Why has society devalued engineering?

[MrsPete]

... re also paid and treated very well (my partner is one), so it's obvious that our society values engineering. By contrast, I'm a teacher and am paid and treated relatively poorly for what I do ...

My husband is -- well, was -- an engineer for 30 years, and, yes, he is -- was -- paid well, but he was not valued as a person. Yes, teachers are being treated more and more poorly -- that's why teachers are leaving in droves.
I think the world of work is a whole lot "less friendly" than it was when I started working 30 years ago. Loyalty in the workplace is gone, more is expected, and technology has made PART of that possible.
Off-topic: People who go into teaching and engineering definitely have "a personality", and those personalities go together. Almost half my co-workers are married to engineers.

It’s not engineering that’s devalued it’s cost cutting left right and center that leave projects completed on the cheap in less time than they should be constant pressure to cut corners from management

Agree.

Why? Because it's hard. (It's supposed to be.) But that means people would actually have to want to learn the things that make for a successful engineer. With the dumbing down of the American educational system and the demand for recognition and compensation for little or no effort, engineering is bound to suffer.

That's what my husband says. When he was in school 35 years ago, the people who graduated along with him were mostly American. Today he says the Americans start out as engineering students, but they change to easier majors -- it's the Japanese and Indian students who finish the program /earn engineering degrees. Our American school system HAS been "dumbed down", and we demand too little from all our students -- and especially of our brightest students. We give every kid a trophy. This is one of the results.

 

[tcufrog]

Exactly in my line of business (electrical utilities) generally speaking its the engineering and safety departments you want to pitch a new idea or product to first before ever mentioning it to the purchasing folks.

My husband is being approached by a much larger company to buy his company. He suspects they want not only my DH's intellectual property but also want my husband to take over their engineering department and fix it. My DH said that they would be in for a rude awakening because a lot of what they're designing is useless and doesn't meet the customer's needs.

My husband is -- well, was -- an engineer for 30 years, and, yes, he is -- was -- paid well, but he was not valued as a person. Yes, teachers are being treated more and more poorly -- that's why teachers are leaving in droves.
I think the world of work is a whole lot "less friendly" than it was when I started working 30 years ago. Loyalty in the workplace is gone, more is expected, and technology has made PART of that possible.
Off-topic: People who go into teaching and engineering definitely have "a personality", and those personalities go together. Almost half my co-workers are married to engineers.
Agree.
That's what my husband says. When he was in school 35 years ago, the people who graduated along with him were mostly American. Today he says the Americans start out as engineering students, but they change to easier majors -- it's the Japanese and Indian students who finish the program /earn engineering degrees. Our American school system HAS been "dumbed down", and we demand too little from all our students -- and especially of our brightest students. We give every kid a trophy. This is one of the results.

Even though my DH is Indian, he didn't grow up in India and came to the US for undergrad. The university we went to for undergrad had very few Indians from India at it. My DH didn't go to school with Indians who went through the Indian education system until he got his master's degree in engineering. I don't know if was the Indians at the graduate school he attended or a pervasive problem but he was very unimpressed with them. He discovered blatant cheating among them and learned that none of them knew how to give a presentation or do a group project. My DH had a lot of experience with both before he started working as an engineer. He told me many times that he would never hire any of them.

 

[Skippy918]

It’s not engineering that’s devalued it’s cost cutting left right and center that leave projects completed on the cheap in less time than they should be constant pressure to cut corners from management

most international major companies are run by bean counters who don’t see the value in a project well run they see numbera on a Balance sheet

Yup. If you take a look at historical incidents, engineers were the ones pointing out the flaws but the folks who control the purse strings are typically the ones who make the final decisions and then said incident happens and engineer says “I told you so”.

 

[Kennywood]

Unfortunately, when the experience and wisdom of engineers are ignored, tragedies like the space shuttle Challenger are the result.

 

[Travel60]

Engineering is a hard major (my DS, DSIL and many of their friends are engineers of one type or another and are all very well paid and well-treated. All were educated in private high schools and universities where expectations were high).

An education in engineering requires many courses in higher mathematics as well as critical thinking and communication skills. The US used to be a world leader in math but has fallen way down the rankings. Hence, many graduates of top engineering schools are foreign and some portion take their skills back home or don't have the right papers to work here. Hopefully the STEM initiatives will help but we have to up the standards from elementary school forward.

I used to teach in a public university. We had many students come in as engineering majors. The standing joke was after they flunked calculus they switched to information systems then finally to economics (where I taught). It was shocking how many couldn't work with simple percentages, graphs, etc.

 

[MillauFr]

With the dumbing down of the American educational system and the demand for recognition and compensation for little or no effort, engineering is bound to suffer.

Not sure where you live but in the Puget Sound most of high schools in Seattle and the wealthy suburbs have very high standards and many students take A.P. classes. You need a 3.75+ GPA and take mostly AP classes if you want to have any chance at all of getting into the University of Washington. The standards are way higher now than when I went to college 30 years ago. There are students getting 4.0 GPAs and getting rejected at the UW. I believe the University of California system (at least UC Berkley and UCLA) is the same way.

 

[wilbret]

It seems like every time I turn around society is having problems with engineering.

Our roads and bridges are falling apart and our power grids are failing. Even some parts of our space program are struggling.

Have we as an society stopped aspiring to build an amazing future? Have we become afraid of getting our hands dirty?

Remember the optimism of the 70s.

Did the Apollo Moon missions lead to this optimism?

Why have we stopped aspiring to build that amazing future?

Have we become afraid of getting our hands dirty? Has the educational system turned youth off of learning STEM?

Those examples all have a common denominator…gubment.

SpaceX built the worlds largest booster and a spaceship this past few weeks, mounted 35 engines in 2 days, and will stack them maybe tomorrow… may even be in space by end of the month.

Plenty of engineering excellence out there…

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

I think a lot of the past is seen through rose colored classes. I'm in the automotive space and our Engineering has improved drastically in that area. In the past, cars ran 100k miles if you were lucky, ran terribly when the weather changed, and leaked fluids everywhere. If you have a car that needs work before 100k miles today you think it's a lemon but that was the state of Engineering in the 70s.

Infrastructure in this country is a mess because we have an unsustainable system. We have spread out far too much and are not paying enough taxes to support what we have. The only way to sustain it is with more growth and the population has flattened... so it's not coming.

Not Just Bikes did a great collaboration with Strong Towns to explain why our current building style in the US is the root of our issues. These are the two most relevant parts of the series:

My son was born to be an engineer, he is hesitant because of the aggressive programs to go to school and the devaluation of the degree when you come out. He instead is looking at trade programs.

I'm not sure what this means. A BS in an Engineering field is one of the most valuable bachelor degrees to have.

 

[MillauFr]

I'm not sure what this means. A BS in an Engineering field is one of the most valuable bachelor degrees to have.

Agreed. You can make serious cash with an engineering degree.

 

[MrsPete]

Even though my DH is Indian, he didn't grow up in India and came to the US for undergrad.

Question is, how long ago did he graduate?
My husband graduated in the 80s, and at that point he says his fellow college students were 90% white Americans; when he started working, his fellow engineers were the same. He's recently retired, and he says that it slowly changed from around 2000-2010, and he blames it on the decline in the education system; As in high school math don't equate to being ready for a college engineering program. It's too bad that we Americans have let our standards slide.

learned that none of them knew how to give a presentation or do a group project.

Yes, engineers give presentations constantly, and they rarely work alone.

I'm not sure what this means. A BS in an Engineering field is one of the most valuable bachelor degrees to have.

Yes. Here's a typical engineering career: the degree is hard to earn, but you'll get a high-paying job right out of college. You'll work like a dog but will continue to be paid well throughout your career. Between 50-55, you'll be laid off because your employer can hire two new graduates for what they're paying you, BUT if you've been smart, it's okay because you're a math person and have been saving.

 

[HiStitch626]

Yes, engineers give presentations constantly, and they rarely work alone.

A friend works in HR at an engineering firm and has trouble hiring due to a lack of interpersonal skills in may of the job applicants. He has even had an applicant show up with his mother for an in-person interview. That one did not last long.

 

[MrsPete]

A friend works in HR at an engineering firm and has trouble hiring due to a lack of interpersonal skills in may of the job applicants. He has even had an applicant show up with his mother for an in-person interview. That one did not last long.

I believe that. Engineers have always been known for being better with numbers than with people, but in the almost three decades I've been teaching high school I've seen a BIG slip in "people skills". This isn't just an engineer thing.

Examples:
- One of my students was fired after failing to show up /not calling in for her shift at CVS. She thought it was very unfair because her mom wrote her a sick note.
- More and more kids don't self-advocate /don't ask questions -- they have their moms email. For example, a student who's been in my class 90 minutes won't ask me how to sign up for the SAT; rather, he will have his mom email and ask me the question.
- I've known a couple students who literally hide -- every day -- rather than go into the lunch room.
- Lots of kids stay on their phones throughout lunch rather than talking to the other kids who are literally sitting next to them.
- I don't just put kids into groups to complete an assignment in class -- they'll sit there and do nothing, even if they have instructions right in front of them. Instead, I give each group member a specific job (reader, recorder, time keeper -- it varies) and explain to them HOW I expect them to work together. If they aren't responsible for a specific thing, and it if isn't a grade, they won't do it.
- More and more kids have trouble with anxiety.

 

[_19disnA]

I don't see it as society devaluing Engineering, more that it is a challenging career field and not for everyone. Hard to generalize such things, but clearly some students are more suited for STEM subjects then others.

 

[MillauFr]

Not Just Bikes did a great collaboration with Strong Towns to explain why our current building style in the US is the root of our issues. These are the two most relevant parts of the series:

It depends on where you live. In the Puget Sound they really pack the houses together. Land is too expensive for big yards. They don't even build many of the houses with garages. I wonder where these people all park or maybe they only have one car?

2944 NE Davis Loop - Google Maps

The entire area is surrounded by mountains so it is hard to find a flat place to build.

 

[HiStitch626]

It depends on where you live. In the Puget Sound they really pack the houses together. Land is too expensive for big yards. They don't even build many of the houses with garages. I wonder where these people all park or maybe they only have one car?

2944 NE Davis Loop - Google Maps

The entire area is surrounded by mountains so it is hard to find a flat place to build.

Those homes have garages, many are just behind the houses. My brother lives in a neighborhood like that, where the houses are on small lots, and there is an alley behind the houses and that's where the garages are.

 

[MillauFr]

Those homes have garages, many are just behind the houses. My brother lives in a neighborhood like that, where the houses are on small lots, and there is an alley behind the houses and that's where the garages are.

If you look at the aerial they don't have an alley either.

 

[MillauFr]

If you look at the aerial they don't have an alley either.

Oops I was wrong they do.