Where are (or were) the crowds?????

I agree...and have soapboxed this.

The way I interpret though is that the economy is fine in those areas (as in what they have been for along time) but disney has intentionally (or obtusely...we'll never know for sure) intentionally cut those markets out. By choice.

Wdw was never "cheap"...it took committment from many middle class patrons since 10/1/71...but it was possible.

Bob iger and his team of LA suits have convinced themselves that "luxury" works. Lol...it's not luxury...it's very well run, high end family amusements. And there is nothing like it. But that doesn't equal "luxury" in the thesaurus.

Disneyland...and Disney world...are designed as middle class destinations. Down to their core. They cannot sustain themselves if every patron has to make $150,000+. They need a mass Audience that doesn't get that high.

They will collapse...they will be gone...we will have to rely on our memories down the road. That's why management is wrong and dangerous. Slow down the money train before you run out of track.


I'll agree on WDW never being cheap. My parents would save all year for our annual pilgrimage to the MK when we were little. It was the only vacation we took all year (combined with a half week to St. Pete). I still find it to be priced right for my family. There really isn't anything out there that compares to the entire experience.

Problem is, that your $150,000 isn't relative. They have a pricing structure that isn't going to be flat across incomes across the country. The middle class income is different regionally. Are you telling me one person has to make $150K to be middle class? Or is that the combined income?

I always laugh at your signature, because I'm never sure when the last time you WERE a guest there. For all we know, you're waxing on, and haven't been there in over ten years.
 
I'll agree on WDW never being cheap. My parents would save all year for our annual pilgrimage to the MK when we were little. It was the only vacation we took all year (combined with a half week to St. Pete). I still find it to be priced right for my family. There really isn't anything out there that compares to the entire experience.

Problem is, that your $150,000 isn't relative. They have a pricing structure that isn't going to be flat across incomes across the country. The middle class income is different regionally. Are you telling me one person has to make $150K to be middle class? Or is that the combined income?

I always laugh at your signature, because I'm never sure when the last time you WERE a guest there. For all we know, you're waxing on, and haven't been there in over ten years.

$150 average daily price at all stars...$190 or so at Caribbean...$450+ at Boardwalk...

$110 average daily tickets...$40 dollar average entree price at restaurants...

Prices always go up...but I remember damn near every one since circa 99-2000 (hint) and every year since...the pattern is OFF. It's not that the individual bumps are that huge...it's the frequency and compounding effect.

It's not that now everyone needs to make $150+ now...it's that it's going that way ahead of earnings/income. Because bob is 65 and don't care...no last name...no loyalty/interest. Just ego...the ego of saying you made more than anyone. Bad business.

The experience is still "good"...but let's cut the turkey and be honest with each other: every disney fan, deep down, is really starting to hate the rope offs and surcharge pricing. Even if you aren't offended/bothered by it and occasionally use it. It's getting to us all. I would be hard pressed to find a compelling counter argument. "Laisse faire" is such a copout and requires no higher thought/reasoning ability. It's low rent.

You might go on the beach every week and not care that the beach is eroding...but in 10 years
When the beach is gone you're gonna be ticked and could have bought some sand years ago.

As far as my "frequency"...it was never more than 3 or 4 months away until the depths of the bubble crash...circa 2012...and the upswing. Their policies have driven me away since. But still 6 months or less average...when I'm comfortable not taking more "extended" periods off - 10 to 12 months to rotate passes. I've got one of those coming up now...do I renew? It's been an "ok" year but is it worth $2300 for 2017?

I'm more loyal than 99% of disney park patrons...and I have to ponder this. THAT...is a problem for me...therefore it's one for them, and everyone.
 
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The only thing that bothers me when going now, is the FP+ system (we're screwed since we have a time share off site, which we bought before DVC came to be), and the Dining. It used to be nice to walk up to a place and get a table....now, it's impossible. We ate at Peco's Bills three times this past trip (I highly recommend the burrito there!), because we were tired of Pinocchio's and Cosmic Ray's was too far a walk.

My wife isn't a Disney fan, per se, so an annual trip will never be in the cards. At least not as a family....I might be able to sneak off on a weekend by myself if the need arose. So we've compromised that every two years is acceptable, that gives us plenty of time to save.
 
The only thing that bothers me when going now, is the FP+ system (we're screwed since we have a time share off site, which we bought before DVC came to be), and the Dining. It used to be nice to walk up to a place and get a table....now, it's impossible. We ate at Peco's Bills three times this past trip (I highly recommend the burrito there!), because we were tired of Pinocchio's and Cosmic Ray's was too far a walk.

My wife isn't a Disney fan, per se, so an annual trip will never be in the cards. At least not as a family....I might be able to sneak off on a weekend by myself if the need arose. So we've compromised that every two years is acceptable, that gives us plenty of time to save.

Don't look now...but I could interpret what you're saying as:

"Disney's lack of investment to address rising attendance and pricing/financial policies have forced us to alter the way we enjoy our trips and made choices/limits that take some of the fun out of the process of vacation/recreation"

Ehh??
 

Hi, we haven't met...I've changed my "touring style" 100 different ways and have spoke in detail about that. The perspective is that if they are turning me - former employee, former Florida resident, disney wedding patron, DVC owner, repeated traveler raising two mini dis-ites who has spent a fortune as a young adult (I'm not that old) and causing me to intentionally restrict certain things (like the holiday events which are overcrowded and overpriced due to bad management decisions) as a matter of consumer principle - away, then it is bad for the longterm health of the parks and the economics.

That means it's bad for you too. Everyone.

And as a point of discussion...the reason this whole thread exists is to discuss why the crowds aren't "unbearable/uncomfortable" during the peak weeks. Because they have been since the 1980's that's a matter of record. 12/23-1/2 is the highest attended block in the swamp. The numbers have always shown that.

The economy is "booming" (if you believe that...but most do)...why on earth would attendance be down? That makes zero sense in that business. We are speculating if this is a self inflicted wound...and I believe it is for a variety of reasons.
For the most part I have agreed with you on many, many things, but it seems that when someone like myself chooses to participate in a Disney offering that interests us, you are quick to snub. I do enjoy the discussions with you about various Disney things, and I can agree to disagree, but choosing to do something when you don't doesn't make me less educated or less rational.

Besides the former employee, we share the same demographic. I agree that there are decisions being made at Disney that I don't agree with and when I don't agree I do so with my wallet. However, it's still a place I love and I have also changed my touring style to reflect what I am willing to do and what I am not willing to do and I think that goes for anywhere and not just Disney.

I used to love the dining plan. Now, I won't touch it with a 10ft pole because Disney made it ridiculous in price by inflating the cost of food at restaurants. So, I understand what you're saying about inflated numbers and inflated pricing.

Do I think attendance is down overall? Yes. However, I feel the original OP who mentioned it was rather comfortable to travel up until Xmas eve is experiencing an unusual phenomenon of where Xmas fell this year. I experienced it last year as well. Everything was great until Xmas eve came and then all hell broke loose because Xmas fell on a Saturday. I think you'll see it go away next year because Xmas will fall on a Monday and that will give people two days before Xmas to get to the parks and they'll probably take the Friday before off and crowds will be consistent from the 22nd of Dec - Jan 3
 
Don't look now...but I could interpret what you're saying as:

"Disney's lack of investment to address rising attendance and pricing/financial policies have forced us to alter the way we enjoy our trips and made choices/limits that take some of the fun out of the process of vacation/recreation"

Ehh??

LOL!
 
For the most part I have agreed with you on many, many things, but it seems that when someone like myself chooses to participate in a Disney offering that interests us, you are quick to snub. I do enjoy the discussions with you about various Disney things, and I can agree to disagree, but choosing to do something when you don't doesn't make me less educated or less rational.

Besides the former employee, we share the same demographic. I agree that there are decisions being made at Disney that I don't agree with and when I don't agree I do so with my wallet. However, it's still a place I love and I have also changed my touring style to reflect what I am willing to do and what I am not willing to do and I think that goes for anywhere and not just Disney.

I used to love the dining plan. Now, I won't touch it with a 10ft pole because Disney made it ridiculous in price by inflating the cost of food at restaurants. So, I understand what you're saying about inflated numbers and inflated pricing.

Do I think attendance is down overall? Yes. However, I feel the original OP who mentioned it was rather comfortable to travel up until Xmas eve is experiencing an unusual phenomenon of where Xmas fell this year. I experienced it last year as well. Everything was great until Xmas eve came and then all hell broke loose because Xmas fell on a Saturday. I think you'll see it go away next year because Xmas will fall on a Monday and that will give people two days before Xmas to get to the parks and they'll probably take the Friday before off and crowds will be consistent from the 22nd of Dec - Jan 3

We do mostly agree...but I realized I probably misinterpreted myself originally...

I was wondering why you - being a "fla-ridian" - would do the parties several times (it appears)...during those sticky, "unflorida resident" crowds when you could do weekends at other less travels period? That was my initial question...if you have the passes? Just curiosity
 
I don't disagree but Disney is recognizing that attendance is down and is looking to get people in the parks.

Agee...the offer is dumb but the fact it's 6 months out shows some desperation on their part.

They're trying to bait people with bad deals to trick them into retail first...and will intensify as they get to the normal 3-4 month out promo period.

People, please, don't book this crap. Make them sweat and hold 'em like Kenny Rogers
 
We do mostly agree...but I realized I probably misinterpreted myself originally...

I was wondering why you - being a "fla-ridian" - would do the parties several times (it appears)...during those sticky, "unflorida resident" crowds when you could do weekends at other less travels period? That was my initial question...if you have the passes? Just curiosity

Well, I guess I would have to say that it is a guaranteed way for me to, using a term used previously on this board, avoid the "common folk". Here's the thing, I pay to rent the cabanas in Typhoon Lagoon at $340 a pop. Why? Because I didn't have to pay to get in. I have the money for admission, but I don't have to spend it on admission. I get to spend it on something more luxurious while others had to spend it on the admit ticket. Do I do it every time? Nope. However, my schedule makes weekend visiting the most convenient so I have to do a little out of my way when I decide I need to visit at a time that is probably less than ideal. So, if I need a TL fix, but I'm worried about the crowd, I book a cabana. Last year, we went for Easter because Holidays are boring for us (Atheists) and well, we got a cabana and just had the most relaxing day. I have no idea how crowded it was that day and I didn't even care. I can tell you stuff had lines because my son mentioned it, but my husband and I never saw them.

I spring for the parties because we like to experience different things. See, we've done all the "free" stuff that we're out of stuff to do. We want to do the other stuff like the parties, but to do that, we have to have admission unless it's a hard ticket event that MNSSHP or MVMCP. So, we can't get rid of the passes and just buy party tickets. We're interested in touring now that our son is teenager. We love to learn about the "magic", but to do the tours, you need admission. So no matter what extras we want to do, we're tethered to the passes in order to experience them.

As far as our travel periods, I usually avoid high crowd times, except, and this is the most ironic, 4th of July and Xmas. I book a Fort Wilderness cabin and host a bunch of friends for a 4th of July party and then on Xmas instead of staying home with nothing to do, we get to go to Disney and entertain ourselves and nothing is closed.

Now, could I stay home for 4th of July? Yep. This year our pool was under construction and came on line one day before we were to leave for the Fort. Well, I had all the crap in place anyway so we just went, but I couldn't host a party like that at home. The fireworks alone would have blown my budget. However, next year, we'll probably go in June and host 4th of July at hour house since the pool is fixed.

For Christmas, like I said, we're atheists. So Christmas for us is really boring. We like to exchange gifts, but once that's done, there's nothing else to do. Last year we decided to start traveling at Christmas. My son is too old for Santa now, so I have no need to be tethered to a tree. We enjoyed the mass amount of entertainment and decided to do it again this year. However, I don't want to deal with the crowds, but I want to be at the parks. So I paid to avoid the crowd. I WANT to be there at Christmas and see all the happenings and experience the unique things not offered during other times of the year (Illuminations Christmas finale), but I don't want to sit next to 400 other people to do it. So I paid $70 a person, we got a perfect view, snacks, drinks, and lots of elbow room and we left very happy. Will I do it again? Maybe. Can I say I've done it and now can choose to do it again? Yes. I like to experience everything, at least once.

I tour the parks at all times of the year, busy and non-busy. I try and stay away from busy days/weeks, but that's becoming harder and harder to do, even with attendance "down". Also, I work a full-time job and I competitive bowl on the weekends so my schedule doesn't always allow for weekends to spend at Disney. Usually, I have to take a day off in the middle of the week if I want to go during a slow time and then I am restricted on what I can do.

So while it may seem ideal to avoid the crowds and go at "slower" times, those times don't always give me the ability to do everything I want to do and sometimes my schedule doesn't allow it and I have to be herded in with the rest of the cattle, but I have the luxury of buying my way out of it.
 
$150 average daily price at all stars...$190 or so at Caribbean...$450+ at Boardwalk...

$110 average daily tickets...$40 dollar average entree price at restaurants...

Prices always go up...but I remember damn near every one since circa 99-2000 (hint) and every year since...the pattern is OFF. It's not that the individual bumps are that huge...it's the frequency and compounding effect.

It's not that now everyone needs to make $150+ now...it's that it's going that way ahead of earnings/income. Because bob is 65 and don't care...no last name...no loyalty/interest. Just ego...the ego of saying you made more than anyone. Bad business.

The experience is still "good"...but let's cut the turkey and be honest with each other: every disney fan, deep down, is really starting to hate the rope offs and surcharge pricing. Even if you aren't offended/bothered by it and occasionally use it. It's getting to us all. I would be hard pressed to find a compelling counter argument. "Laisse faire" is such a copout and requires no higher thought/reasoning ability. It's low rent.

You might go on the beach every week and not care that the beach is eroding...but in 10 years
When the beach is gone you're gonna be ticked and could have bought some sand years ago.

As far as my "frequency"...it was never more than 3 or 4 months away until the depths of the bubble crash...circa 2012...and the upswing. Their policies have driven me away since. But still 6 months or less average...when I'm comfortable not taking more "extended" periods off - 10 to 12 months to rotate passes. I've got one of those coming up now...do I renew? It's been an "ok" year but is it worth $2300 for 2017?

I'm more loyal than 99% of disney park patrons...and I have to ponder this. THAT...is a problem for me...therefore it's one for them, and everyone.

I unliked this just so I could like it again.

You can't tell me that my 2.5k trip just 5 years ago is now "worth" 4.5k next year. I keep trying to tell myself it is, but it's getting harder.

It's getting to where I need to analyze it like a fund. When you are trying to find the beta of your vacation, you might be in trouble.
 
Agee...the offer is dumb but the fact it's 6 months out shows some desperation on their part.

They're trying to bait people with bad deals to trick them into retail first...and will intensify as they get to the normal 3-4 month out promo period.

People, please, don't book this crap. Make them sweat and hold 'em like Kenny Rogers

Both of their offers are dumb. OMG!! A FREE QUICK SERVICE MEAL??!

 
I don't disagree but Disney is recognizing that attendance is down and is looking to get people in the parks.
I agree. But its fine line they need to walk so that it appears these ideas are there to bring "new experiences" to park goers instead of reeking of desperation.
 
I don't disagree but Disney is recognizing that attendance is down and is looking to get people in the parks.

Not really, Every offer released so far has offered less than what was offered the previous year. Room discounts are only up to 25% at a few resorts compared to 30% last year. They have restricted the resorts more so then before and reduced the number of rooms available at the promotional rates.
 
Not really, Every offer released so far has offered less than what was offered the previous year. Room discounts are only up to 25% at a few resorts compared to 30% last year. They have restricted the resorts more so then before and reduced the number of rooms available at the promotional rates.
They don't have a problem filling rooms. Occupancy rates have stayed the same and even gone up in some cases. It's getting people in the parks that is the current problem.
 












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