Where's the logic in longer FP+ wait times?

[DPCummerbund]

Okay, I haven't read through all the threads on the epic problems of FP+, but I have read a bunch, and I still don't understand the problem.

FP+ doesn't - in fact CANNOT - make lines longer overall for everyone. There are only two things that can do that:
1) Reduced ride capacity, and
2) Increased crowds.

If the rides are collectively longer than they were, say, a year ago, then either of these things may be happening IN CONJUNCTION with FP+, but you can't really blame FP+ for that.

There are several reports of longer waits at "secondary" attractions (like the big thread about HM and Pirates). I can see how longer waits at formerly "walkon" attractions could happen: if everybody has a FP for a "headliner" attraction, then they don't need to wait in a 2 hour standby. So, all those people who use to clog up the headliner standby lines are now in standby for the second tier rides. There's a flip side for this: the standby line at the headliner attraction is now much shorter. So, you may not be able to walk on to Pirates, but you can now go ride Space Mountain with a much shorter standby line.

As Newton's Third Law states, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If crowds are the same and the ride capacity is the same, then a longer line at one attraction means that there's a shorter line at some other attraction.

I'm not looking to start an argument or yet another thread where people post their own ride experiences - after all, experience is subjective. You can swear up and down that your waits were longer, and that may very well be true, but then the wait MUST have been shorter for somebody else - it just unfortunately wasn't you. I'd just like to find out how, logically, FP+ could possibly be making things as bad as everyone says.

Can anyone explain it to me?

 

[Shaden]

Seriously, there are two threads dedicated to this already.

Its been explained. There is no real increase in crowds, and yet wait times are considerably up. It is FP+, most likely, and there are several good reasons for it.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3255608

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3246982

Enjoy

 

[Bluegrrl]

Logic doesn't apply at Disney - it simply doesn't' Perception is reality and in many people's reality, FP+ just doesn't work. Personally (YMMV) is this:

1. People don't like being shacked to the limit or 3 per person and to the tiering.
2. Rides that have historically NEVER needed FPs now have FP and thus created longer lines and false needs for FP.
3. Lack of park hopping for people who have bought hoppers, problems with military tickets (yeah, lets screw the vets) and ap holders/locals.
4.. There is nothing more aggravating than seeing an empty FP line in rides like the above with huge sb lines. It makes me (and I imagine others) furious. Having sb lines like these is ridiculous. I just want to scream.
5. Cast members who are not trained with the system creating more havoc than solving the issue.
6. Faulty equipment, horrible IT service and being stuck to a website that doesn't work with no recourse or way to solve it.
7. Having to miss a FP+ window due to a slow waiter, long lines, traffic, etc.
8. AP and locals having to plan their trips vs being able to run down to the parks to have a "quickie" visit.
9. Worse problem: being stuck to your cellphone with a faulty app trying to change missed FP times vs spending actual REAL time with your family and having a truly MAGICAL visit.

Perception is reality, and my real life experience with this app has not been good at all. I know that there are FP+ apologists out there, but, whatever. FP+ broke a system that was never broken. I think we may all have Great Wolf park to blame here.
But, again, there is no logic at Disney, and people are experiencing the perception (and reality) of horrid lines, unhappy CMs and lack of new rides.

(Universal however is putting in a new hotel, Diagon Ally, Simpsons, Transformers, the Minion ride and a host of other new stuff!)

 

[Shaden]

PS, replied to you in the other thread, but thought I would throw it up here too ...

There are two primary reasons why this causes longer lines, but not necessarily longer "average waits"

1) people really may be riding more rides, which makes each person count for more "riders" as you say, you knock off 3 attractions with no wait, and then still spend your normal 6 hours in the park, ... or the spacing of your FP+s makes you hang around the park longer than you would ... you become more "riders" than you were before, increasing demand.

2) IF 1) didn't pan out, there would still be longer LINES, but not longer average waits necessarily.

Capacity doesn't change, and we are assuming here FP+ hasn't effected demand (though I think it has), But, now the 50% of people who didn't use a single FP before are almost all (Disney says 90%) using it. So they are now skipping 1 or 2 or 3 lines.

Capacity can't change, if they are skipping a 30 min wait that wait has to be redistributed.

The simplest way to look at this is to imagine if before FP+ no one used it, everyone rode 6 rides, and the wait was always 30 mins. After FP+ everyone used it, skipped 3 lines.

Ok, That means that after FP+ the average standby wait time is now 1 hour, instead of 30 mins, your average wait is the same, 30 mins per ride, but the LINES are longer.

Though again, I think scenario 1 is much more likely.

 

[DPCummerbund]

Seriously, there are two threads dedicated to this already.

Its been explained. There is no real increase in crowds, and yet wait times are considerably up. It is FP+, most likely, and there are several good reasons for it.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3255608

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3246982

Enjoy

Well, not really.

The first thread (where I've already posted as well) pretty much demonstrates how wait times are NOT collectively longer with FP+. It actually has some very good explanations why it can't be true. I'm trying to find the logic on the OPPOSITE side - an acutal logical reason against the implementation of FP+.

Logic doesn't apply at Disney - it simply doesn't' Perception is reality and in many people's reality, FP+ just doesn't work. Personally (YMMV) is this:

1. People don't like being shacked to the limit or 3 per person and to the tiering.
2. Rides that have historically NEVER needed FPs now have FP and thus created longer lines and false needs for FP.
3. Lack of park hopping for people who have bought hoppers, problems with military tickets (yeah, lets screw the vets) and ap holders/locals.
4.. There is nothing more aggravating than seeing an empty FP line in rides like the above with huge sb lines. It makes me (and I imagine others) furious. Having sb lines like these is ridiculous. I just want to scream.
5. Cast members who are not trained with the system creating more havoc than solving the issue.
6. Faulty equipment, horrible IT service and being stuck to a website that doesn't work with no recourse or way to solve it.
7. Having to miss a FP+ window due to a slow waiter, long lines, traffic, etc.
8. AP and locals having to plan their trips vs being able to run down to the parks to have a "quickie" visit.
9. Worse problem: being stuck to your cellphone with a faulty app trying to change missed FP times vs spending actual REAL time with your family and having a truly MAGICAL visit.

Perception is reality, and my real life experience with this app has not been good at all. I know that there are FP+ apologists out there, but, whatever. FP+ broke a system that was never broken. I think we may all have Great Wolf park to blame here.
But, again, there is no logic at Disney, and people are experiencing the perception (and reality) of horrid lines, unhappy CMs and lack of new rides.

(Universal however is putting in a new hotel, Diagon Ally, Simpsons, Transformers, the Minion ride and a host of other new stuff!)

Again, I'm trying to figure out why some people think that somehow FP+ is bad because it makes all the lines longer - not just reasons why people might not like FP+ or Magic Bands. So, in response to your questions:

1. True, people might not like being shackled to 3 passes, but it doesn't make the lines longer.
2. Again, WHY can this happen? What's the specific reason FP+ is making lines longer?
3. Doesn't make the lines longer.
4. Empty FP lines means that the SB lines are shorter. They cancel each other out. They may make you angry, but it doesn't make the line longer.
5,6, and 9. Technical / personnel problems with the bands or system don't make the lines any longer. They make the crowd larger AT THE LINE ENTRY, but the ride will continue to process riders, so it does not change the length of the line - it just moves it around.
7. FP- had windows. With either system, missing a window does not make the line longer. In fact, if you miss your window and decide to not do the ride at all, it makes the line shorter.
8. Trips may be less spontaneous, but they don't make the lines longer.


Again, I can see how changes to the system, being unable to use your normal schedule, and technical glitches are annoying. But "longer lines" (at least by thread count) are the number 1 complaint about FP+, and I have yet to see any real reason why that might even POSSIBLY be the case.

 

[heyitsmejosh]

fp+ has increased the wait times at attractions that didnt have it before for sure. like a week in a half ago i saw 90 minutes for pirates and thats just insane. the issue is that this will not lower the wait time at eticket attractions since most of those attractions generally have a time threshold. for example people may see 60 minutes as an acceptable wait time but if it hits 80 minutes most people walk away so really with those rides the wait time is dictated by what people deem is acceptable. the people you are forgetting about are the ones that just say screw it and find something else to do (shows. world showcase. ect) are now on the attractions they might not have been on since they got a fastpass.

 

[DPCummerbund]

fp+ has increased the wait times at attractions that didnt have it before for sure. like a week in a half ago i saw 90 minutes for pirates and thats just insane. the issue is that this will not lower the wait time at eticket attractions since most of those attractions generally have a time threshold. for example people may see 60 minutes as an acceptable wait time but if it hits 80 minutes most people walk away so really with those rides the wait time is dictated by what people deem is acceptable. the people you are forgetting about are the ones that just say screw it and find something else to do (shows. world showcase. ect) are now on the attractions they might not have been on since they got a fastpass.

If I understand your point, you're saying that some people used to go see shows and other stuff because the standby lines were too long. Now, those people are going on rides because they have fastpasses.

So, the system is just benefiting different people than before. Sure, some "commandos" are UNHAPPY, but the people who used to get mad at 80 minute standby times are now HAPPY with the new system.

The point is that lines are not necessarily LONGER - they're just longer for SOME PEOPLE. Other people are are probably happier with the new system.

 

[heyitsmejosh]

If I understand your point, you're saying that some people used to go see shows and other stuff because the standby lines were too long. Now, those people are going on rides because they have fastpasses.

So, the system is just benefiting different people than before. Sure, some "commandos" are UNHAPPY, but the people who used to get mad at 80 minute standby times are now HAPPY with the new system.

The point is that lines are not necessarily LONGER - they're just longer for SOME PEOPLE. Other people are are probably happier with the new system.

well the lines would be longer because you simply just have more people on the attractions during peak hours.

take someone like me for instance under the old fastpass system i would rarely get any for the popular attractions since im not a morning person so when i get to the parks in the afternoon i would do things like get lunch play sorcerers of the magic kingdom ect do things that dont involve lines. once the crowd went down id hit up the eticket rides ect. now i can grab 3 fast passes from my house before i even get to the park so im on 3 eticket attractions during peak hours i normally wouldnt be on.

epcot is probably a better example since people are going on more of the secondary attractions they might not have gone on simply because they got a fast pass. 2 out of 3 of your passes at epcot are on attractions that didnt have much of a wait in the past but now do.

 

[surferdave]

Ride capacity can go down, all it takes (even on the omnimovers) is sending ride vehicles through with fewer guests on board. We don't know how common that is but people have reported seeing it; we had a first hand report of couples riding PotC alone in a boat to themselves when it had a long SB line.

If the FP line moves slower than the ride can load but steadily enough that there's not time to slip SB guests in between the FP guests then the ride will load below 100% capacity.

When there is a long, stagnant SB line and a steadily moving FP line you can count the number of people scanning through the first Mickey Orb over time and that is your ride capacity, even if the ride typically moves people through faster.

This can be managed if they can figure out how often to stop the flow from the slower FP line long enough to quickly file in some of the SB guests to fill the gaps but I suspect they aren't sure how to do it yet. There certainly doesn't seem to be a protocol yet since the guest experiences vary so much.

 

[Disneylover99]

Ride capacity can go down, all it takes (even on the omnimovers) is sending ride vehicles through with fewer guests on board. We don't know how common that is but people have reported seeing it; we had a first hand report of couples riding PotC alone in a boat to themselves when it had a long SB line.

Yes, I've seen this on at least three separate occasions on EE, BTM and Splash Mountain. Sometimes there are hold ups at the FP line. These hold ups are not always communicated effectively to the cm's working the standby lines. So instead of more standby people getting to ride, both lines get held up instead, causing longer lines and wait times for standby and FP.

 

[DRDISNEYMD]

Okay, I haven't read through all the threads on the epic problems of FP+, but I have read a bunch, and I still don't understand the problem.

FP+ doesn't - in fact CANNOT - make lines longer overall for everyone. There are only two things that can do that:
1) Reduced ride capacity, and
2) Increased crowds.

If the rides are collectively longer than they were, say, a year ago, then either of these things may be happening IN CONJUNCTION with FP+, but you can't really blame FP+ for that.

There are several reports of longer waits at "secondary" attractions (like the big thread about HM and Pirates). I can see how longer waits at formerly "walkon" attractions could happen: if everybody has a FP for a "headliner" attraction, then they don't need to wait in a 2 hour standby. So, all those people who use to clog up the headliner standby lines are now in standby for the second tier rides. There's a flip side for this: the standby line at the headliner attraction is now much shorter. So, you may not be able to walk on to Pirates, but you can now go ride Space Mountain with a much shorter standby line.

As Newton's Third Law states, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If crowds are the same and the ride capacity is the same, then a longer line at one attraction means that there's a shorter line at some other attraction.

I'm not looking to start an argument or yet another thread where people post their own ride experiences - after all, experience is subjective. You can swear up and down that your waits were longer, and that may very well be true, but then the wait MUST have been shorter for somebody else - it just unfortunately wasn't you. I'd just like to find out how, logically, FP+ could possibly be making things as bad as everyone says.

Can anyone explain it to me?

Well, not really.

The first thread (where I've already posted as well) pretty much demonstrates how wait times are NOT collectively longer with FP+. It actually has some very good explanations why it can't be true. I'm trying to find the logic on the OPPOSITE side - an acutal logical reason against the implementation of FP+.



Again, I'm trying to figure out why some people think that somehow FP+ is bad because it makes all the lines longer - not just reasons why people might not like FP+ or Magic Bands. So, in response to your questions:

1. True, people might not like being shackled to 3 passes, but it doesn't make the lines longer.
2. Again, WHY can this happen? What's the specific reason FP+ is making lines longer?
3. Doesn't make the lines longer.
4. Empty FP lines means that the SB lines are shorter. They cancel each other out. They may make you angry, but it doesn't make the line longer.
5,6, and 9. Technical / personnel problems with the bands or system don't make the lines any longer. They make the crowd larger AT THE LINE ENTRY, but the ride will continue to process riders, so it does not change the length of the line - it just moves it around.
7. FP- had windows. With either system, missing a window does not make the line longer. In fact, if you miss your window and decide to not do the ride at all, it makes the line shorter.
8. Trips may be less spontaneous, but they don't make the lines longer.


Again, I can see how changes to the system, being unable to use your normal schedule, and technical glitches are annoying. But "longer lines" (at least by thread count) are the number 1 complaint about FP+, and I have yet to see any real reason why that might even POSSIBLY be the case.

If I understand your point, you're saying that some people used to go see shows and other stuff because the standby lines were too long. Now, those people are going on rides because they have fastpasses.

So, the system is just benefiting different people than before. Sure, some "commandos" are UNHAPPY, but the people who used to get mad at 80 minute standby times are now HAPPY with the new system.

The point is that lines are not necessarily LONGER - they're just longer for SOME PEOPLE. Other people are are probably happier with the new system.

~Zorro... Fabulous thread -- I totally agree with all of this! And, I think there is a significant spike in attendance -- but we won't know for sure until Disney and TEA release the figures!

 

[EMode]

The point is that lines are not necessarily LONGER - they're just longer for SOME PEOPLE. Other people are are probably happier with the new system.

That isn't really a new point, there are have been people reporting their wait times weren't long, and people who have reported their's has been long, for some rides
Anyone who utilized FP- to its fullest will most likely end up waiting for longer periods than they have before. People who didn't use it and either waitied in SB or skipped the ride can now schedule their 3 are happy they can do that.

 

[DVCcurious]

~Zorro... Fabulous thread

Dude, it's not zorro. It's The Dread Pirate Roberts, AKA Wesley, from one of the most entertaining movies ever.

Just keep your eyes open for any ROUS's...

 

[Tink-n-Belle]

Seriously, there are two threads dedicated to this already.

Its been explained. There is no real increase in crowds, and yet wait times are considerably up. It is FP+, most likely, and there are several good reasons for it.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3255608

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3246982

Enjoy

I am here now and YES there is an increase in crowds... The MK closed Wednesday....the parks were not even expecting the crowds....at 1 pm the wait to get In Was 30 people deep at each Mickey head ...my dd mouth dropped when we saw that.. You couldn't even move on main st 1/2 before wishes....... And MK was the recommended park. They had to extend hours at a couple of parks and add shows at all of them.

This week was projected to be a 7 to 9 and it's crazy. The show the middle is filming here.. So that may be adding to the crowds..... But the op is correct.....
The crowds are increasing and FP has nothing to do with it.

I am torn with the FP. I liked it but then i don't...hate the tiering at Epcot......it just stinks with the crowds this week....we used to ride soaring and TT 3 times a day.....only been on 1 each ride...... Soarin and TT waits were 2 hours last night.... But it's nice to have FP's already......but the selection wasn't great 1 week out. 60 days out will be great ( my next trip since I got an ap this time)

 

[EMode]

I am here now and YES there is an increase in crowds... The MK closed Wednesday....the parks were not even expecting the crowds....at 1 pm the wait to get In Was 30 people deep at each Mickey head ...my dd mouth dropped when we saw that.. You couldn't even move on main st 1/2 before wishes....... And MK was the recommended park. They had to extend hours at a couple of parks and add shows at all of them.

This week was projected to be a 7 to 9 and it's crazy. The show the middle is filming here.. So that may be adding to the crowds..... But the op is correct.....
The crowds are increasing and FP has nothing to do with it.

I am torn with the FP. I liked it but then i don't...hate the tiering at Epcot......it just stinks with the crowds this week....we used to ride soaring and TT 3 times a day.....only been on 1 each ride...... Soarin and TT waits were 2 hours last night.... But it's nice to have FP's already......but the selection wasn't great 1 week out. 60 days out will be great ( my next trip since I got an ap this time)

Are 7-9 crowds unusual during Spring Break?

 

[surferdave]

Dude, it's not zorro. It's The Dread Pirate Roberts, AKA Wesley, from one of the most entertaining movies ever.

He's no one of consequence.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

He's no one of consequence.

 

[*disgal*]

He's no one of consequence.

But any man who keeps saying, "as you wish" can't be all bad.

And no, it's always crowded this time of year. When I'm there in 2 weeks it will be 10's!! With possible park closings.

The question will be when the numbers come back.....was it more crowded than it normally is for that week?

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

But any man who keeps saying, "as you wish" can't be all bad.

And no, it's always crowded this time of year. When I'm there in 2 weeks it will be 10's!! With possible park closings.

The question will be when the numbers come back.....was it more crowded than it normally is for that week?

It will be interesting to see how the next few weeks go. With Easter so late you would think that the Spring Breaks crowd would be more spread out.

 

[Shaden]

~Zorro... Fabulous thread -- I totally agree with all of this! And, I think there is a significant spike in attendance -- but we won't know for sure until Disney and TEA release the figures!

There is NO SPIKE in attendance.

We know this. Josh at easywdw noted a 1.5% increase in attendance, and that can not account for the increase in wait times. How many times do people have to point this out ?