What were these teens thinking?!

[maleficent1959]

For the record I DO condone underage drinking. Teaching kids to respect and understand alcohol is the best way to prevent dangerous "binge" drinking. Let them have a glass of red wine with dinner sometimes, maybe a beer with dad while watching the game. You can't expect kids to ever drink responsibly if you never teach them how.

I'm in agreement with you on this. I'd let my kids have a little wine with dinner. I don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't let their friends though.

But I'd still be unhappy with a child that chose to drink alcohol in a car (violating open bottle laws BTW) on the way to prom for a school with a zero tolerance policy.

 

[jodifla]

Yes, I prosecuted all laws equally in the complaints that were filed in the courts I worked in. Remember, except in rare instances, DA's Offices aren't involved in active investigation of crimes as they are happening/before arrest.

You keep mentioning this "living in sin" law in Michigan, and quite frankly, I'm not sure why. To me, it's one of those dumb archaic laws on the books, sort of like the ones where you can't ride donkeys on Sundays (as an example). Very rarely are opposite sex and living together statutes prosecuted ANYWHERE in the U.S. As long as consenting adults are involved, most people see it as a victimless crime-including cops, prosecutors, and judges.

I don't think you can say that alcohol violations are totally victimless crimes in every instance. Sometimes, yes, they are. But most of the time, the POTENTIAL to harm oneself or others is there. So I don't think that alcohol violation laws are either dumb or archaic. Hence the difference.

And I don't think these girls' lives were ruined. Maybe the judge had a hand in preventing the girls themselves from ruining them. I personally think that they are fools and have learned little from their mistakes, unfortunately.

Here is why I bring up the "living in sin" thing: It's against the law here.

So why are not couples punished, but these girls who were not drinking and driving (so they weren't hurting anyone but potentially themselves) are?Couples living in sin break laws, not punished, but teens taking a sip of alcohol, punished to the max.

It would be easy to argue that unmarried couples having children damage their kids by not providing them with the benefits that children of married couples have, for example. So much for your theory of totally victimless crimes.

Also, many of us saw firsthand that we could go to high school, drink, and not have any problems. I went through college, got a job, have a nice house, etc. Yet another reason not to take this law any more seriously than the living in sin law.

It's all political.

 

[jodifla]

I'm in agreement with you on this. I'd let my kids have a little wine with dinner. I don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't let their friends though.

But I'd still be unhappy with a child that chose to drink alcohol in a car (violating open bottle laws BTW) on the way to prom for a school with a zero tolerance policy.

The way I read the laws in Michigan, you'd be a lawbreaker here. Not even parents can serve their kids alcohol here, unless it's a religious ceremony. Good thing you live in the Forbidden Mountain.

 

[cardaway]

But let's not kid ourselves and think the 30 day sentence was about anything other than a bruised ego and a crusade.

I have respect for what Judge Martone has been able to accomplish but I think his methods need some serious reevaluation.

Exactly. I think we need to look past the one case and ask if we want judges doing this. It could just as easily be a different crusade, once that you may disagree with.

 

[JimB.]

If it wasn't illegal there would be less incentive to binge on it anyway.

With all due respect, this is pure horse poop.

I also am a graduate of UF. I attended school there when the drinking age in Florida was 18. The extent of alcohol abuse during my time there was incredible, especially on Frat & Sorority Row. The "alcohol free" dorms were not far behind.

Yet another reason not to take this law any more seriously than the living in sin law.

Except for the one little fact that "living in sin" will not get you wrapped around a telephone pole at high speed. It's an apples vs. oranges arguement & is simplistic & irrelevant.

 

[maleficent1959]

Here is why I bring up the "living in sin" thing: It's against the law here.

So why are not couples punished, but these girls who were not drinking and driving (so they weren't hurting anyone but potentially themselves) are?Couples living in sin break laws, not punished, but teens taking a sip of alcohol, punished to the max.

It would be easy to argue that unmarried couples having children damage their kids by not providing them with the benefits that children of married couples have, for example. So much for your theory of totally victimless crimes.

Also, many of us saw firsthand that we could go to high school, drink, and not have any problems. I went through college, got a job, have a nice house, etc. Yet another reason not to take this law any more seriously than the living in sin law.

It's all political.

Now, I'm just curious and not being snippy. Were you ever caught drinking underage and taken into court? If so, what was the punishment you received?

See, to me the issue isn't whether or not the laws are Draconian or politically or emotionally driven. I think that would make a great thread though. What gets in my craw here is that essentially the girls violated school policy, got caught by the school and were brought up on charges because they violated state law, but are arguing that they shouldn't be punished. School officials decided to follow school policy in meting out the punishment, while the policemen at the prom arrested them because of the state violation.

They weren't drinking in some friends basement or at a field party. They showed up at friggin' prom with people who were visibly drunk. And they themselves drank enough to score on the Breathalyzer. What did they think would happen? And when they violated the terms of their sentence, if they had just been drinking in a dorm room or at a party the judge probably would have never found out. But they put it on the Web, and he did, and so the second sentence. By making it so public they run the risk of the judge discovering it. Again, what did they think would happen if he did find out they violated the sentence?

Now, as to your other point. If someone wants to put together a list of all the sexually active unmarried couples in Michigan to present for prosecution more power to them.

 

[goodeats]

Everyone agrees that drinking and driving is wrong. Nobody is disputing that.

But the fact is that increasing the drinking age does not really make it that much difficult to obtain. If high school kids can get it, then it's that much easier for 19 & 20 year olds to obtain.

Oh, and I don't think drinking in the back of the limo is the same as having an open container. If it was then there'd be a lot of newlyweds who should be arrested. I know my husband and I drank champagne in our limo on the way from our reception to our honeymoon hotel.

 

[maleficent1959]

The way I read the laws in Michigan, you'd be a lawbreaker here. Not even parents can serve their kids alcohol here, unless it's a religious ceremony. Good thing you live in the Forbidden Mountain.

Hey, my dinners are so good they might qualify as a religious experience.

 

[jodifla]

With all due respect, this is pure horse poop.

I also am a graduate of UF. I attended school there when the drinking age in Florida was 18. The extent of alcohol abuse during my time there was incredible, especially on Frat & Sorority Row. The "alcohol free" dorms were not far behind.



Except for the one little fact that "living in sin" will not get you wrapped around a telephone pole at high speed. It's an apples vs. oranges arguement & is simplistic & irrelevant.

These kids weren't drinking and driving, so how does that apply?

I certainly saw the abuse at UF. I don't think it gets any better to have it be illegal. Just drives it underground.

 

[Sandy V.]

Now, I'm just curious and not being snippy. Were you ever caught drinking underage and taken into court? If so, what was the punishment you received?

See, to me the issue isn't whether or not the laws are Draconian or politically or emotionally driven. I think that would make a great thread though. What gets in my craw here is that essentially the girls violated school policy, got caught by the school and were brought up on charges because they violated state law, but are arguing that they shouldn't be punished. School officials decided to follow school policy in meting out the punishment, while the policemen at the prom arrested them because of the state violation.

They weren't drinking in some friends basement or at a field party. They showed up at friggin' prom with people who were visibly drunk. And they themselves drank enough to score on the Breathalyzer. What did they think would happen? And when they violated the terms of their sentence, if they had just been drinking in a dorm room or at a party the judge probably would have never found out. But they put it on the Web, and he did, and so the second sentence. By making it so public they run the risk of the judge discovering it. Again, what did they think would happen if he did find out they violated the sentence?

Now, as to your other point. If someone wants to put together a list of all the sexually active unmarried couples in Michigan to present for prosecution more power to them.

Excellent post. Very good points.

 

[jodifla]

Now, I'm just curious and not being snippy. Were you ever caught drinking underage and taken into court? If so, what was the punishment you received?

See, to me the issue isn't whether or not the laws are Draconian or politically or emotionally driven. I think that would make a great thread though. What gets in my craw here is that essentially the girls violated school policy, got caught by the school and were brought up on charges because they violated state law, but are arguing that they shouldn't be punished. School officials decided to follow school policy in meting out the punishment, while the policemen at the prom arrested them because of the state violation.

They weren't drinking in some friends basement or at a field party. They showed up at friggin' prom with people who were visibly drunk. And they themselves drank enough to score on the Breathalyzer. What did they think would happen? And when they violated the terms of their sentence, if they had just been drinking in a dorm room or at a party the judge probably would have never found out. But they put it on the Web, and he did, and so the second sentence. By making it so public they run the risk of the judge discovering it. Again, what did they think would happen if he did find out they violated the sentence?

Now, as to your other point. If someone wants to put together a list of all the sexually active unmarried couples in Michigan to present for prosecution more power to them.

No, the drinking age was 18 when I was in school. Also, if you got caught drinking at 15 or 16 back then, it just wasn't the big deal it is today. In fact, we were fairly open about it.

The Web site the girls did was stupid. I might have had the language and the anger at the judge on a Web site, but not the pictures with anything alcoholic.

But the initial incident at the prom is what I have a problem with. I don't think the kids should have been pulled from dinner. In my book, it's illegal search and seizure. Then the school officials' decision to go after the kids when even the cop didn't want to, then to pull their NHS honors. One incident should not negate your whole high school career. An incident like that, and I graduated near the top of my class of almost 600, would have turned me completely against the system.

 

[Disney Doll]

One of the things that it seems (to me) to be lacking in many people nowadays is the concept of shame or embarassment when they do something wrong. Instead, they're the victim, filled with righteous indignation towards an authority figure who has the guts to give them "consequences". Sad.

This is one of the truest statements I have evr read on the DIS.

These same parents will be the ones wondering why their 30 year old can't hold down a job and is still lliving at home with Mommy & Daddy, and is a big loser.

Because Mommy & Daddy never let them suffer the consequences of their actions.

If I had done this, I'd have been lucky if the legal system got to me before my parents!

 

[perdidobay]

To quote Debbie Jean...

"Lesson #1: you CHOOSE your actions
Lesson #1: actions have consequences
................................................
They choose to show up drunk at a prom where the rule was zero tolerance for drinking...
They were asked if they drank and said yes...

read the two lesson lines above....

they showed up in court... the sentence was to stay away from booze, they then went about doing their best to drink and show themselves doing so ..over and over.....

read the two lesson lines above again.....

edited to add... the sadest thing about all of this is these kids have learned only to blame anybody but themselves.

 

[GEM]

If I had done this, I'd have been lucky if the legal system got to me before my parents!

Oh, heck yes! I would have been begging the judge to put me in jail where I would have been safe, because God help me when my momma showed up!!

Disney Doll, it all goes back to the line in your signature (which I have always loved and often quoted, here on the DIS and in real life) -

Prepare your child for the path, not the path for your child.

They did it, they knew it was illegal as well as against school policy, and then, when they got caught and punished, they didn't have the sense to apologize and learn from it. I have no sympathy at all for them.

 

[jodifla]

This is one of the truest statements I have evr read on the DIS.

These same parents will be the ones wondering why their 30 year old can't hold down a job and is still lliving at home with Mommy & Daddy, and is a big loser.

Because Mommy & Daddy never let them suffer the consequences of their actions.

If I had done this, I'd have been lucky if the legal system got to me before my parents!

So, if you're an underage drinker, you're automatically some sort of loser underachiever, too?

I don't think so.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by these responses. One can only assume all these folks never experimented with anything when they were underage. Because I'm sure no one on these boards would ever be a hypocrite.

 

[jodifla]

Now, as to your other point. If someone wants to put together a list of all the sexually active unmarried couples in Michigan to present for prosecution more power to them.

My point, which you and SandyV choose to ignore, is that you are picking and choosing which laws to enforce, thereby undercutting your argument that laws are laws and we must blindly follow them.

 

[maleficent1959]

I don't think that's what Disney Doll means, although she can certainly speak for herself.

When I read it, I figured she meant people like my next door neighbors who never taught their child that there are consequences to actions, whether good or bad, or to take responsibility for those decisions. So now they have a 34yo son who doesn't work and wakes up his neighbors with a sleeping baby at 4am to borrow $20 that he claims is to bail his friend out of jail (what kind of bail is that?). Of course, if he woke us instead of his parents he must have learned some kind of consequence along the way

 

[jodifla]

I don't think that's what Disney Doll means, although she can certainly speak for herself.

When I read it, I figured she meant people like my next door neighbors who never taught their child that there are consequences to actions, whether good or bad, or to take responsibility for those decisions. So now they have a 34yo son who doesn't work and wakes up his neighbors with a sleeping baby at 4am to borrow $20 that he claims is to bail his friend out of jail (what kind of bail is that?). Of course, if he woke us instead of his parents he must have learned some kind of consequence along the way

So, if I was an underage drinker, what lesson would my parents have learned??

I've never been in any trouble in my life. The only trouble would have been if I'd been arrested for underaged drinking.

 

[maleficent1959]

My point, which you and SandyV choose to ignore, is that you are picking and choosing which laws to enforce, thereby undercutting your argument that laws are laws and we must blindly follow them.

Whoa dude. I'm not picking and choosing which laws the law system of the State of Michigan are choosing to enforce. I am saying if you are enough of a dumb*** to break the law in front of cops don't cry when they arrest you.

And where did I say that laws are laws and we must blindly follow them? Again, my point is take responsibility when you are caught. I often knowingly break the speed limit. And I know that when I do so I run the risk of getting caught and paying a big fine and getting points on my license as well as upped insurance premiums. I've been caught, I've paid my fine, done my driver improvement course and gone on. I don't gripe to the cop that everyone is doing it and why didn't he stop the other 50 cars.

In fact, I was 18 and high school the first time it happened. Did I cry to Mom that the cop singled me out? Did she run to the papers protesting that I had to go to court? Nope. I went to court, paid my fine and court fees and was told that if I didn't have any more violations within a year then no points would go on my license. And if I had been caught speeding again I would have acepted the points on my license.

Since you are really stuck on this issue of how Michigan chooses to enforce laws, maybe you can seek out a grassroots movement to either amend the law and allow people to live together or see it appropriately enforced. If someone wants to challenge it in the legislature or put it on the ballot then great. That's one of the many nice things about this country. Laws can be revisited.

 

[maleficent1959]

So, if I was an underage drinker, what lesson would my parents have learned??

You lost me here. Are you talking about Disney Doll's quote about parents who don't let their children suffer the consequences of their actions or my neighbors who essentially did that? Neither of those referenced underaged drinking.