Why do we want the best test scores?

[disykat]

My son is an honor student as are most of his friends. The content of their AP and IB courses is the same as my regular classes when I was in high school. We have dumbed down the basic education of our children to a point of absurdity. Parents crying about having to help their children with homework. Students sleeping in class. My son's friends report teachers knowingly allowing students to copy each other's papers in class so the kids, at least, turn something in. Everyone has gotten lazy, very lazy. The idea that we are trying to achieve 'the best' is humorous. I believe that we are simply attempting to stop the downhill spiral. When I graduated from high school, I had Algebra 2, Chemistry, Biology, 4 years of French and 2 of Latin, 4 years of English,Psychology, Government, Economics, typing, Geography and lots of art, music and drama classes. That was 1971 and all the kids in my freshman year of college had the same stuff.
Why can't we at least achieve the standards of 1971?
Why all the bellyaching? The kids can handle it. We did.

I suppose this varies regionally and by school, but my kids AP classes are definitely what I did in college. My kids have done WAAY more in high school than I ever did! The highest math available to me was pre-calc. In my kid's school we have kids taking calculus in 10th grade and they've had to work to provided appropriate coursework beyond that. I remember a few of the really smart kids taking physics, in my kid's school most kids have some and the really smart kids have two or three years of it.

What I notice at our school is the divide. High kids go AP all the way taking their PE and health credits in the summer so they can fit it all in, normal kids often end up doing dual enrollment at the community college because it's easier, lower kids do nothing but throw the curve because we ignore their needs.

My oldest went to college as a junior due to all his AP and jumped right into his electrical engineering and computer science majors. How much more rigorous can it get? I think it's verging on ridiculous now.

 

[Coconut36]

My son is an honor student as are most of his friends. The content of their AP and IB courses is the same as my regular classes when I was in high school. We have dumbed down the basic education of our children to a point of absurdity. Parents crying about having to help their children with homework. Students sleeping in class. My son's friends report teachers knowingly allowing students to copy each other's papers in class so the kids, at least, turn something in. Everyone has gotten lazy, very lazy. The idea that we are trying to achieve 'the best' is humorous. I believe that we are simply attempting to stop the downhill spiral. When I graduated from high school, I had Algebra 2, Chemistry, Biology, 4 years of French and 2 of Latin, 4 years of English,Psychology, Government, Economics, typing, Geography and lots of art, music and drama classes. That was 1971 and all the kids in my freshman year of college had the same stuff.
Why can't we at least achieve the standards of 1971?
Why all the bellyaching? The kids can handle it. We did.

If your schools AP and IB classes are on par with basic classes of your day then you need to take that up with the school. That is not normal or appropriate for AP/IB classes. I know someone who teaches IB courses (and my kids school starts IB in 7th grade) and it is NOT the same as school in my day and it is far above what an "average" student is working on.

We are not dumbing things down..in fact we are pushing things sooner and faster than we ever used to..we are having kids do things we never did in the 80s as students. We are actually pushing them beyond what is developmentally appropriate for their ages so if your school isn't doing that then they are out of sync with what is happening in schools right now. In my Mom's 30 years she could point out the damage and the burn out and the anxiety and the stress that has come with this push, push push, test test test mentality. The lack of creative thinking and logic skills that has resulted from it as well.

Due to lack of funding in education many things are cut..PE, art, music (one district here is being told that if their override doesn't pass they will lose PE, art, music. They also have 29-30 kids minimum per Kinder class and cut positions and increased this from class sizes of 24 or less).

If we want to go back to the way things were when kids were learning we have to stop all this "test test test" mentality, we have to take the time to lay a proper foundation in them from the start rather than pushing on to the next concept before they have completely grasped the one prior. Things actually went slower "back then" than they do now, the teachers had the ability to truly teach concepts to kids in their own way at their own pace..now they are all being made to teach out of the same mold, they are not allowed to linger on a concept even if they know the majority of kids didn't get it the first time and so on.

 

[PrincessKsMom]

My son is an honor student as are most of his friends. The content of their AP and IB courses is the same as my regular classes when I was in high school. We have dumbed down the basic education of our children to a point of absurdity. Parents crying about having to help their children with homework. Students sleeping in class. My son's friends report teachers knowingly allowing students to copy each other's papers in class so the kids, at least, turn something in. Everyone has gotten lazy, very lazy. The idea that we are trying to achieve 'the best' is humorous. I believe that we are simply attempting to stop the downhill spiral. When I graduated from high school, I had Algebra 2, Chemistry, Biology, 4 years of French and 2 of Latin, 4 years of English,Psychology, Government, Economics, typing, Geography and lots of art, music and drama classes. That was 1971 and all the kids in my freshman year of college had the same stuff.
Why can't we at least achieve the standards of 1971?
Why all the bellyaching? The kids can handle it. We did.

Don't know where you went to school but I can't imagine there are even enough periods in the day to cover all of this. At my high school (where my daughter is now), it depends on your classes. She is in Honors/AP and has been taking an extra period a day just to get in all of her requirements. This year is the first year she took the extra period voluntarily just to get in one class she wanted.

Each year she's had: Gym, Cafe, English, History, Math, Science (freshman and sophomore years either math or science was a double period), a business course (mandatory one year - freshman year for her) or an art class (mandatory - sophomore year for her) and Spanish. That's eight periods a day with a zero period gym class.

This year her schedule is somewhat different because she dropped out of honors math and science so she's in A level classes: Gym, Cafe, AP English/History, Math, Science, College Writing/Financial Literacy (mandatory financial literacy for junior year half year course--she choose to take college writing for the other half of the year), Photography (her one class he wanted to take), Spanish Honors.

In our school Cafe and Gym are mandatory. The only way out of Cafe is one period a week for a lab for science. And she's still voluntarily taking gym during zero period so she can take the photography class.

I should add that if you're not in the Honors/AP track there are more periods a day available, but many of the classes you mentioned probably also wouldn't be made available to you either.

 

[LisaR]

I'm one that feels we need to do better in math and science and English, as well.

What are the alternatives? Settle or 14th place? Strive to do worse? Shouldn't one always strive to be better? Maybe we won't ever end up at the top but I would certainly hope we never give up trying to improve.

Having said that, I do not think teaching to the test is the way to go about it, and that obviously isn't working anyway.

The 13 countries above us aren't teaching to the test. I am always perplexed as to why this is the method we have adopted when it doesn't work.

I don't think everyone is meant to get a higher education, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't learn the core subjects to the best of their given ability. The fact that so many are entering college and still require remedial math and English courses says so much about our current system.

 

[Coconut36]

I'm one that feels we need to do better in math and science and English, as well.

What are the alternatives? Settle or 14th place? Strive to do worse? Shouldn't one always strive to be better? Maybe we won't ever end up at the top but I would certainly hope we never give up trying to improve.

Having said that, I do not think teaching to the test is the way to go about it, and that obviously isn't working anyway.

The 13 countries above us aren't teaching to the test. I am always perplexed as to why this is the method we have adopted when it doesn't work.

I don't think everyone is meant to get a higher education, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't learn the core subjects to the best of their given ability. The fact that so many are entering college and still require remedial math and English courses says so much about our current system.

The bold really gets me..I think most teachers are well aware this isn't the way to go and it is failing miserably but they are bound by the requirements of the Fed/state and their district to do it anyway. When are people going to wake up and realize that things have just gone painfully downhill due to teaching to the test, that we are not achieving anything and if anything the kids are doing worse and stop this nonsense?

 

[mhsjax]

My son is an honor student as are most of his friends. The content of their AP and IB courses is the same as my regular classes when I was in high school. We have dumbed down the basic education of our children to a point of absurdity. Parents crying about having to help their children with homework. Students sleeping in class. My son's friends report teachers knowingly allowing students to copy each other's papers in class so the kids, at least, turn something in. Everyone has gotten lazy, very lazy. The idea that we are trying to achieve 'the best' is humorous. I believe that we are simply attempting to stop the downhill spiral. When I graduated from high school, I had Algebra 2, Chemistry, Biology, 4 years of French and 2 of Latin, 4 years of English,Psychology, Government, Economics, typing, Geography and lots of art, music and drama classes. That was 1971 and all the kids in my freshman year of college had the same stuff.
Why can't we at least achieve the standards of 1971?
Why all the bellyaching? The kids can handle it. We did.

Sounds like a problem with your school. My son is a sophomore and has already had Biology honors, is working on chemistry honors and Algebra 2 honors, has AP World History, 2nd year of spanish. 2nd year of AP language arts. I see the kids in our area doing way more than we ever did in advanced classes. I think maybe your area is dumbing it down, at least compared to other areas.

 

[NY Disney fan]

NYDisneyFan: You mention that you bet your dd is #1 in her class. Why does it matter? With weekend and summer classes, does she also have time for a social life? Does she have time to take part in sports or music lessons or maybe dance? Don't you worry that she may burn out with all of this school work? What is your hope for the end result?

I am not putting down your choices, I am just curious as to why you have made the decision to do this.

My intention, at first, was not for her to be #1. I wanted to follow a more Chinese model of educating her and I started when she was young. So I sent her to a Chinese learning center. Over time she just happened to be #1 by accident or because she was getting so much instruction. But also, over time, I didn't see the point. She was so ahead that it wasn't worth it. My daughter does do extra curricular. She competes in karate and plays piano. She also goes to religion classes to make her communion. So she is also overscheduled. Like I mentioned before, I'm stuck in a dilemma because I like the outcome but I don't want to burden her. My daughter is not even the one burdened, it is Me! I'm exhausted over her schedule. So changes are a comin'.

 

[shortbun]

If your schools AP and IB classes are on par with basic classes of your day then you need to take that up with the school. That is not normal or appropriate for AP/IB classes. I know someone who teaches IB courses (and my kids school starts IB in 7th grade) and it is NOT the same as school in my day and it is far above what an "average" student is working on.

We are not dumbing things down..in fact we are pushing things sooner and faster than we ever used to..we are having kids do things we never did in the 80s as students. We are actually pushing them beyond what is developmentally appropriate for their ages so if your school isn't doing that then they are out of sync with what is happening in schools right now. In my Mom's 30 years she could point out the damage and the burn out and the anxiety and the stress that has come with this push, push push, test test test mentality. The lack of creative thinking and logic skills that has resulted from it as well.

Due to lack of funding in education many things are cut..PE, art, music (one district here is being told that if their override doesn't pass they will lose PE, art, music. They also have 29-30 kids minimum per Kinder class and cut positions and increased this from class sizes of 24 or less).

If we want to go back to the way things were when kids were learning we have to stop all this "test test test" mentality, we have to take the time to lay a proper foundation in them from the start rather than pushing on to the next concept before they have completely grasped the one prior. Things actually went slower "back then" than they do now, the teachers had the ability to truly teach concepts to kids in their own way at their own pace..now they are all being made to teach out of the same mold, they are not allowed to linger on a concept even if they know the majority of kids didn't get it the first time and so on.

I guess you don't know what education was like in "my day." Kids in our current schools' AP and IB classes are routinely getting ACT scores over 30 and SAT over 2000, so the classes are just fine. And, since my son is enrolled and taking them, I know what the content is and it is just like mine was in the late 60's and 70's right down to the literature, plays, math, science(although we had real labs in all Bio and Chem while only the AP and IB classes have them now). Also, there was no Trig, just Calculus when I was in school, but the Calculus was laced with a little Trig. There were more basic math classes and general English classes for students who weren't planning on college. Those of us who were or just wanted to take interesting classes, took Shakespeare, Olde English, Poetry as Engllish classes rather than boring things like American Literature-Ben Franklin's writings are not near as interesting as Midsummer Night's Dream, or Beowulf and Canterbury Tales to most students. Some like Franklin but it's pretty dry and weird. Those are classes taught in college now. I was not in school in the 80's but it seems that from your anecdotal information, that(the 80's) must be when the dumbing down happened. In the early 70's, our standards were still high and children were expected to handle it. Of course, we didn't also have 7 extra cirricular activities going on causing our free/study time to disappear. Students did one or two outside activities and church on Sunday. We had time to study, hang with our friends, actually take walks and relax. There were not video games, no cable TV, no oxy, few girls were raising children and attending high school. I don't think the stress you speak of comes from academics pushed too much too soon. I think it comes from the social ills we have not figured out how to deal with successfully as a society. The academics were just as they are for honor students then as they are now. I am speaking of what's going on here.

 

[luvmy3]

I think the US should strive to be the best in math & science. Why? Because those are things which will propel our next generation to do great things. We don't want to be best known as the Kardashian Kapital, or be known for our plethora of idiotic reality shows or the gaffes of our political candidates. Not all TV shows are bad...there are great shows out there, but they don't have as much mainstream support as Honey Boo Boo does. Nor do they bring in the ratings / money that some of the more vapid shows do.

The US is the greatest country in the world, offering a ton of opportunities for those people who value innovation, vision, intelligence and integrity. We need to encourage that in our young people and in our adults as well. If we, as US citizens, don't have the skills needed in a new age of technology and science, we are handing over our future to other countries. We are already witnessing this by the fact that so many of our jobs are outsourced and there are tons of high-technology jobs which are not being filled (or we're importing those people from other countries).

Being known in a global community as one of the smartest, cleverest and innovative societies will yield greater opportunities for all of us in the future. We need to make math, science, reading, and critical thinking "cool" again and encourage our young people to take an interest in the arts as well. Our rockstars need to be people who contribute to society in all fields, and we need to stop idolizing those people who teach our kids that it's ok to be violent, or hurtful, or rude. We need to start idolizing traits in people that have been made "dorky" over the past 30 years, like helping the poor, volunteering, being smart, using one's artistic talent, thinking critically, asking questions. You don't have to be a genius to do any of this...just someone who refuses to be a selfish twit at the expense of others.

The US has to rekindle its pioneering and adventuring spirit - to want to reach beyond the boundaries of our own planet and explore the cosmos. This adventuring spirit was so evident even 50 years ago and prompted great advances in aerospace and science. Now, we don't even have a space shuttle program anymore.

Ultimately, a focus on math & science will propel our young people to question and think, to put emphasis on the things that will help them in the long run. To stop having our kids glued to the TV watching shows that turn their brain into mush and become "sheeple" to whatever fad is popular that day. To even start thinking about their communities, families and world as an extension of themselves.

Sorry for the length...bit of a hot button for me.

PS - Disclosure: I am an IT Professional with a degree in the sciences, and I am a mentor to several young careerpeople at my Firm. I think math/science/technology is vital to the further prosperity of our country.

 

[Coconut36]

I guess you don't know what education was like in "my day." Kids in our current schools' AP and IB classes are routinely getting ACT scores over 30 and SAT over 2000, so the classes are just fine. And, since my son is enrolled and taking them, I know what the content is and it is just like mine was in the late 60's and 70's right down to the literature, plays, math, science(although we had real labs in all Bio and Chem while only the AP and IB classes have them now). Also, there was no Trig, just Calculus when I was in school, but the Calculus was laced with a little Trig. There were more basic math classes and general English classes for students who weren't planning on college. Those of us who were or just wanted to take interesting classes, took Shakespeare, Olde English, Poetry as Engllish classes rather than boring things like American Literature-Ben Franklin's writings are not near as interesting as Midsummer Night's Dream, or Beowulf and Canterbury Tales to most students. Some like Franklin but it's pretty dry and weird. Those are classes taught in college now. I was not in school in the 80's but it seems that from your anecdotal information, that(the 80's) must be when the dumbing down happened. In the early 70's, our standards were still high and children were expected to handle it. Of course, we didn't also have 7 extra cirricular activities going on causing our free/study time to disappear. Students did one or two outside activities and church on Sunday. We had time to study, hang with our friends, actually take walks and relax. There were not video games, no cable TV, no oxy, few girls were raising children and attending high school. I don't think the stress you speak of comes from academics pushed too much too soon. I think it comes from the social ills we have not figured out how to deal with successfully as a society. The academics were just as they are for honor students then as they are now. I am speaking of what's going on here.

My parents graduated in '69 and '74 and one of them spent 30 years in education and has the ability to compare "then" and now likely far better than you can. That parent will say that what is going on now is bad, is pushing children beyond what is developmentally appropriate, is causing burn out and anxiety in very young children. That it is NOT being "dumped down" at all. I think people often have this misguided ideal of what school was like when they were a kid and think it was all perfect sunshine and roses and was "perfect". Don't get me wrong..there are huge failures in what is going on now but most of it stems from pushing kids beyond what is appropriate and now allowing teachers to truly teach..the problems are not related to kids not doing "enough" or failing to be "pushed" to achieve..quite the opposite actually. We are so set on pushing them on to the next concept or the higher level we are not allowing the appropriate amount of time for them to build the foundation they need to succeed at those high levels so the kids just flounder.

As for your comments about where you are..you are the one stating that AP and IB courses were just like the basic courses you took..if that is the case then there is indeed a problem where your child is being educated as that is not the norm or appropriate for AP and IB courses. You can throw around scores and such but you are the one stating the courses your kid is taking or are given at your school are "dumbed down" and I think many of us are stating if that is the case there is a failure at your child's school as that is not the norm.

 

[kamik86]

I suppose this varies regionally and by school, but my kids AP classes are definitely what I did in college. My kids have done WAAY more in high school than I ever did! The highest math available to me was pre-calc. In my kid's school we have kids taking calculus in 10th grade and they've had to work to provided appropriate coursework beyond that. I remember a few of the really smart kids taking physics, in my kid's school most kids have some and the really smart kids have two or three years of it.

What I notice at our school is the divide. High kids go AP all the way taking their PE and health credits in the summer so they can fit it all in, normal kids often end up doing dual enrollment at the community college because it's easier, lower kids do nothing but throw the curve because we ignore their needs.

My oldest went to college as a junior due to all his AP and jumped right into his electrical engineering and computer science majors. How much more rigorous can it get? I think it's verging on ridiculous now.

See this is one of the big issues. The divide between schools. Either we need to let all parents choose where their kids go to school or make the schools more adaptable somehow to all kids.

My school had no APs. Trig was the highest level of math offered. No pre-calc, no foreign languages, etc. I was bored out of my mind. A school like what your children attend would be great. Dual enrollment was difficult in our school because of the shop classes (one week shop one week normal) shop was the only good thing about my school but it made it so you couldn't do a dual enrollment. Oh yeah and our local community college was just as much of a joke.

Maybe what the other countries have right is the tracks are not all in one school. They do have academic schools and schools for those that don't plan to go to college. Then the schools could be more specialized and really be able to meet the needs of the students that attend there. Of course we would have to get over the PC everyone is the same stuff to be willing to separate kids based on ability.

 

[disykat]

I too am confused by shortbun's "the schools are dumbing down," "the classes are fine" stance.

However, at some point I agree with both. My experience with kids in honors/AP classes is that they expect WAAY more than I did in the 70's. I do think though, that the at risk population is getting larger and they are getting less instruction. That's my whole "deal with the bottom of the range to avoid dragging down your average rather than just trying to increase the top end" point.

As other's have mentioned, contrary to many of the other countries, we expect all our kids to be college ready and test accordingly. If going by SAT/ACT, many more students self-select as college bound and take the tests. We have a lower drop out rate as the expectation now is that everyone will have a high school diploma. Lots of things factor in, but it doesn't excuse us from not meeting the foundational basic educational needs of a large portion of our population.

 

[shortbun]

My parents graduated in '69 and '74 and one of them spent 30 years in education and has the ability to compare "then" and now likely far better than you can. That parent will say that what is going on now is bad, is pushing children beyond what is developmentally appropriate, is causing burn out and anxiety in very young children. That it is NOT being "dumped down" at all. I think people often have this misguided ideal of what school was like when they were a kid and think it was all perfect sunshine and roses and was "perfect". Don't get me wrong..there are huge failures in what is going on now but most of it stems from pushing kids beyond what is appropriate and now allowing teachers to truly teach..the problems are not related to kids not doing "enough" or failing to be "pushed" to achieve..quite the opposite actually. We are so set on pushing them on to the next concept or the higher level we are not allowing the appropriate amount of time for them to build the foundation they need to succeed at those high levels so the kids just flounder.

As for your comments about where you are..you are the one stating that AP and IB courses were just like the basic courses you took..if that is the case then there is indeed a problem where your child is being educated as that is not the norm or appropriate for AP and IB courses. You can throw around scores and such but you are the one stating the courses your kid is taking or are given at your school are "dumbed down" and I think many of us are stating if that is the case there is a failure at your child's school as that is not the norm.

To equal my regular cirriculum from the early 70's, a student today must take AP or IB. The rest of the students have had their academics thoroghly dumbed down from what regular school used to be. That is why WE, here in the United States, see our comparisons to students in other countries looking so bad. Many students are graduating high school unable to read and comprehend. I'm sorry if my writing skills are not good enough to communicate clearly. My son is in those AP courses so he's fine but to me, AP should mean advanced and they don't seem advanced to me. Because their test scores seem to be on par with the rest of the US students going to college, why am I worried? Guess I'm sad for the rest of the students who aren't getting what used to be a basic education.
Too bad you can't read my posts and try to understand them instead of pushing your agenda.
I'm headed over to the Young and the Restless thread to see if they can tell me when exactly Sharon and Tucker got married. As for arguing with you...A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Fruitless.

 

[MrsPete]

I agree with those who say that test scores shouldn't be the goal. Rather, the goal should be to ignite curiosity and interest in math and sciences so that more of our best students should feel compelled to throw themselves into careers in these fields.

Why does this matter so much? Well, if we want to continue to be world leaders in technology, science of all types, medical research, space exploration and other math-science oriented fields, we need to encourage students in this direction. After all, we all do want a cure to cancer, don't we? We do want a car that'll run on water, don't we?

It's wrong to say that "We need to work harder in math and science!" means "Forget about English, history and the arts." But fewer and fewer of our students are entering math and science-oriented fields, and without a greater emphasis, the US is going to be in trouble in another decade or so. To give a concrete example, my husband is a research engineer. He says that they are not finding quality just-out-of-school American engineers these days -- but they can hire them by the droves from India. What does that say about our country? Aren't we capable of training our young people in difficult mathematics?

However, I do think that we've fallen prey to the idea of "stupid kid tricks" (play on words from the Dave Letterman show, not saying that our kids are stupid). By that, I mean that if we can push-push-push kids to do algebra two years earlier than they did a decade ago, we're doing better! By that, I mean that if a kid can read the words to Romeo & Juliet, we're doing better! Not really. We need to teach these concepts when kids are developmentally ready for them -- not at the first possible moment.

And, there's the matter of money. We are spending more money on education than most other countries -- shouldn't we expect better results? Of course, the other side of that coin is that we're educating everyone (and, like it or not, educating a special ed student costs more than educating the class valedictorian). It would be cheaper if we took the route that some countries do and educated only the cream of the crop -- but that would be very un-American, no matter how it looks in statistics.

 

[Coconut36]

Too bad you can't read my posts and try to understand them instead of pushing your agenda.
I'm headed over to the Young and the Restless thread to see if they can tell me when exactly Sharon and Tucker got married. As for arguing with you...A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Fruitless.

My agenda? No need to be so nasty just because someone doesn't agree with you.

 

[PollyannaMom]

...However, I do think that we've fallen prey to the idea of "stupid kid tricks" (play on words from the Dave Letterman show, not saying that our kids are stupid). By that, I mean that if we can push-push-push kids to do algebra two years earlier than they did a decade ago, we're doing better! By that, I mean that if a kid can read the words to Romeo & Juliet, we're doing better! Not really. We need to teach these concepts when kids are developmentally ready for them -- not at the first possible moment...

SO true!

 

[shortbun]

I agree with those who say that test scores shouldn't be the goal. Rather, the goal should be to ignite curiosity and interest in math and sciences so that more of our best students should feel compelled to throw themselves into careers in these fields.

Why does this matter so much? Well, if we want to continue to be world leaders in technology, science of all types, medical research, space exploration and other math-science oriented fields, we need to encourage students in this direction. After all, we all do want a cure to cancer, don't we? We do want a car that'll run on water, don't we?

It's wrong to say that "We need to work harder in math and science!" means "Forget about English, history and the arts." But fewer and fewer of our students are entering math and science-oriented fields, and without a greater emphasis, the US is going to be in trouble in another decade or so. To give a concrete example, my husband is a research engineer. He says that they are not finding quality just-out-of-school American engineers these days -- but they can hire them by the droves from India. What does that say about our country? Aren't we capable of training our young people in difficult mathematics?

However, I do think that we've fallen prey to the idea of "stupid kid tricks" (play on words from the Dave Letterman show, not saying that our kids are stupid). By that, I mean that if we can push-push-push kids to do algebra two years earlier than they did a decade ago, we're doing better! By that, I mean that if a kid can read the words to Romeo & Juliet, we're doing better! Not really. We need to teach these concepts when kids are developmentally ready for them -- not at the first possible moment.

And, there's the matter of money. We are spending more money on education than most other countries -- shouldn't we expect better results? Of course, the other side of that coin is that we're educating everyone (and, like it or not, educating a special ed student costs more than educating the class valedictorian). It would be cheaper if we took the route that some countries do and educated only the cream of the crop -- but that would be very un-American, no matter how it looks in statistics.

I like your post. There's always a BUT,right? It's the last paragraph that disturbed me a bit. The state of Ohio spends less than $5000 per pupil per year on students-that's overall costs including utilities and extras. Tuition at any decent private school -not subsidised by a church(another thread)-is way more than that. Do you have actual stats on 'we are spending more money on education that most other countries' and usually, the class valedictorian educates themselves, because they can, so little funds are necessary. Truly, if valedictorian quality students were just given the cirriculum on line and told to meet the standards by doing whatever projects, papers, art projects, video presentations they preferred...their education would not lack much. Then teachers could really focus on the students who need help.

 

[NHdisneylover]

This is a great discussion! Thanks to everyone for participating.

I ended up googling things and coming across many excellent and intriguing (to me) articles about Finland. Oh how I would love to teach there! and how i would have loved for my kids to spend their school careers there.

I like your post. There's always a BUT,right? It's the last paragraph that disturbed me a bit. The state of Ohio spends less than $5000 per pupil per year on students-that's overall costs including utilities and extras. Tuition at any decent private school -not subsidised by a church(another thread)-is way more than that. Do you have actual stats on 'we are spending more money on education that most other countries' and usually, the class valedictorian educates themselves, because they can, so little funds are necessary. Truly, if valedictorian quality students were just given the cirriculum on line and told to meet the standards by doing whatever projects, papers, art projects, video presentations they preferred...their education would not lack much. Then teachers could really focus on the students who need help.

The US does spend more per student than just about anyone else.

Here are a few links to that info:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_sec_sch_stu-spending-per-secondary-school-student

http://www.supportingevidence.com/Education/PISA_Test_scores_vs_cum_edu_spend_by_country.html

 

[disykat]

If memory serves me right, doesn't Finland start late - pretty much disproving the whole do everything earlier push the US is in? (though my child development class in college did that too - I don't know what people are thinking!

I like mrs. pete's wording - "exite and ignite" rather than pushing and insisting kids should "know" something they're not ready to learn.

 

[NHdisneylover]

If memory serves me right, doesn't Finland start late - pretty much disproving the whole do everything earlier push the US is in? (though my child development class in college did that too - I don't know what people are thinking!

I like mrs. pete's wording - "exite and ignite" rather than pushing and insisting kids should "know" something they're not ready to learn.

Finland has (free for everybody) preschool, but does not do academics there--only social skills and building self reliance.

They do not start teaching reading until age 7.

They have fewer hours of school per year than just about anyone (averaging at 770 in highschool ages) and no more than half an hour of homework TOTAL per night.

Teachers are given VERY little in the way of requirements and can choose their own text and own manner of teaching.

Most school do not use grades at all in the early years and there is no nationwide testing (random samplings here and there and the PISA are it).

It is so totally and completely NOT what we do--and I am more and more blown away by it all the more I read today