What's fair?

[tlh0726]

I'm sorry you are going through this. It's so sad. I believe in karma. I think this is a great post (not because you are struggling) but it really sheds light on another side of things. Posts like this always make me want to contribute more to my retirement so my kids don't have to worry about this.

Thanks ccgirl.
Between my MIL passing in January and everything we have been going through with DH siblings and now with my mother, we have learned alot of what to do and not to do to our children.

OP
Please get whatever agreement you have between all of you in writing as far as the future expenses your mother may occur and who is responsible for them and why.
Things like this tend to bring the worst out in people.

 

[Kay1]

I agree.

And what about the OP's kids? They already have gone through a divorce. They have had to move. Give up their hobbies and sports. I am guessing mom is already working at home somewhat, teachers have an endless amount of work. Now, she is supposed to get a part-time job and spend more time away from her kids?

I am really surprised with all of the posts about "we made better choices and have more money and shouldn't be penalized for it." I hope life continues to be good for all of you and you are never faced with tough financial choices. And if you are, that you remember your great words of wisdom.

I strongly agree with you. OP did make the choice to have children (which is not exactly wild or crazy) and I say they should come first. This is a family problem and the children are family members, too. If anything OP should dig into other arrangements for her mother - something the mother can afford.

The mother knew all her life she would some day become too elderly to care for herself. Did she have some plan that no one knows about? Did she choose not to save for her old age, or did something happen she couldn't predict?

OP, you really need to read on caregiver boards and try to find alternative arrangements that your entire family - mother included - can afford. You should not take away from your children who are the only ones unable to make any important choices. (Btw, you could look into setting up a Heloc so she could pay her own way.)

 

[horseshowmom]

Yeah, I have always let him get to me. He's always had a way of making me feel bad about myself, ever since we were kids. Brother #2 is telling me to ignore him as well.

I did call and talk to him (#1) tonight, and told him that I will go down to mom's house over Veteran's Day weekend and start going through all of her stuff. It's a task that my brothers both dread, but I'm really good at it and don't mind doing it. He won't let up on the 1/3 deal, but I'm trying to ignore him.

Honey, you can only do what you can do. Brother #1 is only paying his third. It is none of his business where the other 2/3 comes from. Listen to brother #2. When/if brother #1 starts in again, politely discontinue the conversation.

 

[Minnie_me]

Thanks for all of the responses. Unfortunately, I don't have the time/energy to quote and paste all of the questions that deserve answers, so I'll do the best I can to answer some of them here:

~ Concerning Brother #1: Although his wife is disabled and receives SSI, she is able to take care of herself. Brother does not have to take care of her in any way. Concerning his ability to pay for mom's care.......he has bragged to me in many emails that he is financially secure and that caring for mom is no big deal to him financially. As far as the fact that they do not take vacations or purchase luxury items, they are extremely frugal. She hates travel, has some phobias/anxieties that prevent her from flying (and even from driving over bridges). They are very simple people. They are happy with simple things. They married later in life and chose not to have children. And yes, he is the brother who will be taking Mom in at some point (at least that's the plan) due to his proximity to good hospitals/doctors, as well as the fact that his wife is home all day and can keep Mom company (they have an inlaw apartment, so it wouldn't be constant togetherness). I have no problem at all with him getting all of the money from the house (and that's all there is as far as "inheritance" goes). Caring for the elderly can be very expensive.

~ Concerning my getting a part-time job: I teach young children, and do not have the expertise to tutor in areas where tutoring is in high demand. I have made the decision not to work part time, because my ex doesn't have the girls as much as many divorced dads have their kids, so my girls would be alone while I'm gone. We've been through a very traumatic divorce (he abandoned us for a girl who is young enough to be my daughter, and has basically chosen her and her children over us), an upsetting move, and I feel that they need me to be HOME. We all know how important it is in those tween/teen years to be there for your kids and to know what's going on with them.

~ Concerning my other "choices", I am pretty surprised at the rude speculation done about my lifestyle, while at the same time people speculate that my brother is some sort of saint. While I was married, we went on two vacations: one to Washington, DC (driving distance, 2 night stay, all free museums), and one "once in a lifetime" trip to Disney World. Since then, my DDs and I have done nothing but a few day trips and visits to relatives/friends. I have never had a new car in my life. We all pack our lunches every day, and have never had manicures/pedicures/salon haircuts. My daughters have given up horseback riding and dancing lessons, and even school trips (not field trips, but overnight trips) due to lack of finances.

Brother #2 has told me not to worry so much about all of this, but it has made me feel terribly guilty (and I must say that many of your posts made me feel even worse -- I don't mind the advice, but the "shame on you" attitudes were a little too much).

 

[Aliceacc]

IBrother #1: Manager of a good business, makes pretty good money. Has no children. House is paid for. Wife is disabled, collects SSI. They don't do vacations, don't have any luxury items, so are able to afford helping out with this expense.
.

My guess is that this explains his response. His wife is disabled, and they don't have any luxury items or do vacations... my guess is that he's concerned about his wife's condition deteriorating and needing money to pay for her care.

I'm sorry, I have no answers for you. I'm sorry to hear of your mom's condition, and of what it's doing to your family.

 

[brunette8706]

OP,
I did not read the whole thread.. only the OP post.

I get that you don't have the money to pay.
But your thinking is wrong and prob why you are in the financial situation you are in.

This is how you come across : Poor me, my brothers make more money then me so they should have to pay for more things. I have a little they have a lot so in turn what they have should be taken from them and I should be left alone.

This is what you need to do to make your life better: Ask your siblings why they are successful, take advices from them and build wealth. Get yourself and your children into a situation where a few 100 a month doesn't break the bank.. you all deserve it.

So now you just read what i responded and your pretty angry... " this person doesn't understand... I had this happen to me , and they happen to me and my brothers were lucky because of this , and lucky because of that, and I'm a single mom.. etc.. "

Its all just a story you tell yourself so you can put yourself down and not have to make things better.

You asked whats fair... Its fair that you all split it equally.

*
GREAT ADVICE!

I'm also thinking why not have each brother pay $250.00 each and you (the OP) pay $100.00!? At least that could be your "obligation" based on a sliding scale based on each siblings finances...

Brunette

 

[walkdmc]

Nevermind. Once again I posted before reading all the responses.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[delmar411]

What's fair is that mom should of had a LTC plan in place before this occurred and she should be covering her own expenses. That's the fair version.

There is no legal responsibility for the OP to cover any expense of her mother. Her mother is her own person. Morally, I'd send whatever I could and let my brother know what I thought of him and his attitude. I'd try to do more service type help, and I think going through the house is a great start for the OP, instead of worrying about the financial part.

OP, you need to worry about YOUR children. Help them get through this rough patch and also make sure that your future is secure and that you won't become a burden to your children. I'd make that a financial priority over sending money that you don't have to spare to your brothers.

 

[kandb]

OP Don't worry about paying the same amount as your brothers. They are both financial stable and can afford to help out your mom. Shame on all the people who are telling this woman she should pay something she cannot afford and she should get a second job (are you kidding me? With 2 children at home). These are your brothers, not some business partners. Let them pay and don't feel bad for a minute. Good luck.

PS If brother #1 keeps bringing up that you should pay your third, just say in a stern voice "Don't bring this issue up again, I cannot afford this money. Period."

 

[nunzia]

Thanks for all of the responses. Unfortunately, I don't have the time/energy to quote and paste all of the questions that deserve answers, so I'll do the best I can to answer some of them here:

~ Concerning Brother #1: Although his wife is disabled and receives SSI, she is able to take care of herself. Brother does not have to take care of her in any way. Concerning his ability to pay for mom's care.......he has bragged to me in many emails that he is financially secure and that caring for mom is no big deal to him financially. As far as the fact that they do not take vacations or purchase luxury items, they are extremely frugal. She hates travel, has some phobias/anxieties that prevent her from flying (and even from driving over bridges). They are very simple people. They are happy with simple things. They married later in life and chose not to have children. And yes, he is the brother who will be taking Mom in at some point (at least that's the plan) due to his proximity to good hospitals/doctors, as well as the fact that his wife is home all day and can keep Mom company (they have an inlaw apartment, so it wouldn't be constant togetherness). I have no problem at all with him getting all of the money from the house (and that's all there is as far as "inheritance" goes). Caring for the elderly can be very expensive.

~ Concerning my getting a part-time job: I teach young children, and do not have the expertise to tutor in areas where tutoring is in high demand. I have made the decision not to work part time, because my ex doesn't have the girls as much as many divorced dads have their kids, so my girls would be alone while I'm gone. We've been through a very traumatic divorce (he abandoned us for a girl who is young enough to be my daughter, and has basically chosen her and her children over us), an upsetting move, and I feel that they need me to be HOME. We all know how important it is in those tween/teen years to be there for your kids and to know what's going on with them.

~ Concerning my other "choices", I am pretty surprised at the rude speculation done about my lifestyle, while at the same time people speculate that my brother is some sort of saint. While I was married, we went on two vacations: one to Washington, DC (driving distance, 2 night stay, all free museums), and one "once in a lifetime" trip to Disney World. Since then, my DDs and I have done nothing but a few day trips and visits to relatives/friends. I have never had a new car in my life. We all pack our lunches every day, and have never had manicures/pedicures/salon haircuts. My daughters have given up horseback riding and dancing lessons, and even school trips (not field trips, but overnight trips) due to lack of finances.

Brother #2 has told me not to worry so much about all of this, but it has made me feel terribly guilty (and I must say that many of your posts made me feel even worse -- I don't mind the advice, but the "shame on you" attitudes were a little too much).

Well, since you are a Budget board poster you should know you'll get the gamut Still..as I said before, this is much more of a BROTHER problem than just a $$ one. The deal between Brother #2 and you is all you need to worry about. Since Brother #1 is only paying his $200 and the arrangement between you and brother #2 is working then YOU need to let go of the guilt and not let brother #1 in there. Still, as I said before the RESPONSIBILITY for a third is yours and hopefully you will pay back brother #2, and doing extra things like going through the house counts as well. Still..I understand you need to be with your kids during this rough time, but there are always ways to make extra money here and there. If nothing else, I'd keep track of what your brother has paid for you and make sure he gets paid back if it takes years and years. A small outside job won't hurt the kids if they are old enough to be left alone a bit..they will see how important you think obligations are and learn from your example. Just a balance between no extra work and too much.
But really..lose the guilt and refuse to take crap from brother #1.

 

[gandycat]

First of all, lots of hugs. I'm a hospice social worker and deal with situations like these all of the time and know first hand from my own parents how hard it can be. Is it fair that you pay your $200? Sure it is. Is it feasable for you right now? No, it's not. It's also not fair for your brother to assign you an amount to pay and then when you can't, get upset about it. Like other people have said, if your brother who can afford it can help you out, leave the other brother out of it. You are working hard and doing your best in a very difficult situation I agree about contacting your local Area on Aging (or Dept of Aging). Where I am, the income level is $8000 total and that includes life insurance. Different states take the house into account and others don't. It's worth having an assessment done. Even is she doesn't qualify for all of the services, she may qualify for cost sharing where they might pay a portion of the cost for inhome care. My other suggestion is to utilize her neighbors and any family close by that you trust to fill in when the Aide isn't there. And for the future, when she deteriorates to the point that she has end stage dementia (the guidelines are that she can't walk, talk coherently or feed herself), ask the doc about a referral to hospice. Lots of people think that hospice is only for cancer patients but it is for any terminal disease and the person doesn't have to be on their death bed. The doctor can write a script if they believe that the person will die from the disease within 6 months (it's not exact science, they use their best judgement).

I have four brothers and generally it's two of us that end up taking care of our mom. Luckily she has some resources but it won't last forever. Money isn't the issue for her at the moment, it's the amount of time we spend taking her shopping, to the doctor's, pretty much everywhere she needs to go b/c she doesn't drive, fixing things around the house, supporting her emotionally since my dad just passed away.....I could go on and on. Sometimes I feel resentful that just two of us get the brunt of things but that resentment gets me nowhere. I do for her b/c I love her and b/c I feel it's my responsibility, to repay her for all she and my dad have given me. That's what I try to remember as it's me for the 10th time in a row who has to go to her doctor appt. Money is an easy thing to break into 'fair' amounts. I agree with other people who said to help her in other ways that you can. You being there with her is much more valuable than a stranger who gets paid (and b/c I feel like on this board you have to explain everything you say, lol, I'm not saying anyone should feel guilty about having in home care or that they won't care for her well). Something I say to every family I work with is that there are no do-overs. Do what you feel you need to do for your mom so that you have no regrets, we don't get a second chance. Good luck to your mom and family. Dementia is a terrible disease and so hard on families.

 

[Marionnette]

Sorry, OP, but the fair thing is to pay your 1/3 share.

How is it "fair" to brother #1 that brother #2 picks up your share of the burden just because you cry poor mouth? He has financial concerns, too.

I have many brothers and while I can speculate how well off their finances are, I have no access to their budget and bank account to verify those suspicions. One brother in particular is the first to open his wallet and pay for everyone at dinner. Yet in private conversations, I've been told that he is still struggling to pay off a ton of debt that his ex ran up before they divorced. He would be the first to tell the family that he could "easily afford" to take in Mom if the time comes. The truth is probably very different. But I don't know for sure. His actions say one thing and our conversations indicate another.

What I do know is that taking in an elderly parent with advancing dementia is not an easy task. You are deluded if you think that having brother #1's disabled wife to keep your mother company is going to be enough to provide her with the care she will need. They have offered to take on a significant burden that the sale of her house and her SS check will not even begin to make up for. It is both physically and emotionally exhausting to deal with this type of situation all day, every day. You should feel blessed that your brother #1 has stepped up and taken on the responsibility. There would be a huge argument in a lot families as to who "has to take Mom in".

In my opinion, you sacrifice for your parents. They sacrificed their wants and needs in order to provide for yours. If you have a daughter who is almost the same age as your former husband's girlfriend, then you have someone who is old enough to stay home at night to watch her sister while you pick up a second job. Stop making excuses. I can see why brother #1 might be a little bit upset with the situation. You seem to have plenty of reasons for why you can't do more to help out instead of trying to find ways that you can.

 

[RadioFanatic]

Did OP ever say why they aren't using medicare for help and putting her in a nursing home? I didn't see an answer. I also didn't see any answer as to how this whole situation came to being in the first place - who decided this is how it was going to be, why an aide v. nursing home, who was chosen and how the payments were ? I would love a response to these two questions.

And I don't agree with PP who says that it's a child's responsiblity to sacrifice bc the parent did for them. Parent chose to have them not vice versa.

Now I'm in the other brother situation. Have financially helped IL's too many times to count over the years, paying for their poor decision making, most recently bc FIL had lung transplant that dh and I seemed to pay for all incidentals. SIL on the other hand, no help at all and living with her 2 year old at their home for free with free child care. Dh and I are very bitter about SIL and her freeloading and lack of assistance; and have vowed to no longer help the IL's as we have our own family to take care of.

HOWEVER, I think OP's situation is VERY different from SIL. She IS trying to make her own life as good as it can be - she is NOT freeloading on anyone, trying to do what's best for her family and you can't bleed a stone. To suggest she take even more time away from her kids to get a second job is absolutely ludicrous. I would hope her mother would never want her to do that-and if she was a good mother, she wouldn't. Good luck OP - tell Brother to mind his own darn business.

 

[Marionnette]

And I don't agree with PP who says that it's a child's responsiblity to sacrifice bc the parent did for them. Parent chose to have them not vice versa.

Seriously? Wow! I'll just say that I'm glad to be a part of a family that sees things so much differently than you do. Anything that my parents did for me was out of their love for me. Anything that I can do for them in their so-called golden years is also done out of love. Not a sense of obligation or responsibility.

 

[RadioFanatic]

Seriously? Wow! I'll just say that I'm glad to be a part of a family that sees things so much differently than you do. Anything that my parents did for me was out of their love for me. Anything that I can do for them in their so-called golden years is also done out of love. Not a sense of obligation or responsibility.

And I agree with you to an extent - and why we have helped the IL's so much over the years - but I'm not going to sacrifice MY CHILD to help them - and essentially, that's what the OP would be doing - sacrificing money needed for her children or time, i.e. getting a second job, with her children - she should not do either. And also for us, I'm tired of sacrificing things for us bc of poor choices the IL's made - which could also be the situation with OP's mother. And these are the two reasons we are stopping assisting the IL's.

 

[JoiseyMom]

Wow, you are way off base, Why should the brothers have to pay more?? If I read right OP mom is moving in with what you have called the selfish brother when she gets worse.

It really bothers me when people have the attitude well they can afford it let them deal with it or let them pay they have it I don't Entitlement big time

Why am I off base? The OP doesn't have the money! She can't afford it...should she sell her body or all her things for 200/month?? She doesn't have it. I know for myself, I woudln't want my kids going into debt for me or selling things.

 

[Marionnette]

And I agree with you to an extent - and why we have helped the IL's so much over the years - but I'm not going to sacrifice MY CHILD to help them - and essentially, that's what the OP would be doing - sacrificing money needed for her children or time, i.e. getting a second job, with her children - she should not do either. And also for us, I'm tired of sacrificing things for us bc of poor choices the IL's made - which could also be the situation with OP's mother. And these are the two reasons we are stopping assisting the IL's.

While I understand your point, I have to say that setting an example for your children is also important. When I drop everything to drive out to my parents' home because one or the other is in the hospital (one time both!), the kids don't regard it as me sacrificing them for the sake of Mom or Dad. They understand that love isn't parceled out equally at all times. If one child was in the hospital, you can bet that I would leave the other two to be at #1's bedside. And I would hope that if I need any of them someday, that they will do the same for me.

 

[RadioFanatic]

While I understand your point, I have to say that setting an example for your children is also important. When I drop everything to drive out to my parents' home because one or the other is in the hospital (one time both!), the kids don't regard it as me sacrificing them for the sake of Mom or Dad. They understand that love isn't parceled out equally at all times. If one child was in the hospital, you can bet that I would leave the other two to be at #1's bedside. And I would hope that if I need any of them someday, that they will do the same for me.

But, a job would be something that OP would continually have to sacrifice time ALL THE TIME as the $200 is required every month. The things you cite as an example do not happen all the time (I hope!) or if they do, are emergencies. And I understand that, we just recently sacrificed my three year old's week at the beach to spend that week in Cleveland while my FIL had a lung transplant - as in literally, after getting to the beach for one day, packing up in the middle of the night, driving 9 hours to cleveland so my poor three year old woke up knowing he fell asleep at the beach and now having no clue where he was. and having to spend a week at a boring hospital instead of the amusement park, boating, and beaching he was promised -and he was amazing about it. BUT, I will not continually sacrifice things for him on an ongoing basis for my parents or my IL's.

I go back to what you yourself said earlier:

"In my opinion, you sacrifice for your parents. They sacrificed their wants and needs in order to provide for yours."

I'm not providing for my son's needs if I'm continually sacrificing things he deserves and/or needs bc I'm having to provide for parents. And that's what OP would be doing.

 

[Motherofboys]

Seriously? Wow! I'll just say that I'm glad to be a part of a family that sees things so much differently than you do. Anything that my parents did for me was out of their love for me. Anything that I can do for them in their so-called golden years is also done out of love. Not a sense of obligation or responsibility.

But apparently your siblings deserve no love or compassion from you? Were so many people here really raised with an "anything for mom/dad but my siblings are on their own" mentality?

In my family we all help each other when we can, regardless of whether or not we "owe it" to the other person. And my kids are being raised the same way. I presented this scenario to them last night and they all had the same response "Why WOULDN'T I help my brother if I could???"

I'm sure Brother 1 wouldn't be raising such a fuss if Brother 2 offered to pay the whole $600, he's just miffed because he feels that his sister is getting something he's not and it's not fair.

Who's idea was it to give Brother 1 the whole inheritance based on a promise of future care for mom? That is pretty risky as there is no way to know how long mom will live or if she will ever move in with him.

OP, I would really think about seeing an elder care attorney - it seems like there are several issues here that need some professional guidance.

 

[barbarabini]

Just a possibility - any hope of finding an aide for less money, or a live-in arrangement, trading rent for home health aide services plus some money?

Also, is there adult day care in your area, sometimes that is covered by insurance, or through a county program? Maybe she would qualify there for 2 days and that could lower the health aide cost.


or how about a reverse mortgage on the mother's house, to cover the care that way no sibling has to should the cost and ultimately, it is taken out of their prospective inheritance?