Why Don't We Have More Refineries?

momof2inPA

<font color=6600FF>DIS Veteran<br><font color=FF33
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I know the popular sentiment is that environmentalists are to blame, but in reality, environmentalists have had no power since control of Congress and the Presidency was in the hands of the Republicans. We obviously should process more oil, so the price goes down, and our refineries are supposed to be operating at full capacity, so why not build more where we already have some? With fuel prices as they are, the populace would support it.

One of the problems is probably that it's more logistically practical to have them in Asia, where all the by-products are used to make plastic and crap for mainly U.S. consumption. If we increased refinery capacity here and had the by-products in the U.S., then we might "heaven forbid" use them to manufacture things in our own country.

If the oil companies aren't willing to build a refinery, the U.S. should build a few, run them, and provide cheaper fuel to compete with the Exxon/Mobil suits who are reaping the windfall profits off of our backs to build their McMansions and buy their yachts.
 
momof2inPA said:
I know the popular sentiment is that environmentalists are to blame, but in reality, environmentalists have had no power since control of Congress and the Presidency was in the hands of the Republicans.

Not sure that "environmentalists" are to blame, but the regulations that make it harder and more expensive to build refineries have not been changed or repealed by Congress or the President. If those regulations are too restrictive they:

1) Preceded the current government
2) The current government have not seen fit to change them, an argument against their supposed unfriendliness to the environment.
 
What an excellent idea - there hasn't been a new refinery built in the US in over 25 years and we need more refining capacity.

Where should it be built? It needs to be near a ready supply of raw products (crude oil) with excellent transportation. It needs to be near a port or pipeline to ship the finished products. A skilled workforce would be nice.

Oops - Not In My Back Yard. Unfortunately, NIMBY has been replaced by Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody (BANANA).

And remember the excuse of last resort: IT WILL BE A TERRORIST THREAT.

Forget the fact that a new refinery would cost $2-3 billion dollars to build.

It just ain't gonna happen.

Nice idea, but neither political party has the nerve to try and pull it off.
 
NJBlackBerry said:
What an excellent idea - there hasn't been a new refinery built in the US in over 25 years and we need more refining capacity.

Where should it be built? It needs to be near a ready supply of raw products (crude oil) with excellent transportation. It needs to be near a port or pipeline to ship the finished products. A skilled workforce would be nice.

Oops - Not In My Back Yard. Unfortunately, NIMBY has been replaced by Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody (BANANA).

A remember the excuse of last resort: IT WILL BE A TERRORIST THREAT.

Forget the fact that a new refinery would cost $2-3 billion dollars to build.

It just ain't gonna happen.

Nice idea, but neither political party has the nerve to try and pull it off.

Two to three billion is a drop in our debt bucket, and the time is right. It should be in the backyard of the current refineries. That's only practical. If they pulled off increased Alaskan drilling, this would be no problem. The Republicans are propping up oil prices for their buddies. That's why we have no more refineries.
 

I said it's a great idea. And it will not happen in my lifetime. And the Democrat party had 8 years of Clinton and did NOTHING with energy either. It's not politics - it's money. And neither "party" will change the status quo.
 
The Wall Street Journal has been writing about this for about 15 years.

Short answer - taxes and laws.
 
I would think it would be cheaper to reopen some of the many refineries that were closed during the overcapacity age during the 80s. Granted it would be expensive to refire the facility, plus bring it up to code-but 9 billion dollars profit per quarter could bring several refineries that are shut down back to life by Exxon. I really don't mind a business making that much money IF they are not trying to rake the consumer over the coals making it.

Clinton did nothing about the refining problem as the problem did not exist to the extent it is today. It is estimated that 1/4 of the cost of a barrel of oil right now is a "fear factor" due to Iran. Exxon, Shell, and others were not making multiple billions in profit per quarter during the Clinton years. Yes, something can be done, but nobody in power has the guts to do it.
 
momof2inPA said:
I know the popular sentiment is that environmentalists are to blame, but in reality, environmentalists have had no power since control of Congress and the Presidency was in the hands of the Republicans.

First, environmentalists have the power in the press, which is much more powerful than in politics.

Second, I thought GWB was all about giving perks to his "oil buddies"? Isn't that what the anti-GWB fanatics are always screaming about? If that *were* indeed the case, don't you think we'd have refineries everywhere? AND they'd be drilling in Alaska 6 years ago.

And one final thought about oil prices and the big, bad oil companies. Believe me, I'm no fan of oil companies, but they don't control the cost of oil. You know who does?

Oil is a openly traded commodity. SPECULATORS (investors) control the cost of oil. You know who that is? You and me! Check your 401k's, check your IRA's, check your mutual funds - chances are they're investing in the industry.

Now, ultimately, THEY (speculators/investors) are betting that the demand will outweigh the supply. So, there are two ways to lowering the price. (1) Build more refineries to increase supply, or (2) use less petroleum. Of the two, there is only one that we have any control over - that's using less petroleum. (you can also choose to avoid investing in any company, stock, mutual fund that invests/speculates in oil.)

Now, I'm a big-time open market conservative. As far as I'm concerned, if I can afford gas at $6.00 a gallon, and I'm willing to pay it, *I* should be able to drive what *I* want - even if it is a 6,000 lb 6 MPG Hummer. So, if you can afford it, and that's what you want, and you're willing to spend the money for gas... go for it. I'm not going to cast dispersions for your vehicle choice. Good for you.

But, I'm also cheaper than dirt. So, I'm making a conscience effort to drive less and while it never mattered before, MPG will have a MAJOR effect on my next car purchase. I also carpool when I can. (You're never going to get me on a bus or train, though, so don't even try.)

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
 
momof2inPA said:
Two to three billion is a drop in our debt bucket, and the time is right. It should be in the backyard of the current refineries. That's only practical. If they pulled off increased Alaskan drilling, this would be no problem. The Republicans are propping up oil prices for their buddies. That's why we have no more refineries.

Increased Alaskan drilling? When did we actually accomplish that? The Republicans have had control of all three branches for a while now, and that's still not a "done deal".

NJBlackBerry has nailed this one - BANANA politics is to blame. Ann Applebaum had an excellent column in the Washington Post recently:

Tilting at Windmills

By Anne Applebaum
Wednesday, April 19, 2006; Page A17

"Look there, friend Sancho Panza, where thirty or more monstrous giants rise up, all of whom I mean to engage in battle and slay, and with whose spoils we shall begin to make our fortunes."

-- from "Don Quixote" by Miguel de Cervantes

To my eye, they are lovely: Graceful, delicate, white against green grass and a blue sky. Last summer my children and I stopped specially to watch a group of them, wheels turning in the breeze.

But to those who dislike them, the modern wind turbine is worse than ugly. It is an aesthetic blight, a source of noise pollution, a murderer of birds and bats. As for the still-young wind industry, it is "an environmental plunderer, with its hirelings and parasites using a few truths and the politics of wishful thinking to frame a house of lies." Far from being clean and green, "corporate wind is yet another extraction industry relying on false promises," a "poster child for irresponsible development."

Such attacks -- those come from http://www.stopillwind.org/ , the Web site of Maryland anti-wind activist Jon Boone -- are not atypical. Similar language turns up on http://www.windwatch.org/ , on http://www.windstop.org/ , and on a dozen other anti-wind sites, most started by local groups opposed to a particular project. Their recent, rapid proliferation is not an accident: After languishing for years on the eco-fringe, wind energy has suddenly become mainstream. High oil prices, natural gas shortages, better technology, fear of global warming, state renewable-energy mandates and, yes, tax breaks have finally made wind farms commercially viable as well as clean. Traditional utility companies want to build them -- and thus the traditional environmental movement (which supports wind energy) has produced a handful of untraditional splinter groups that are trying to stop them.

They may succeed. Already, activists and real estate developers have stalled projects across Pennsylvania, West Virginia and New York. In Western Maryland, a proposal to build wind turbines alongside a coal mine, on a heavily logged mountaintop next to a transmission line, has just been nixed by state officials who called it too environmentally damaging. Along the coast of Nantucket, Mass. -- the only sufficiently shallow spot on the New England coast -- a coalition of anti-wind groups and summer homeowners, among them the Kennedy family, also seems set to block Cape Wind, a planned offshore wind farm. Their well-funded lobbying last month won them the attentions of Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), who, though normally an advocate of a state's right to its own resources, has made an exception for Massachusetts and helped pass an amendment designed to kill the project altogether.

The groups do have some arguments, ranging from the aesthetic -- if you are bothered by the sight of wind turbines on a mountaintop, which I am not (or, anyway, not when compared with the sight of a strip mine) -- to the economic. They are right to note that wind will not soon replace coal or gas, that wind isn't always as effective as supporters claim, and that some people are going to make a lot of money out of it (though some people make a lot of money out of coal, and indeed Nantucket summer homes as well).

But they also reflect a deeper American malady. The problem plaguing new energy developments is no longer NIMBYism, the "Not-In-My-Back-Yard" movement. The problem now, as one wind-power executive puts it, is BANANAism: "Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything." The anti-wind brigade, fierce though it is, pales beside the opposition to liquid natural gas terminals, and would fade entirely beside the mass movement that will oppose a new nuclear power plant. Indeed, the founders of Cape Wind say they embarked on the project in part because public antipathy prevents most other utility investments in New England.

Still, energy projects don't even have to be viable to spark opposition: Already, there are activists gearing up to fight the nascent biofuel industry, on the grounds that fields of switch grass or cornstalks needed to produce ethanol will replace rainforests and bucolic country landscapes. Soon the nonexistent "hydrogen economy" will doubtless be under attack as well. There's a lot of earnest, even bipartisan talk nowadays about the need for clean, emissions-free energy. But are we really ready, politically, to build any new energy sources at all?
 
I also heard that there are 2 types of crude oil and our refineries can only handle one kind. So, there is a bunch of this other stuff (heavy sour?) that we can't use because the refineries can't refine it to be used. Maybe we could spend some $$$$ to refine the other stuff.
 
Bush calls for more refineries

October 4, 2005: 1:17 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - President Bush called Tuesday for the construction of new refineries to help alleviate the recent record high gas prices.

Speaking at a press conference at the White House, Bush asked Congress to send a bill to his desk that allows refineries to expand and new refineries to be built.

"It ought to be clear to everybody that this country needs to build more refining capacity to be able to deal with the issues of tight supply," he said.
Easing the regulations on refinery construction has been part of Bush's energy plan for the last several months. He noted that a new refinery hasn't been built in the country since the 1970s.

Crude oil has reached record prices over the last several months, driven by soaring worldwide demand and a belief that easily extractable oil reserves are nearing or past their peak production years.

That has translated into higher prices for refined products such as gasoline and heating oil. Prices went higher yet following hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico that knocked out key oil refineries and stretched an already overburdened worldwide refinery system.



Hey I have one of these in my backyard, I pass it everynight on the way home from work..looks cool at night.

refinery.story.jpg



.
 
Instead of adjusting supply to demand the USA should adjust consumption to supply :rolleyes2
Here's a small, but obviously not very well known fact (at least to many people in the USA): The world's oil reserves are limited - the faster we use it up, the sooner it will be G-O-N-E.
 
Here's an idea... and the DIS is the perfect ground for this!

We need to lobby Disney to send a copy of the end part of "Ellen's Energy Adventure" to everyone in Congress. Show them that there are other alternatives out there and we should be exploring them. I would say bring them all down to EPCOT to see it, but frankly, I'd rather them stay the heck away from WDW.

My preference is towards Hydrogen. Plus, I really like those "skate cars" that run on Hydrogen they have in the Test Track pavillion.
 
I like the wind farm idea....but, Kennedy doesn't want it to mess up his view of Nantucket Sound. That is, afterall, what's REALLY important. :guilty:

They can put a wind thingie in my backyard, if they want. If they pay, say....half my property taxes every year. I'll even provide coffee to the workers who install it!
 
Viking said:
Instead of adjusting supply to demand the USA should adjust consumption to supply :rolleyes2
Here's a small, but obviously not very well known fact (at least to many people in the USA): The world's oil reserves are limited - the faster we use it up, the sooner it will be G-O-N-E.

That makes too much sense for most of us Americans, though. ;)
 
He noted that a new refinery hasn't been built in the country since the 1970s. - copied from charlienj

Let us review - the presidents in the 70's were:

69-74 - Nixon
74-77 - Ford
77-81 - Carter

In the 70's there were several items written into legislature that prevented the building of any new refineries. It also greatly restricted the refineries in updating and/or expanding their facilities. These restrictions were pushed by enviromentalist and passed by the representatives of both houses and signed into law by the one of or all three presidents noted above.

And today, no democrats don't want to let a republician make the changes and republicians don't want to let a democrat to make the changes.

LISTEN UP REPRESENTATIVES: WE ARE ALL AMERICANS, GET OVER WHAT POLITICAL SIDE YOU HAVE CHOOSEN TO REPRESENT. MAKE A DECISION FOR AMERICANS, NOT A PARTY LINE.
 
And gas prices were low during the Clinton administration-- and the Republicans controlled Congress. The oil companies don't want more refineries because they want to keep supply low, demand high. It's time to get past what THEY want. It's time to address what the PEOPLE need, and it's not $3.50 a gallon gas prices.

Yes, we should conserve, but that won't stop the gouging. The oil execs have tasted blood, and they won't stop until the government steps in. I'm sure this won't happen anytime soon.
 
bsnyder said:
Increased Alaskan drilling? When did we actually accomplish that? The Republicans have had control of all three branches for a while now, and that's still not a "done deal".

Congress is banking on $7 billion in ANWR leases over the next five years. Where have you been?
 
momof2inPA said:
Congress is banking on $7 billion in ANWR leases over the next five years. Where have you been?

Some may have been counting on it but it was crushed.
 


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