep that in mind when your check in agent is rushing you or your drink takes longer to arrive.
This industry will be very interesting to watch in the next few years. It used to be very expensive to fly. I honestly don't understand how these airlines are staying in business. Speculation says they wont. But this is all another topic...

 

[C.Ann]

That being said, rules are rules. This society is used to ignoring them. Whenever someone enforces them, it makes them the bad guy..

------------

True.. People have a job to do and they do it.. Some to the letter, some not.. But if they are to make "exceptions" to the rule, where does it end? Eventually everyone would want to be the exception..

SW makes their policy regarding COS crystal clear.. If people choose to "chance" not buying the additional seat in hopes of slipping through, but then get snagged on another leg of the journey, they pretty much have brought that embarrassment on themselves.. There would have been no incident AT ALL if the rules had been followed.. It's unfair to blame the employee and/or airline..

 

[Pinnie]

Mama always said there are 2 sides to every story. Unfortunately we are only hearing the OPs side. I am sure the FA or GA has a side too!

I have been on 13 flights since June this summer on SPIRIT, NWA and SWA and I have to admit the better service has been on SWA! I can depend on SWA's schedule to get me where I need to go when they post the schedule. SPIRIT no longer serves snacks or has pillows or blankets. NWA no longer has pillows or snacks. SWA still serves a snack, albeit small, but the interaction with the FAs is fun. I am due to fly home on Sunday (Aug 21) on NWA just when the mechanics strike is due to start. Wonder what kind of service I am going to get? Yesterday at PVD we had a delay getting out on NWA and the gate agent wasn't telling us much. We took a walk down to the SWA gates and they were explaining the weather delay to their pax. Sad that I had to find out WHY from another airline!!!

What we fail to realize is that the OPs flight may have originated at MCO, it could have stopped in BNA and THAT flight could have been full, hence the need for another seat. As it has been said, SWA's open seating policy does NOT mean that you will be sitting with your family.

I guess people have to realize that their rights end at the seat of the person next to him/her and I am glad that SWA is proactive in their policy and I wish that all the other carriers would enforce the rules the same way.

pinnie

 

[kaytieeldr]

Just a short question about original poster....what airline did you fly down on from Boston since Southwest doesn't fly out of there?

That's funny - I was just thinking the same thing!

Southwest does codeshare with ATA out of Boston (although the fares are nothing to write home about). I wonder if the OP actually flew ATA from BOS to MCO, then flew Southwest from MCO to either PVD or MHT. That would explain the difference in action by the Gate Agent.

Whatever the actual event, it most certainly could have been handled more discreetly. Those of us who watch Airline know that Southwest Gate Agents will sometimes preboard a potential Customer of Size to see if that passenger really does fit into one seat with the armrests down.

 

[SillyOldBear]

I never realized that my post would be a hot topic. I never said that I wouldn't purchase another seat ever. Before this trip I had flown on SW 5 other times. I never encountered this second seat issue. I was more mad at the inconsistancy of the policy. (which by the way I had no idea of) On the way down out of PVD (sorry I didn't make that clear, we flew PVD round trip nonstop) we had even gotten there late and the plane was all boarded. We made it in five minutes. The only seats available were at the back of the plane and split up. I even took one of the FA to the back and explained to her that I needed to sit next to my son because I needed to raise the armrest. She got on the intercom and asked if anyone sitting together would be willing to give up their seats together. She even offered free drink coupons!!!! Someone eventually switched and we sat together. Now don't flame me for this! If a seat wasn't available together I would have flown on a later flight and taken my chances or bought another seat. If I was to EVER fly by myself and not with my family I would DEFINATELY buy another seat. I undertand that people do not want to be encrouched upon. I am not feeling entitled to only purchase 1 seat. As for the people who are so ready to judge a persons weight by their eating habits, you are naive. Everyone has a unique story. My story was only to spare embarrassment to anyone else and let people know that this is a SW policy that some, like I, were unaware of.

 

[seashoreCM]

I I actually have more argument with men with really broad shoulders then I do someone with a larger rear. It's no fun spending the whole flight leaned over to one side and of COURSE they take both armrests. jeeez!

Taking up part of your seat higher up is also to be dealt with.

You have every right to profile your seatmate as to the likelihood of being obnoxious but not mentioning that subject when you ask to be reseated prior to departure.

For now I will have to leave it up to you as to whether to press for reseating you versus put the airline on notice that if the other person keeps elbowing you the airline as well as the other person will be charged with assault. Immediately followed by your offer to accept a cash payment, say $100., in exchange for not pressing assault charges.

How so? At that point, it is the smaller passenger who is voluntarily electing to leave the airplane (since, at that point, the airline was willing to let both passengers fly), so no compensation is warranted, AFAIK.

The smaller passenger would not actually voluntarily leave the airplane until offered satisfactory compensation. If the airline ultimately did not satisfy the aggrieved passenger, in small claims court said passenger would argue that the airline did not provide decent and proper seating.

 

[pospisil]

I have to come to the defense of the OP. I am a large woman, and had no idea that this policy existed until I read it on this board. I made my reservations in person with my TA, and she didn't mention it. To find it on SW's website, you have to go looking for it.

I think it's not the fairness or unfairness of the policy that's the problem, it's the arbitrary way it is enforced. The way I understand it, the check in person just looks at you and decides, before you get anywhere near the plane. I wouldn't want them measuring me, but why can't they put a couple of rows of seats the same size as the plane seats in the check in waiting area? A person could discreetly sit and definitively prove whether they fit or not. It would eliminate the guesswork. A person could even go to the airport ahead of time and sit down, and they would know for sure whether they needed to get an extra seat or not. It's easy to say to just get the extra seat, and get the refund, but some people don't have the money to pay for an extra plane ticket, especially when they are scrimping to pay for a vacation, and the ticket may not even be necessary.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I wouldn't want them measuring me, but why can't they put a couple of rows of seats the same size as the plane seats in the check in waiting area? A person could discreetly sit and definitively prove whether they fit or not. It would eliminate the guesswork. A person could even go to the airport ahead of time and sit down, and they would know for sure whether they needed to get an extra seat or not. It's easy to say to just get the extra seat, and get the refund, but some people don't have the money to pay for an extra plane ticket, especially when they are scrimping to pay for a vacation, and the ticket may not even be necessary.

THAT'S not a bad idea!!! In fact, rather than out in the waiting area, and depending on the design of the airport, they could install a couple of "test" seats behind the wall that's behind the gate counter. This would give the passenger a bit of privacy and reduce their public embarrassment.