What's with the Jesus skywriting?

salmoneous said:
So does that mean Emmanuel Lewis is God too??? (sorry, couldn't resist)

1emmanuel8299.jpg
I just want to pointout that having the name G-d is with us is a totally normal thing for Jews to do..Most Jewish names have similar hebrew backgrounds..It's also not apunishable sin under Jewish law to claim to be G-d..If it was a violoation of Jewish law the proper procedure would be to try Jesus in a Jewish court..Jews did not just go around stoning people without triial...It should also be known that the death penalty was EXTREMELY rare under Jewish law,and a court that executed more than 1 person in 100 years was known as a*bloody court*

Salmonius, Just using your post about Hebrew names as a jumping off point.
 
Christianity is not just based on New Testament scriptures. We believe the prophets of the Old Testament also pointed to Jesus as the Savior or the Messiah. Here is a list of those scriptures. I know Judaism believes most of these speak about Israel. But Christianity believes these prophets or those who spoke about the future are speaking about Yeshua, Jesus.

Messianic Prophecy in the Jewish Bible
Genesis 3:15
Messiah will defeat Satan
Deuteronomy 18:15-18
God will raise up a prophet
Isaiah 7:14
Messiah to be born of a virgin
Isaiah 9:5
Messiah is God
Isaiah 52:13-53:12
Suffering servant - Perfect atonement for sins
Jeremiah 31:31-34
Messiah brings a new covenant
Micah 5:1
Messiah to be born in Bethlehem
Zechariah 9:9
Messiah will come lowly - riding on a donkey
Zechariah 12:10
Messiah will be pierced and Jerusalem will mourn
Psalm 22
Messiah will suffer
Daniel 9:24-27
Messiah will come at appointed time
 
Joyce Kingkade said:
Christianity is not just based on New Testament scriptures. We believe the prophets of the Old Testament also pointed to Jesus as the Savior or the Messiah. Here is a list of those scriptures. I know Judaism believes most of these speak about Israel. But Christianity believes these prophets or those who spoke about the future are speaking about Yeshua, Jesus.

Messianic Prophecy in the Jewish Bible
Genesis 3:15
Messiah will defeat Satan
Deuteronomy 18:15-18
God will raise up a prophet
Isaiah 7:14
Messiah to be born of a virgin
Isaiah 9:5
Messiah is God
Isaiah 52:13-53:12
Suffering servant - Perfect atonement for sins
Jeremiah 31:31-34
Messiah brings a new covenant
Micah 5:1
Messiah to be born in Bethlehem
Zechariah 9:9
Messiah will come lowly - riding on a donkey
Zechariah 12:10
Messiah will be pierced and Jerusalem will mourn
Psalm 22
Messiah will suffer
Daniel 9:24-27
Messiah will come at appointed time

I know most of you have beendown this road with me before,butb Just to reiterate,Jews and Christias do not have the same Messianic prophecies...Just for one example there is no Virgin Birth Prophecy in tha Tanakh and the verses about the suffereing servant arenot viewed as messianic as the jewsh bible identifies the suffering servant as the people Isreal...And justfor one more. Jews don't view Satan as beng in the Genesisstory at all..The serpent is just a serpent
 
Joyce Kingkade said:
I am not trying to push my beliefs on you, all I was trying to do was to allow everyone to search for themselves, what the true translation was. Sorry you took it so defensively.

And you can't even see that your apology is tainted with moral superiority.

what the true translation is?

What is that, if not another attempt to back door the notion that you are right and I'm wrong? Not once in my posts did I try to say that my beliefs were THE right ones, only that they were the right ones for me. I merely tried to explain what I believed and why. The fact is not even the translations are absolute. So ultimately we all each left to our own perspective.
 

KikiFan said:
And you can't even see that your apology is tainted with moral superiority.



What is that, if not another attempt to back door the notion that you are right and I'm wrong? Not once in my posts did I try to say that my beliefs were THE right ones, only that they were the right ones for me. I merely tried to explain what I believed and why. The fact is not even the translations are absolute. So ultimately we all each left to our own perspective.


I did not say mine was the true translation, I said each could determine that for themselves. They can totally reject it if that is the conclusion they come to. I do not feel morally superior. I am not saying yours are wrong. I may believe they are, but I want each person to research, find out for themselves not accept what you say or what I say. I think we were agreeing that translation lacks. I was just pointing others to a way to determine what is the best translation or what is not.
 
Is.7:14 Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I found this in the Tanakh. Who was Isaiah speaking about? I just want to learn about Judaism. Is the Tanakh I went to online not a proper Jewish version?
 
Joyce Kingkade said:
Is.7:14 Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I found this in the Tanakh. Who was Isaiah speaking about? I just want to learn about Judaism. Is the Tanakh I went to online not a proper Jewish version?
Note that it says young woman,not virgin?
The hebrew word used here is Almah which means young women..The word for Virgin is Bethulah..Isiah knows the proper use of the words?almah/bethulah because he uses the word for virgin,Bethulah quite a few times in this book The Immanuel prophecy--in context.

The setting is the Syro-Ephraimite war (ca. 734 B.C.). Wicked King Ahaz of Judah was frantic about Ephraim (another name for the northern kingdom, Israel) and Damascus (capital of Syria), which were plotting a preemptive strike. Isaiah enters, offering a sign. Ahaz demurs. Isaiah storms at him for his lack of faith and then provides a sign anyway: A male child would be born. Before this child is old enough to know to "refuse evil and choose the good," Assyria would lay waste both Samaria and Damascus (7:16 ). [This sub-prophecy, in fact, came true in 2 Kings 16:9 ; 17:5-6 .] Then, to punish Ahaz, Assyria itself, with Egypt, would arise as a far greater threat.

Think about this. If Ahaz was concerned with an imminent attack from Samaria and Syria, why offer a sign that would not occur for seven centuries? To Ahaz this would be no sign at all. Also, if the Immanuel child was God incarnate, how could Isaiah speak of a time when Immanuel would not know enough to choose good over evil? What about divine omniscience? Note also the striking parallel between verses 7:16 and 8:4 . Here is Isaiah prophesying almost identically about both children. The more closely you look, the more difficult to deny that these two are identical. You can hardly blame evangelicals for seeing a special significance in the name Immanu'el, Hebrew for "God with us," but such language and imagery was right at home in the world of old Jewish nomenclature, where every other proper name seemed a reminder of God's presence. Thus we have Isaiah, which means "God's help"; Michael , "Like unto God"; Israel," "Striving with God"; Elihu, "He is my God"; Adonijah , "Yahweh Lord"; and a host of others.


Ahaz is the one being spoken too The child is hezekiah
 
salmoneous said:
I think the words on the paper are pretty clear - if cutting off body parts will prevent you from sinning, you should do so. Speaking as a guy, I can say without question that plucking out my eyes would cut down on my sinning (going by the lust in heart = adultery rule).

And yet, I'm 100% on your side here. You've used your God given brain to come to the conclusion that cutting off body parts in not what God wants us to do.

To me, that's exactly the task that has been laid out for us. We haven't been given a clear, cut-and-dried rulebook. We are supposed to use our brains and try and understand what we should and shouldn't to; what we should and shouldn't believe.

But as a result, we aren't all going to find the same answers. And since God set the whole thing up this way, I don't think we are all supposed to find the same answers. Which is why I find it sad when one group of Christians tells another that they aren't "real" Christians because they have come to a different answer.

I do really agree with you on this. I believe a lot is purposefully vague or hard to understand because it is supposed to be a message to you personally. I don't believe God intended for us to use the Bible as a tool for judging others, he intended for us to use it as a tool for helping to know what He is trying to tell us individually. I also believe that it is good for believers of the Bible to discuss issues (meaning discuss as really listening and considering what others have to say) to gain more insight into meanings of things.

I personally don't think it matters in the end that one denomination may believe that a woman can preach while other denominations may not, or that one believes we should knock on doors to evangelize and others believe that we should witness as our life being a good example, etc, etc....I honestly think all of that is just what God is telling those people to do in THEIR lives and these trivial issues are not what makes you a Christian.
 
Amity 3 said:
when did that supposedly happen? why am I never confronted by satan?


Matthew 4

The Temptation of Jesus

1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "

7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "

8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

10Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "

11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.


This is from my church's website concerning what we believe:

We believe there is a devil, called Satan.
We believe that Satan is a real person, that he was created, that he originally lived in heaven but was cast out of heaven when he rebelled against God. He is totally sinful, deceptive, powerful, and we believe that he is the leader of a vast host of evil spirits who seek to keep unsaved people lost, and to divide and deceive individual Christians. We believe that Christ defeated Satan at the cross and that the Christian has authority and power over him now, through the Lord Jesus Christ. We also believe that Satan will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at the end of the age.
Isaiah 14:12-17 • Ezekiel 28:11-19 • Ephesians 6:12 • Genesis 3:11 • Cor. 11:14 Revelation 12:11

http://www.oakwoodbaptist.org/pages/WhatWeBelieve.html
 
Didn't want to put Jenny's whole quote in here. Thanks Jenny, that gives me something to check on. Yes Almah means young woman or maid or of marrying age, but it also in scripture was not used to determine virginity that I can see. I do know it is used in instances of marrying age like Rebecca, at the well for Isaac. Interesting that the same term applies to Rebecca as in the Isaiah scripture. I will research the Hezekiah thing. Thanks again!
 
Joyce Kingkade said:
Didn't want to put Jenny's whole quote in here. Thanks Jenny, that gives me something to check on. Yes Almah means young woman or maid or of marrying age, but it also in scripture was not used to determine virginity that I can see. I do know it is used in instances of marrying age like Rebecca, at the well for Isaac. Interesting that the same term applies to Rebecca as in the Isaiah scripture. I will research the Hezekiah thing. Thanks again!
An Almah(young women) may be a virgin, but she does not have to be a virgin..Does that make sense? Someone who was 18 would be an Almah ,whether she was married or a virgin.
 
JennyMominRI said:
I know most of you have beendown this road with me before,butb Just to reiterate,Jews and Christias do not have the same Messianic prophecies...Just for one example there is no Virgin Birth Prophecy in tha Tanakh and the verses about the suffereing servant arenot viewed as messianic as the jewsh bible identifies the suffering servant as the people Isreal...And justfor one more. Jews don't view Satan as beng in the Genesisstory at all..The serpent is just a serpent

He was really a smart serpent! Smarter than Adam and Eve. He got them to lose the their place in the garden and all. I know not obeying God separated them from Him, but how did the serpent know what to tempt them with? Can you point me in the direction to learn more from the Judaic viewpoint?
 
JennyMominRI said:
An Almah(young women) may be a virgin, but she does not have to be a virgin..Does that make sense? Someone who was 18 would be an Almah ,whether she was married or a virgin.

:thumbsup2 Thanks!
 
Joyce Kingkade said:
He was really a smart serpent! Smarter than Adam and Eve. He got them to lose the their place in the garden and all. I know not obeying God separated them from Him, but how did the serpent know what to tempt them with? Can you point me in the direction to learn more from the Judaic viewpoint?
Well,you would need a Chumash...Torah with commentary or access to the Talmud to get the midrash.Satan is just not of any importance in Judaism,so you won'tfind much about him
..Maybe the Jewish view of Satan will help

Here is a bit about the Jewish view of Satan, as opposed to the Christian devil. Again, Judaism has no devil, there is no embodiment of evil who tempts us, as in Christianity. The Jewish view is very different than that portrayed by Christains. I hope this will be clear by the end of this post.

First of all, the Hebrew word satan (sin-tet-nun sofit) means an adversary or accuser. It is used this way in Numbers 22:22. "And G-d’s anger was kindled because he went; and the angel of the L-rd stood in the way as an *adversary* against him...." The word marked with *'s and translated as adversary is satan (actually l'satan, l' being a prefix that in the context gives the meaning "as"). Likewise in Numbers 22:32, part of the same story about Bilaam.

In I Samuel 29:4. "And the princes of the Philistines were angry with him; and the princes of the Philistines said to him, Make this fellow return, that he may go back to his place which you have appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an *adversary* to us; for how should he reconcile himself to his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?" Agian, the word translated as an adversary is satan. Later, in II Samuel 19:23. "And David said, What have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah, that you should this day be *adversaries* to me?..." Again the word is satan and is translated as adversary. I could contiue through the Tanach with this. In each case, the word satan is translated as adversary.

Now, there is the term ha'satan, meaning the adversary. It is used to indicate a definite adversary. It is used in this way in the book of Zecharaih. Zecharia 3:1-2, for example, is sometimes translated as "And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the L-RD, and *Satan* standing at his right hand to thwart him. And the L-RD said to Satan, The L-RD rebukes you, O *Satan;* the L-RD that has chosen Jerusalem rebukes you. Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" The word translated here as Satan is ha'satan. In other translations, this is translated as the adversary. In the historical context of the prophet, it is used to avoid using the name of the true adversary who was trying to keep the Jews from rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem. The adversary was the Samaritans and a highly placed official in the Persian government. In order to avoid reprisals, Zechariah uses the term "the adversary" or "the accusor" (as the Jews were accused of building the Temple in order to rebell). Now, later in Jewish history, this was interpreted in another, somewhat metaphorical level, as if a prosecuting angel of the heavenly court were accusing Joshua ha-Kohen (the priest), and not the Samaritains that the highly placed Persian official.

The only other occurance of ha'satan is in the book of Job. The book, first of all, is one of the Writtings. It is one inspired Jews attempt to understand why bad things happen to good people. He writes a story about Job's suffering in order to explore the suffering of righteous people in general. The conculusion of his book, the moral of the story, is that only G-d knows why good people sometimes suffer. Satan in this book is a literary tool. That being said, out of this book arose the aggadic (kind of like legendary--there are many legends written in the Talmud to teach a lesson of one kind or another, but are not literally true) idea of Satan as the prosecuting attorney of G-d. Satan here is completely obedient to G-d and he NEVER rebells against G-d. He has a roll just as does the angel of death, in G-d's plan. His job is to act in the heavenly court as the prosecutor of those who recently died. He is in no way evil, he just has a job that some might find distasteful. That is the aggadic idea of Satan, which no Jew is obligated to take litterally, but we are supposed to learn the lesson that all of our actions will be known to G-d and that we will be judged.

The adversary in Zechariah was a very real, very human one, the adversary in Job is a teaching tool, as is the Satan of the aggadah. Humans have within them a yetzer hara and a yetzer hatov, a bad impulse and a good impulse. We need no outside, powerful, ultimate evil force to tempt us, the impulse lies within ourselves. By following G-d's will, we can overcome this temptation. There is no power to rival G-d. All angels in Judaism are obedient servants of G-d.

This is in contrast to the Christian idea of the "devil" and their "satan". In Christianity, "satan, aka the devil" is viewed as the "god of this world". He has enormous power and he opposes G-d. He is seen as a "fallen angel".

This brings me to the explaination of "Lucifer". Some say that Isaiah 14:12. "How are you fallen from heaven, O bright star [or shining one], son of the morning [or son of dawn]! how are you cut down to the ground, you who ruled the nations!" is about the "devil". Part of this is due to the fact that the term bright star or shining one is translated in Latin to lucifer, which means shining one. Now, the context of the verse and a bit of knowledge of history reviels that this is about the Babylonian empire. One of the main dieties of Babylon was "Ishtar", who was the "god" who was the morning star. Shining one, son of dawn is the morning star. The prophet was avoiding the use of the name of the not-god Ishtar. Reading verse 4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here. There is no Lucifer, no devil in the Tanach, but there are many, many adversaries and accusers of the Jewish people
 
Joyce, please forgive me the long cut and paste posts..My hands really hurt when I type for a long time
 
JennyMominRI said:
Joyce, please forgive me the long cut and paste posts..My hands really hurt when I type for a long time

Oh, sweetie, I am so blessed you take the time to answer! I just love researching this. Thank you for helping!
 
KikiFan said:
And as I said, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just trying to show that for every bible quote that is thrown out there there can be more then one possible interpretation.

Well said. I personally have to really wonder about the people who think there is only one "true" translation. It gets even worse when they all but tell others theirs is wrong rather than just accept each person believes in different translations.
 
it's been a while since I've read this thread. It's taken on a whole new life, evolution, prayer, etc.


Going back to the posts about prayer, I credit God answering prayer for my dad being alive today.

In the 1980's he had a brain aneurysm. The surgeons took my brother and I in a room and told us that my dad had to have surgery or he was going to die for sure. If he didn't have the surgery there was 100% chance of death. If he had surgery, there was a slim chance he'd live. His arteries were "hard" from all his years of smoking, they were giving him meds to fix that by IV, but as they were waiting for his arteries to get "better" he was losing alot of blood into his head. The doctors believed that if he survived the surgery there was a very good chance he would be permanently brain damaged to some extent.

He had the surgery 3 days later. He came out of surgery just fine. To this day he has no brain damage, he is healthier today than he has ever been in his life! He beat all the odds stacked against him, by the grace of God.
 
So is this guy paying people to bump this thread. Never fails to get bumped every few days. :rotfl2: ;)
 
Yup. And boy, I don't know how all the non-Christians ever survive medical procedures! You never hear about a Jew, Muslim, athiest, etc ever having a fortunate recovery. :teeth:

It's wonderful when anyone can recover against the odds... but James Randi has survived some pretty harrowing health problems recently (he's getting on in years) and he certainly wasn't asking or accepting any prayers.

Lovethattink, I hope you give the doctors who saved your Dad's life some credit too. :) It's heartbreaking to read the stories of people who refuse a doctor's care and rely only on prayer.
 












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