Why have you NOT bought DVC?

[Mouseaholic!!!]

Oh I am sorry, I thought this was a public board for anyone to post on. You are more than welcome to come on over to the DVC board, you'd probably post more there than I do.

Thanks for the invite!

 

[tidefan]

While I respect your opinion and note that you have made several good points throughout the thread, I thought I would point out that if you invested the money in an interest-bearing account of some sort (doesn't matter what) and you used all of the earnings thereon to take vacations, you would lose purchasing power in the principal as inflation increased. Technically, you'd be losing money too. There clearly is no real way to make money on spending money on vacations. The principal would be "depreciating" in a sense...just like a member's ownership interest in DVC. Of course you would still have the principal and could spend it on something else (clearly making it much more liquid than a DVC ownership interest) but it would be interesting to determine, based on inflation, how the value of your principal compared to the value of the depreciating DVC ownership over time. Obviously the cash is still going to be worth more in most cases, but it would still be an interesting comparison.

Posted this already back on page #12 or so, but here it is again:

So, just a question to play Devil's Advocate...

These vacations you are going to take every year, are they an investment? Is it a bad idea for you to go on vacations every year?

Let's suppose you have $15000 and you do invest it and vacation with it and that your lodging averages for arguments sake, say $1500. OK, so initially, if you are vacationing every year, the first year you spend $1500, so you really only invest $13,500.

Move to Year 2, let's say you return 10%, but accommodations increase 5%. You now have $14,850. Take out $1575 for this years trip, you now have $13,275, etc.

I run out of money after 13 years. So you don't really come out ahead this way either.

If you want to invest the money, leave it alone for the long term. That is the only way to really accumulate wealth. Following this logic, your point above should be generalized to "vacations are not an investment, for most people they are probably a very bad idea".

I agree that DVC is a prepaid accommodations timeshare. It is most definitely NOT for everyone. Never said it was. It works for people that choose to vacation on-site at WDW or other Disney properties (Hilton Head, Vero, Anaheim(Sooner), and Hawaii(later)). If you do not enjoy Disney vacations at least once every two years, then DVC is not for you. If you like value resorts, most likely DVC is not for you. But to put a blanket statement out like that is not necessarily applicable.

Yes, it is cheaper just to go to the beach, but if you enjoy Disney, DVC can be a cost saver.

Just my .02...

 

[clkelley]

I was hoping some people could help me see it different ways...for obvious reason I didn't post this on the DVC board. But honestly, my question goes to those who got to WDW every year, especially those who pay to stay in Deluxes, and have chosen not to buy DVC? I'm torn...i mean...it seems like a good deal...they say it pays for itself in about 7 vacations...i just don't see us ever have the $$$$ to pay for that big chunk, and DH would not want to finance it...so?? Just lookinf for some opinions on Disney experts! Thanks!

We haven't bought for two reasons.

(1) We prefer the moderates/values and the campground over the deluxe resorts.

(2) We're not retired yet and weekends are a big part of our trips and DVC point requirements are higher on the weekends.

Perhaps once we retire, if we're not fulltiming in a RV, we'll look into DVC.

 

[jodifla]

Still haven't said how much you have totally spent over the time since you know you paid it off.
1) You are the one saying you saved so much money.
2) I could set aside the money as an investment and use the interest for my "vacation taking". The money would still be my bank account, not disneys'.
3) If you've been to Europe, they travel and commute much more so by train and public transport, not so as much as by car. Your argument that current European tourism is undeterred by oil prices is a weak one, The very weak weak dollar drives current European tourism, making the travel a value.
3) Covered wagon? Are you confusing settlers and tourists?

I'm ballparking, because frankly, we've considered it a great deal and didn't do the whole spread sheet thing.

But we've probably spent around $20,000 TOTAL in our initial outlay and dues for 12 years. And all our stays would have cost at least $30,000 using expedia rates, not rack rates. And frankly, it's probably a lot closer to 40 grand worth of accommodations.

And EACH YEAR, it gets to be an even better ratio, as rooms are skyrocketing in prices, but the DVC points needed for them are fixed. So next year, if we have spent $20,850 in total outlay, but have stayed another 10 nights in rooms going for at least $300 a night, that will $33,000 worth of rooms for our outlay. And since 5 of those nights will be in two bedrooms, it will actually be more like $35,000 for our $20,850.

Those numbers work for me.

Again, they pay high gas prices in Europe, and did even when the dollar was quite strong. And despite high gas prices, Europeans still travel. SO WILL AMERICANS!

 

[AlexTina]

The above poster mentions that points are fixed as opposed to room prices which increase each year. I did not know that the points it takes to stay per night were fixed this gives me even more incentive to buy in. I actually got a call today from DVC and it sounds like they have some great incentives going on right now. Hmmmm, we may have to take a closer look on our next trip only 18 days to go.

 

[jenfur]

DH and I have been kicking the idea around for years. Our vacations to Disney are starting to run $6500 a year for one trip, 7 nights. We would like to go more than once a year, and we have become very accustomed to the deluxe resorts. We haven't bought into DVC yet because we like being able to stay anywhere we want and we haven't really crunched the numbers to compare. I also like housekeeping. We have no problem financing it, and looking at what we pay now- it seems like a bargain. We just haven't had that "we gotta do this!" moment yet. Of course we haven't went to a presentation either.....

 

[dalstitch45]

I go solo on many of my trips, and I cannot justify the cost for the DVC membership. Here are some of the other variables I considered when deciding to buy or not:

1. The numbers are just not adding up for me, especially when no one really likes to go but me. Plus, the discounts I've gotten on "room only" rates have been far better as opposed to the "rack room" rates DVC is based on.

2. I like the housekeeping. It's a feature I want when on vacation.

3. I just was not impressed with some of the DVC properties. SSR was number one on that list.

4. I always get AP's every year. As a regular renewal you get a $50 savings anyway.

5. Someties I like staying at other resorts/hotels in Orlando. The Gaylord Palms, Hilton, and Marriott are my favorites.

 

[jodifla]

The above poster mentions that points are fixed as opposed to room prices which increase each year. I did not know that the points it takes to stay per night were fixed this gives me even more incentive to buy in. I actually got a call today from DVC and it sounds like they have some great incentives going on right now. Hmmmm, we may have to take a closer look on our next trip only 18 days to go.

as an addendum to this, they can change the points, but if one point price goes up, another must come down equally.

For example, they switched the things around at OKW at one point before we bought. The overall numbers stayed the same, but certain nights got more expensive (weekends, I believe) while weekdays got cheaper.

The numbers for OKW haven't changed in the 12 years I've owned there.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Really Bad Egg :Or perhaps they aren't going to speak for fear that they are going to get bashed by the zealots.

Oh puleeze....let's not go there with that sort of comment. If you are going to call us "zealots" for pointing out the positive aspects of DVC (and clarifying some misconceptions), then in the reverse, some of you could be considered just as zealot in your attempts to put DVC down for whatever reasons (some of them a bit far-fetched) you can.
I think alot of us DVC'ers can understand why some would choose deluxe resorts over DVC. You get concierge, housekeeping, two regular beds in a room (ie no sofa bed); have no interest in having a kitchen or cooking; on the monorail line etc. I can understand and respect all of this. It's just those misconceptions and untruths that periodically pop-up that alot of us DVC'er feel needs clarification. There are some people who will only stay in a deluxe and nothing less. They go regularily and would turn their noses up at a mod or a dvc resort. Are they "deluxe resort zealots" or deluxe resort snobs ? Some people would never consider staying offiste <insert gasp>. I've actually heard people say they'd rather not go to WDW if they can't stay onsite.
Respectfully, it just comes down to a preference in a way to vacation.

 

[a Really Bad Egg]

Oh puleeze....let's not go there with that sort of comment. If you are going to call us "zealots" for pointing out the positive aspects of DVC...

Uh...I own DVC...a bunch of points...maybe more than the average. I have my reasons for it, but it seems like a bore to lay those reasons out to the world. Who really cares? Ya know?

A zealot is a fanatically committed person. One could define some DVC members as fanatically committed to their timeshare program.

It's not a bad thing. But, they probably are wasting their time trying to sell DVC to someone who wouldn't even buy it from a DVC salesperson.

 

[bumbershoot]

I was hoping some people could help me see it different ways...for obvious reason I didn't post this on the DVC board. But honestly, my question goes to those who got to WDW every year, especially those who pay to stay in Deluxes, and have chosen not to buy DVC? I'm torn...i mean...it seems like a good deal...they say it pays for itself in about 7 vacations...i just don't see us ever have the $$$$ to pay for that big chunk, and DH would not want to finance it...so?? Just lookinf for some opinions on Disney experts! Thanks!

I haven't bought it b/c we don't have the free and clear money, don't want to finance, and haven't, er, been to WDW yet.

But we're quite sure we'll buy it, hopefully sooner rather than later.


And since your DH won't finance but you don't have the $$ available, sounds like this is all a moot question for you, as it would be for us to ask the question. Doesn't sound like it's really a choice, just like it isn't a choice for us right now. But once the money is there or someone decides to finance, it also sounds like you see the value in DVC, and once you guys go for it, there won't be a question!

 

[toocherie]

this may not be a good enough reason in anyone else's book, but for me having DVC will FORCE me to go on vacation-else I would feel like I was "wasting" points. Otherwise, it is too easy for work-aholic me to just say "next year"

 

[Goofy4]

this may not be a good enough reason in anyone else's book, but for me having DVC will FORCE me to go on vacation-else I would feel like I was "wasting" points. Otherwise, it is too easy for work-aholic me to just say "next year"

I've considered it for that reason.

 

[shelly3girls]

4. I always get AP's every year. As a regular renewal you get a $50 savings anyway.

5. Someties I like staying at other resorts/hotels in Orlando. The Gaylord Palms, Hilton, and Marriott are my favorites.

I believe DVC members get the DVC discount off the renewal price also. Someone please correct me if I am wrong b/c I don't really compare, I just buy it.

 

[mommytoone]

We considered joining, but the cost keeps us away. It is a bit pricey for us. We don't stay in Deluxe Resorts usually we are at the Value or Moderate.

Not to mention, I am cheap LOL

I feel the same way. I could never afford this. I can barely afford to go to Disney every other year. MY DH doesn't even come and we have to save for 2 years.

 

[Reginak]

I think that the annual pass discount is $100 off the first year and $88 of the renewal price.

Also, housekeeping for a studio runs $25/night; it's more for the bigger villas.

You can use your points for the Poly, the GF, the YC etc. but if you want to stay in the main parts of the WL, the BC or the BW you have to pay cash so if these places are important to you then I understan not buying.

Regina

 

[pilferk]

Would you pay your electric company $16,000 upfront for electricity?

Would you pay Macy's $16,000 upfront for clothes for the next few years?

Of course you wouldn't...because it makes no sense financially.

It is simply not a good investment to pay money upfront for vacation.

If you have that money upfront, then invest it intelligently. (Time shares, vacation, and new cars are NOT investments...they decrease in value.) Use the money you make on your investments to take vacations. I promise you'll come out ahead.

If you don't have that money upfront and pay in installments...well, what could that same amount of money do in a CD where it could grow? In a college fund? Saving interest charges by paying down other debt?

Wouldn't you want that money you're putting away each month to earn interest? I know there are plenty of people who pay for their vacations with credit cards and in installments...so they can probably justify DVC in their own minds...but those are emotional decisions, not financial ones.

I'm sure there are tons of emotional reasons to do DVC...otherwise it wouldn't sell. But financial reasons? Nope.

I'm a little late to the party, but wanted to point out a couple things based on the above post:

In fact, we (DW and I) did strongly consider opportunity cost for our money. Based on about an 8% rate of return vs paying out of pocket for our vacation every year, and taking that OUT of that invested money, our "break even point" was at about 8 or 9 years. Meaning, after 8 or 9 years, we were now down money beyond the initial investment + reinvestment of dues + interest earned. All, of course, not taking into account finance charges (because they weren't really a factor for us). For us, based on our vacation habits and family size (meaning we stay deluxe, ever year), I promise you that we would NOT have come out ahead investing. If we had to finance it (especialy long term)....I agree. The break even would have been pushed WAY out in the future, I think. Probably not worth it.

If you check out the mousesavers link posted eariler in this thread, there's a good spreadsheet to base off of and look at opportunity costs. I worked it 10 or 12 different ways, and DVC always came out ahead. It takes into account the rate at which dues have historically increased, and the rate at which hotel rooms have historically increased. You can vary buy in price, point total, AND your rate of return on the potential investment. Every scenario I worked out (including using discounts to travel...though you can't really count on those) worked to DVC's benefit. Ultimately , that's what made our decision for us.

Also, the assertion that timeshares lose money: I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they buy DVC in hopes that the price per point increased over what they pay when they buy. HOWEVER, having said that...if you look at the price per point NOW vs the price per point back in the early 90's.....it's hard to make the assertion that "all timeshares lose money" in relation to DVC.

I agree that DVC does have a strong emotional component to it. However, I think it's got a pretty strong financial one, too, depending on your vacation habits. Is it for everyone? No. But there is certainly value to be had in it by some.

 

[pilferk]

Actually, the increase of annual dues grows at a greater pace than the increase of hotel room prices. Check the DVC info on the mousesavers website; they have crunched all the numbers and it's right there in black and white!

The situation is not win-win from a financial perspective. Disney is laughing all the way to the bank on DVC. One last quote from the mousesavers article:

Some people just want to lock in an annual vacation at Disney with family and friends, regardless of whether it's a "good deal" or not. Ultimately many DVC members have joined because they found the membership emotionally satisfying -- and that's a hard thing to evaluate.

Actually, on the site in question (mousesavers) they say this:

"I think it's fair to guess that dues increases and resort rate increases may be roughly equivalent over time. I based my calculations below on that assumption. If you think resort rates will go up faster (and they might) than DVC dues increases, that will tend to make DVC membership look more attractive."

Keep in mind, they're talking % here. The dues rate starts lower, annually, than the annual cost for most of the room types (especially deluxe). So while the % increase is roughly equivalent, the hotel rate will increase more in overall $'s.

Again, download the spreadsheet at the site you're looking at and plunk in some numbers. You'll see good examples of what we're discussing here.

http://www.mousesavers.com/DVCvsCash.xls

 

[Ka-chow!]

And EACH YEAR, it gets to be an even better ratio, as rooms are skyrocketing in prices, but the DVC points needed for them are fixed.

Skyrocketing??? Ignoring the hyperbole, Mousesavers.com analysis clearly shows that the rate of inflation for both DVC and the resorts have been the same over the last decade. So another one of your claims isn't supported by the evidence.

Those numbers work for me.

Errr... your numbers have been all over the place, so I don't know what to say to that.

Again, they pay high gas prices in Europe, and did even when the dollar was quite strong. And despite high gas prices, Europeans still travel. SO WILL AMERICANS!

My immediate thought was the last statement sounds Pollyanna, but I think you being sincere, so I won't say that. Then I realized that your all caps is more of a Jingoism, i.e. an appeal to patriotism, which you have done a couple of times now. I love your logical fallacies!

So you again argued that Europeans are ignoring high gas prices. And again, you ignore that the current boom in European tourism all over the US is the product of the very strong Euro versus the dollar which easily off-sets their increased plane fares. Tourism in Europe has worsened because American tourism to the EU is way, way down, i.e. Americans ARE NOT traveling to Europe right now due to the weak dollar. http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-04-02-voa13.cfm

. Families will travel, just like they did when they had to climb in a covered wagon to do so.

So jodifla, one more point on your dismissal of my risk assessment of prohibitively high oil prices even though Disney shares my views (see Kevin Yee's article at MiceAge). Admittedly, there are many, many things that I don't know. But here are The 6 things that I do know about Jadifla's Covered Wagon Scenario:

1) I would never hitch up the team of oxen or mules to go to South Carolina to Orlando for Disneyworld tourism.
2) Even if I were so inclined to go to Orlando, my wife would not let 3 kids spend three weeks to get down there in your covered wagon.
3) I know that Americans, on the whole, would not follow your covered wagon leadership and go to Orlando.
4) I don't think you'd spend 2 months to Orlando and another 2 months to travel back to Michigan in your covered wagon. But I do know you wouldn't do it twice.
5) I know that if you and other Americans took your covered wagons down to Orlando as they do now, Orlando would soon be covered in draft animal excrement. Really, it would!
6) I know that since you argued (sincerely, I think) people will travel to Disney in your covered wagons in the numbers they do now, no evidence or logic could test your absolute faith in the resoluteness in corporate Disney or in DVC.

 

[drag n' fly]

I believe DVC members get the DVC discount off the renewal price also. Someone please correct me if I am wrong b/c I don't really compare, I just buy it.

It is 100.00 off an annual pass and 125.00 off a premium annual pass. I would never recommend buying DVC just for the perks. Any perk can be added or removed at any time. They are nice to have though