What's 'wrong' with Catholicism (dare we try to discuss without debate?)

DisneyDotty said:
See, this is where we (Catholics) have more in common with all other Christian faiths than one might think. I'd venture that 99.5% (or more) of RCC doctrine comes directly from the Scriptures (though the Catholic Bible IS a bit different than Protestant Bibles). But it's our interpretation of Scripture that sets us apart, and that actually has been the cause of much stife, war and debate as long as there has been a Bible.
I think you really boiled it down to the core issue. As a non-Catholic, I am aware that Catholics do look to Scripture as the basis of their beliefs. We just disagree on the interpretations of some of the Scripture. I think you are correct though that there are many similarities. Chief among them and most important among them the need for Christ as Savior as the single path to salvation. This unites the vast majority of Christian denominations, including Catholicism and Protestantism. Thanks for saying this so succinctly and clearly. We may not all agree on Biblical interpretation, but Christian denominations can agree on the path to salvation through Christ.
 
dennis99ss said:
Why is it ok for a private company to set rules as to what goes on in their business, but, not for the catgholic church to do the same. If a hospital is owned by a catholic organization, they have the right to make the decision. If people do not like the way it is run, they can go elsewhere. If there is no alternative, and people want a choice, start a new hospital.

Thanks, that's a great example.

A hospital exists so doctors can treat people to the best of their ability, not to treat people according to their beliefs. They shouldn't be in the medicine business if they are going to pick and choose based on religious beliefs.

In many places (I know of one here locally) the Catholic hospital is the only option in the area. People don't always get to pick their hospital.

As TF posted earlier, how about some Muslim doctors refusing to treat people until the situation met with their beliefs? Different? I think not.
 
ead79 said:
I think you really boiled it down to the core issue. As a non-Catholic, I am aware that Catholics do look to Scripture as the basis of their beliefs. We just disagree on the interpretations of some of the Scripture. I think you are correct though that there are many similarities. Chief among them and most important among them the need for Christ as Savior as the single path to salvation. This unites the vast majority of Christian denominations, including Catholicism and Protestantism. Thanks for saying this so succinctly and clearly. We may not all agree on Biblical interpretation, but Christian denominations can agree on the path to salvation through Christ.

this could be the happy ending for this thread :goodvibes but i'm also happy to see the discussion continue.
 
OK, to try to clear up some confusion regarding Communion, Transubstantiation, and Real Presence . . .


Here is what I found in the New Advent Catholic encyclopedia on Transubstantiation:

III. TRANSUBSTANTIATION
Before proving dogmatically the fact of the substantial change here under consideration, we must first outline its history and nature.

(a) The scientific development of the concept of Transubstantiation can hardly be said to be a product of the Greeks, who did not get beyond its more general notes; rather, it is the remarkable contribution of the Latin theologians, who were stimulated to work it out in complete logical form by the three Eucharistic controversies mentioned above, The term transubstantiation seems to have been first used by Hildebert of Tours (about 1079). His encouraging example was soon followed by other theologians, as Stephen of Autun (d. 1139), Gaufred (1188), and Peter of Blois (d. about 1200), whereupon several ecumenical councils also adopted this significant expression, as the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215), and the Council of Lyons (1274), in the profession of faith of the Greek Emperor Michael Palæologus. The Council of Trent (Sess. XIII, cap. iv; can. ii) not only accepted as an inheritance of faith the truth contained in the idea, but authoritatively confirmed the "aptitude of the term" to express most strikingly the legitimately developed doctrinal concept. In a closer logical analysis of Transubstantiation, we find the first and fundamental notion to be that of conversion, which may be defined as "the transition of one thing into another in some aspect of being". As is immediately evident, conversion (conversio) is something more than mere change (mutatio). Whereas in mere changes one of the two extremes may be expressed negatively, as, e.g., in the change of day and night, conversion requires two positive extremes, which are related to each other as thing to thing, and must have, besides, such an intimate connection with each other, that the last extreme (terminus ad quem) begins to be only as the first (terminus a quo) ceases to be, as, e.g., in the conversion of water into wine at Cana. A third element is usually required, known as the commune tertium, which, even after conversion has taken place, either physically or at least logically unites one extreme to the other; for in every true conversion the following condition must be fulfilled: "What was formerly A, is now B." A very important question suggests itself as to whether the definition should further postulate the previous non-existence of the last extreme, for it seems strange that an existing terminus a quo, A, should be converted into an already existing terminus ad quem, B. If the act of conversion is not to become a mere process of substitution, as in sleight-of-hand performances, the terminus ad quem must unquestionably in some manner newly exist, just as the terminus a quo must in some manner really cease to exist. Yet as the disappearance of the latter is not attributable to annihilation properly so called, so there is no need of postulating creation, strictly so called, to explain the former's coming into existence. The idea of conversion is amply realized if the following condition is fulfilled, viz., that a thing which already existed in substance, acquires an altogether new and previously non-existing mode of being. Thus in the resurrection of the dead, the dust of the human bodies will be truly converted into the bodies of the risen by their previously existing souls, just as at death they had been truly converted into corpses by the departure of the souls. This much as regards the general notion of conversion. Transubstantiation, however, is not a conversion simply so called, but a substantial conversion (conversio substantialis), inasmuch as one thing is substantially or essentially converted into another. Thus from the concept of Transubstantiation is excluded every sort of merely accidental conversion, whether it be purely natural (e.g. the metamorphosis of insects) or supernatural (e.g. the Transfiguration of Christ on Mount Tabor). Finally, Transubstantiation differs from every other substantial conversion in this, that only the substance is converted into another — the accidents remaining the same — just as would be the case if wood were miraculously converted into iron, the substance of the iron remaining hidden under the external appearance of the wood.

The application of the foregoing to the Eucharist is an easy matter. First of all the notion of conversion is verified in the Eucharist, not only in general, but in all its essential details. For we have the two extremes of conversion, namely, bread and wine as the terminus a quo, and the Body and Blood of Christ as the terminus ad quem. Furthermore, the intimate connection between the cessation of one extreme and the appearance of the other seems to be preserved by the fact, that both events are the results, not of two independent processes, as, e.g. annihilation and creation, but of one single act, since, according to the purpose of the Almighty, the substance of the bread and wine departs in order to make room for the Body and Blood of Christ. Lastly, we have the commune tertium in the unchanged appearances of bread and wine, under which appearances the pre-existent Christ assumes a new, sacramental mode of being, and without which His Body and Blood could not be partaken of by men. That the consequence of Transubstantiation, as a conversion of the total substance, is the transition of the entire substance of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, is the express doctrine of the Church (Council of Trent, Sess. XIII, can. ii). Thus were condemned as contrary to faith the antiquated view of Durandus, that only the substantial form (forma substantialis) of the bread underwent conversion, while the primary matter (materia prima) remained, and, especially, Luther's doctrine of Consubstantiation, i.e. the coexistence of the substance of the bread with the true Body of Christ. Thus, too, the theory of Impanation advocated by Osiander and certain Berengarians, and according to which a hypostatic union is supposed to take place between the substance of the bread and the God-man (impanatio = Deus panis factus), is authoritatively rejected. So the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation sets up a mighty bulwark around the dogma of the Real Presence and constitutes in itself a distinct doctrinal article, which is not involved in that of the Real Presence, though the doctrine of the Real Presence is necessarily contained in that of Transubstantiation. It was for this very reason that Pius VI, in his dogmatic Bull "Auctorem fidei" (1794) against the Jansenistic pseudo Synod of Pistoia (1786), protested most vigorously against suppressing this "scholastic question", as the synod had advised pastors to do.

(b) In the mind of the Church, Transubstantiation has been so intimately bound up with the Real Presence, that both dogmas have been handed down together from generation to generation, though we cannot entirely ignore a dogmatico-historical development. The total conversion of the substance of bread is expressed clearly in the words of Institution: "This is my body". These words form, not a theoretical, but a practical proposition, whose essence consists in this, that the objective identity between subject and predicate is effected and verified only after the words have all been uttered, not unlike the pronouncement of a king to a subaltern: "You are a major", or, "You are a captain", which would immediately cause the promotion of the officer to a higher command. When, therefore, He Who is All Truth and All Power said of the bread: "This is my body", the bread became, through the utterance of these words, the Body of Christ; consequently, on the completion of the sentence the substance of bread was no longer present, but the Body of Christ under the outward appearance of bread. Hence the bread must have become the Body of Christ, i.e. the former must have been converted into the latter. The words of Institution were at the same time the words of Transubstantiation. Indeed the actual manner in which the absence of the bread and the presence of the Body of Christ is effected, is not read into the words of Institution but strictly and exegetically deduced from them. The Calvinists, therefore, are perfectly right when they reject the Lutheran doctrine of Consubstantiation as a fiction, with no foundation in Scripture. For had Christ intended to assert the coexistence of His Body with the Substance of the bread, He would have expressed a simple identity between hoc and corpus by means of the copula est, but would have resorted to some such expression as: "This bread contains my body", or, "In this bread is my Body." Had He desired to constitute bread the sacramental receptacle of His Body, He would have had to state this expressly, for neither from the nature of the case nor according to common parlance can a piece of bread be made to signify the receptacle of a human body. On the other hand, the synecdoche is plain in the case of the Chalice: "This is my blood", i.e. the contents of the Chalice are my blood, and hence no longer wine.

Regarding tradition, the earliest witnesses, as Tertullian and Cyprian, could hardly have given any particular consideration to the genetic relation of the natural elements of bread and wine to the Body and Blood of Christ, or to the manner in which the former were converted into the latter; for even Augustine was deprived of a clear conception of Transubstantiation, so long as he was held in the bonds of Platonism. On the other hand, complete clearness on the subject had been attained by writers as early as Cyril of Jerusalem, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Gregory of Nyssa, Chrysostom, and Cyril of Alexandria in the East, and by Ambrose and the later Latin writers in the West. Eventually the West became the classic home of scientific perfection in the difficult doctrine of Transubstantiation. The claims of the learned work of the Anglican Dr. Pusey (The Doctrine of the Real Presence as contained in the Fathers, Oxford, 1855), who denied the cogency of the patristic argument for Transubstantiation, have been met and thoroughly answered by Cardinal Franzelin (De Euchar., Rome, 1887, xiv). The argument from tradition is strikingly confirmed by the ancient liturgies, whose beautiful prayers express the idea of conversion in the clearest manner. Many examples may be found in Renaudot, "Liturgiæ orient." (2nd ed., 1847); Assemani, "Codex liturg." (13 vols., Rome 1749-66); Denzinger, "Ritus Orientalium" (2 vols., Würzburg, 1864), Concerning the Adduction Theory of the Scotists and the Production Theory of the Thomists, see Pohle, "Dogmatik" (3rd ed., Paderborn, 1908), III, 237 sqq

And on the www.episcopalchurch.org website, here's what it says about Real Presence (which is what the Episcopal Church believes):

Real Presence

The presence of Christ in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. The 1991 statement of the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission notes, "The elements are not mere signs; Christ's body and blood become really present and are really given. But they are really present and given in order that, receiving them, believers may be united in communion with Christ the Lord." A classic Anglican statement attributed to John Donne (or to Queen Elizabeth I) and included in The Hymnal 1982 (Hymn 322) is "He was the Word that spake it, he took the bread and brake it, and what that Word did make it, I do believe and take it." In Eucharistic Prayer A of Rite 2, the celebrant prays that God the Father will sanctify the gifts of bread and wine "by your Holy Spirit to be for your people the Body and Blood of your Son, the holy food and drink of new and unending life in him" (BCP, p. 363). The Catechism notes that the inward and spiritual grace in the eucharist is "the Body and Blood of Christ given to his people and received by faith" (BCP, p. 859). Belief in the real presence does not imply a claim to know how Christ is present in the eucharistic elements. Belief in the real presence does not imply belief that the consecrated eucharistic elements cease to be bread and wine. See Transubstantiation; see Receptionism
 

I think that one of the biggest issues with all Christians, regardless of denomination, is an incomplete knowledge of the scriptures. Practically all of the Catholic Church's doctrines are derived (obviously through the Church's own brand of exegesis and hermeneutics [sp?]) from the scriptures. Penance, the Eucharist, Transsubstantiation, etc. are all scripturally based. We Catholics love our Tradition. And, sometimes when we can't remember, or didn't know to begin with, the scriptural evidence for some of our beliefs, we say "Tradition!" Ultimately, though, Tradition is all about the scriptures.

There are a few things that are a little flimsy. The reason why Priests can't marry, for example, has a lot to do with primogeniture and property rights in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages. The church didn't want their priests leaving Church property to their children.

If I can address the birth control issue briefly, I forget which papal announcement has the specifics, it's called De Vita something or other, by Pope John Paul II. Natural Family Planning is supported because it does not, by artificial means inhibit the miracle of pregnancy. If God wants you to have a baby there's still a chance for you to have one while using NFP. Admittedly there is still also a chance of getting pregnant when using a condom or the pill or both, and whichever (NFP or birth control when correctly used) has a lower percentage of pregnancy I don't know. One of the big problems that the Church has with the pill (and I admit to not being up to date on whether or not this is still the case with all pills) is that it can sometimes be abortifacious. That is, one of the ways that the pill works is that a fertilized egg will be unable to implant in the uterine wall. Since the egg has been fertilized the Church recognizes it as a baby, so not allowing it to implant and grow is, technically, according to the Church, abortion.

Personally I don't have a problem with birth control. And, I think it's great that some of the bishops in Africa are encouraging the use of condoms to stem the spread of AIDS. Some of the other bishops/priests there, though, have done some really stupid things, like tell people that using a condom will give you AIDS. That is reprehensible.
 
FencerMcNally said:
There are a few things that are a little flimsy. The reason why Priests can't marry, for example, has a lot to do with primogeniture and property rights in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages. The church didn't want their priests leaving Church property to their children.

I had quite a long discussion about this with one of my priests and he stated that, because the tradition of Priests not marrying is one the Church created *after* it's original inception at the hands of St. Peter, it could be done away with if any Pope rejected it and held a council that voted to remove it.

Priests being only male, however, is a "Tradition" tied into the inception of the Church and Biblical basis, and will never be overturned.

There are some "rules" within the Catholic Church that have the possibility for change (i.e. almost all teaching about Scientific matters is mutable because the Pope is only infallible on matters of faith), and some that have no possibility of change.
 
FencerMcNally said:
, I forget which papal announcement has the specifics, it's called De Vita something or other, by Pope John Paul II. Natural Family Planning is supported because it does not, by artificial means inhibit the miracle of pregnancy.

Humanae Vitae
:teeth:
 


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