What is wrong here?!

[Cool-Beans]

I have a question about the above quote. It is MHO, but the reason the nursing shortage is as great as it is right now is because there just aren't very many people for whom the profession is "a calling" and who are willing to put up with the above listed behaviors and worse. Taking that into account, I am not sure what can be done about that...would it be better to not have nurses who look at it as "a job" at all? If so, you're looking at an even bigger shortage than we have now.

As to the OP, I cannot imagine it is *ever* not a big deal to be sexually assaulted, I don't care who is doing the assaulting. Yes, I do understand dementia; but I also understand that as a human being, being assaulted would cause me trauma, and it would not be very easy for me to shrug it off with, "Oh, well, he didn't know what he was doing." I guess that means I am not nurse material, which is yet one more to add to the shortage.

Is there a solution?

The nursing shortage has nothing to do with people not wanting to go into nursing. Recent grads report waiting 1 1/2 to 2 years to get into core classes. There are other verifiable and postulated reasons, but it isn't that people don't want to do it. It isn't for everyone, that's for sure, but there are more than enough people ready and willing.

Nurses who feel the way you do, that they have to "put up" with "sexual assault" shouldn't be nurses, you're sure right about that. If all nurses felt that way, there would be nobody to care for the patients!

Good nurses don't feel they are "putting up with" their patients. They feel that they are easing their burden, relieving their suffering. And they understand where some of the inappropriate stuff is coming from.

I think that as there are less RNs to fill the roles, the rules of who can do what will be re-written. LPNs will be able to hang blood and push all the meds their little hearts desire.

But the problems with having too much work are the fault of the hospitals. They simply won't staff more people than they are legally required to staff. I understand that they have to make money, but people die when there aren't enough good nurses around to check on them. It is the dirty little secret nobody talks about.

Someday, Mal, when you are very old, you may lose your mind and try to fight the person who is giving you a shot. You may claw at her arm, dig your nails in, try to bite her, spit on her, grab her shirt, etc. Do you want a nurse like me, who is calm and understanding...doesn't get angry, but takes the time to get your meds and is kind to you? Or do you want one like my co-worker, who said, "You handled that so well! If it had been me, the door would have been shut!"

And what kind of nurse do you want for your parents, or your children, when they are old?

Even if I told you, you wouldn't believe me, so I won't bother...but the things some of these nurses do to people and the way they treat (or don't treat) them is heartbreaking.

 

[SuperSteelerFan]

To Mono~Rail:
Yes, we checked all of his vitals and his were all WNL - his sat was 96% on RA and his heart rate was NSR in the 70's, so those weren't the problem. He was a fairly new admit for us (he's been there only about 3 1/2 to 4 hrs when this occurred) and we were unfamiliar with his history and behavior - apparently this is nothing new for him. BTW, he's still there and still acting out with vulgarity and violence. He punched and aide last night and continues with the sexual aggression.
To Cool-Beans:
I have been a nurse for 15 years, I have a Bachelors degree, and I am a damn good nurse despite what you think. You go on an on about not having compassion and not understanding dementia. I deal with plenty of dementia patients everyday that I work and understand the disease quite well, and while the sexual comments are a dime a dozen from both the confused and the oriented, I have never been groped before. I do have compassion for my patients and their families, but when you are in the middle of such an experience, sometimes it's a little hard to be all huggy and kissy and love your patients. I feel that I displayed compassion by not actually doing any physical harm in return despite what I may have thought. I never said that you were perfect - I never even referred to you personally in that post. I merely stated that I am not perfect and that I made a mistake in judgement by posting the first thoughts in my head after the incident occurred. If you are always compassionate towards your patients despite what they may do to you, and you are never angry or frustrated by them, then you are a terrific person and a fine nurse and we should all aspire to be more like you.

 

[WonderfulDreamer2]

I did med-surg, hospice, med-surg again, and now work cardiac care. I'm currently brusing up my peds skills to do pediatric hospice.

I've worked with all kinds of patients.

I don't see how 5 people would not be able to stop one man from continually fondling you. It kind of creeps me out to think of 5 nurses in a room not stopping that from happening. I mean, I've had people go for it, more than a few times, but it doesn't go on for minutes! Especially with a group of people helping!

Obviously, if he was fondling you all that time and talking about what he was doing, he wasn't flailing about wildly. What was everyone doing that he was able to keep that up? Wait, I don't want to know.

I get so tired of hearing people complain about patients at work. I don't say anything there and this is my outlet, as it is yours.

I really think that nurses who can't deal with people who do inappropriate things should just find another job. The dementia patients, drug addicts, etc. aren't going anywhere. So, either love them or leave them.

OMG...you are kidding right???? I'm a peds nurse and I've had 5 people in a room who couldn't hold a 4 yo down. I not sure what type of Eutopia like environment you work in, but I'd sure like to put in an application there.
To the OP, I feel you pain. I've done this for 15 years, mostly peds, but I've had my moments of adult care that makes me want leave the profession. I've had some of the best experiences in life with patients and families, but I've also had some of my worst. There is little appreciation from some patients and families for what you do, how much you have to do and the fact that they are NOT the only patient you have. I would want great care for my family too, but there are a lot of people out there who have unreasonable expectations.
To the quoted poster....

 

[Cool-Beans]

To Mono~Rail:
Yes, we checked all of his vitals and his were all WNL - his sat was 96% on RA and his heart rate was NSR in the 70's, so those weren't the problem. He was a fairly new admit for us (he's been there only about 3 1/2 to 4 hrs when this occurred) and we were unfamiliar with his history and behavior - apparently this is nothing new for him. BTW, he's still there and still acting out with vulgarity and violence. He punched and aide last night and continues with the sexual aggression.
To Cool-Beans:
I have been a nurse for 15 years, I have a Bachelors degree, and I am a damn good nurse despite what you think. You go on an on about not having compassion and not understanding dementia. I deal with plenty of dementia patients everyday that I work and understand the disease quite well, and while the sexual comments are a dime a dozen from both the confused and the oriented, I have never been groped before. I do have compassion for my patients and their families, but when you are in the middle of such an experience, sometimes it's a little hard to be all huggy and kissy and love your patients. I feel that I displayed compassion by not actually doing any physical harm in return despite what I may have thought. I never said that you were perfect - I never even referred to you personally in that post. I merely stated that I am not perfect and that I made a mistake in judgement by posting the first thoughts in my head after the incident occurred. If you are always compassionate towards your patients despite what they may do to you, and you are never angry or frustrated by them, then you are a terrific person and a fine nurse and we should all aspire to be more like you.

The definition of compassion is NOT refraining from beating someone when you wanted to.

I get a little frustrated sometimes, but it is pretty rare, and I don't get angry. I have a whole different view of nursing, so it is all much easier for me. I'm not a terrific person...I'm not even all that good a person. But I am a good nurse.

I think that you should change jobs. You think you understand dementia, but your posts show that you don't. You think that compassion is demonstrated by not physically hurting patients, and that is wildly off-base, too.

If you've been a nurse for 15 years and this is the first time someone tried to grab you, consider yourself extremely lucky!

I'm done now. I vented, said what I had to say.

You wanted to vent about patients and I wanted to vent about nurses who do that. So, we both got to vent.

 

[Cool-Beans]

OMG...you are kidding right???? I'm a peds nurse and I've had 5 people in a room who couldn't hold a 4 yo down. I not sure what type of Eutopia like environment you work in, but I'd sure like to put in an application there.
To the OP, I feel you pain. I've done this for 15 years, mostly peds, but I've had my moments of adult care that makes me want leave the profession. I've had some of the best experiences in life with patients and families, but I've also had some of my worst. There is little appreciation from some patients and families for what you do, how much you have to do and the fact that they are NOT the only patient you have. I would want great care for my family too, but there are a lot of people out there who have unreasonable expectations.
To the quoted poster....

The OP said later that the patient didn't actually continually fondle her, he just tried a few times, but the 5 (or 6) of them were able to prevent it.

There is a big difference between restraining someone and preventing someone from ongoing manipulation of your personal areas. I stand by my statement, but will skip the eye-rolling.

 

[WonderfulDreamer2]

The OP said later that the patient didn't actually continually fondle her, he just tried a few times, but the 5 (or 6) of them were able to prevent it.

There is a big difference between restraining someone and preventing someone from ongoing manipulation of your personal areas. I stand by my statement, but will skip the eye-rolling.

Here, I'll do the eye rolling for you. For someone who has so much understand and compassion for your patients, you have none for your profession. Within every nurse lies a human being with a range of emotions and limits. We've all had bad days and bad patients...except you of course. There are times I've said I would like to pinch my husbands head off. Violent? Ummm, no, just an expression of frustration. Does it make me a bad wife? No, not at all. Why are we allowed to be aggrivated by our family, our jobs (unless you're a nurse), creditors, our neighbors, our animals, our MIL/FIL, kids, cars...go ahead, pick a subject. But to be manhandled and come someplace to vent and simply get it off your chest makes you uncompassionate and in need of a career change? I can be totally aggrivated by a patient or family, walk in with a huge smile, take excellent care of them, be as sweet as you please, and walk out of the room wanting to thump them in the forehead. Would I do it? Hell no....I'm not like that. But it doesn't mean the thought doesn't cross my mind. And truthfully, the way you're acting about how great you are with your patients, makes me think you may be overcompensating and no, I'm not sure I would want you for a nurse. It sounds like you are a robot with little emotion. Wow, that feels better, now I've had my vent.

 

[SuperSteelerFan]

Ok Cool-Beans, now you've done it. You have convinced me that I am not worthy to be a human being let alone be a nurse. I'm sure now that I'm not a fit mother or wife and I am no longer an important person in society, so I just quit my job, filed for divorce, gave my DH (oh, sorry, ex-DH) full custody of my kids and terminated my parental rights. If anyone wants to find me, I'll lying on the street in front of my house waiting for the next car to end it all for me. THANKS ALOT FOR YOUR COMPASSION! I won't be back here.

 

[Disney Doll]

Honest question--but is it possible to restrain an unruly patient for a procedure? If you can't cooperate (and fondling seems a bit on the uncooperative side to me)..can other nurses or staff (if available) help to restrain a patient?

Where I work, restraining a patient is an absolute last resort. Thye literally practically have to have tried to kill you before you can restrain them.

 

[Disney Doll]

Nope, sorry, I cannot find much compassion for anyone that says they wanted to beat the snot out of an ill, elderly patient w/ dementia. I don't care how bad things got. You took an oath to care for and treat people w/ respect. If you cannot uphold that oath, it's time to move on.

Why didn't you request security to hold the man? And, if I read correctly, there were 4 nurses holding him and he still managed to fondle you? Ok.

I have respect for nurses that have respect for their patients and families. I have respect for nurses that deserve respect, not for someone that wants to beat the snot out of a patient. You really should be ashamed of your post.

First of all, I don't recall taking any oath.

Second of all, unless you have seen an agitated patient and what they are capable of, don't at anything. You truly have no idea.

Third of all, if you actually do have respect for nurses, you are one of the few people in the world who do.

 

[Mono~rail]

First of all, I don't recall taking any oath.

Me either.

Second of all, unless you have seen an agitated patient and what they are capable of, don't at anything. You truly have no idea.

Third of all, if you actually do have respect for nurses, you are one of the few people in the world who do.

Ain't that the truth! Sing it again, Sister!

The post that you responded to says so much about what is expected of nurses. Pts and their families are supposed to be allowed to treat nurses like dirt, and the nurses are supposed to just take it or risk being accused of lacking compassion and respect for others.

 

[tiggersmom2]

Here, I'll do the eye rolling for you. For someone who has so much understand and compassion for your patients, you have none for your profession. Within every nurse lies a human being with a range of emotions and limits. We've all had bad days and bad patients...except you of course. There are times I've said I would like to pinch my husbands head off. Violent? Ummm, no, just an expression of frustration. Does it make me a bad wife? No, not at all. Why are we allowed to be aggrivated by our family, our jobs (unless you're a nurse), creditors, our neighbors, our animals, our MIL/FIL, kids, cars...go ahead, pick a subject. But to be manhandled and come someplace to vent and simply get it off your chest makes you uncompassionate and in need of a career change? I can be totally aggrivated by a patient or family, walk in with a huge smile, take excellent care of them, be as sweet as you please, and walk out of the room wanting to thump them in the forehead. Would I do it? Hell no....I'm not like that. But it doesn't mean the thought doesn't cross my mind. And truthfully, the way you're acting about how great you are with your patients, makes me think you may be overcompensating and no, I'm not sure I would want you for a nurse. It sounds like you are a robot with little emotion. Wow, that feels better, now I've had my vent.

Standing ovation!!! I get so sick of people thinking nurses should be super human robots. To all the holier than thou on this thread that heaped criticism on the OP when she was definitely having a horrible day - Shame on YOU!!!! If you truly walked a mile in a nurses shoes you would think twice before being so sanctimonious.

 

[Cool-Beans]

Standing ovation!!! I get so sick of people thinking nurses should be super human robots. To all the holier than thou on this thread that heaped criticism on the OP when she was definitely having a horrible day - Shame on YOU!!!! If you truly walked a mile in a nurses shoes you would think twice before being so sanctimonious.

I don't think it is sanctimonious to have a different idea of compassion than the OPs...

I feel that I displayed compassion by not actually doing any physical harm in return despite what I may have thought.

And that isn't her first "vent" post...that is her most recent.

I am so disheartened that so many people here feel this way.

And I ask - again - what is it that you think should be done to patients with dementia who behave inappropriately?

 

[WonderfulDreamer2]

Standing ovation!!! I get so sick of people thinking nurses should be super human robots. To all the holier than thou on this thread that heaped criticism on the OP when she was definitely having a horrible day - Shame on YOU!!!! If you truly walked a mile in a nurses shoes you would think twice before being so sanctimonious.

Thank you....that just burned my butt. And if I haven't said it yet, congratulations on the baby.

 

[tiggersmom2]

Thank you....that just burned my butt. And if I haven't said it yet, congratulations on the baby.

Awwww....thank you! We will have a new Neal Boortz fan before you know it!!!!

 

[Mono~rail]

I don't think it is sanctimonious to have a different idea of compassion than the OPs... And that isn't her first "vent" post...that is her most recent.

I am so disheartened that so many people here feel this way.

And I ask - again - what is it that you think should be done to patients with dementia who behave inappropriately?

I'm not taking sides, but I don't think you've said anything that was so bad.

Pts with dementia are some of the toughest to deal with - especially when they become combative. On the med-surg unit I used to work on, we would take turns dealing with the tough ones. If a fellow nurse was getting near the end of their rope with a pt, we would go in and handle things for them. We would just teamwork it out. Our docs ordered restraints when necessary.

 

[firstmickey]

Nursing is in a crisis. There are not enough of us, and it is only going to get worse. Within the next 20 years, when all the nurses who are now average age 48 (because that is the average age of a nurse today...48) retire, there aren't going to be a lot of nurses left. Younger folks today aren't going into nursing, because they have so many more opportunities to do so many more exciting things. Let's see...work for a big company where I have the opportunity to grow, earn a really big salary, and maybe travel a bit, or become a nurse, clean people's butts, deal with demented people who try to fondle me, and work weekends, evening, nights and holidays...which would you choose?

It's a crisis in the making, and unfortunately, no one really seems to be addressing it.

I totally agree. And people truly have no idea about how horrible it is going to be for the future.


as for the OP.... We all have days where we are discouraged and just wish for a little appreciation and support which I feel was all you were really looking for here.

as for dealing with a combative patient...my last patient (I work in a busy urban ICU)...going through DT's....was combative, nasty, restrained with both hand/feet and posey vest restraints and still got out of it and fell on the floor. I went to get him a blanket at the family's request and came back to him lying on the floor..none of them tried to stop him. By the end of my 12 hour shift, security had placed him in leather restraints so that he didnt injure himself, me or anyone else. Not a fun day. did I understand why he acted like that? of course....did he bug the crap out of me for 12 hours because it is so aggravating to repeat stuff over and over and over and continuously put him back in bed..dodging the hits/the spitting and the vulgarities.... of course.... But guess, what? I'll go back tomorrow...like Im sure you will.....with smile on your face...hoping to help the next patient. Because that's what we do. It's just nice to have a and a "wow...that sucked...but great job"

instead of ridicule and from people who can never understand what we do in an 8/12/16 hour shift or people who pretend they never have any real emotions while doing it.




ETA: when I first saw the title of your post with your screen name...I thought this was gonna be a "what's gone wrong with our Steelers" kind of post!

 

[Cool-Beans]

I'm not taking sides, but I don't think you've said anything that was so bad.

Pts with dementia are some of the toughest to deal with - especially when they become combative. On the med-surg unit I used to work on, we would take turns dealing with the tough ones. If a fellow nurse was getting near the end of their rope with a pt, we would go in and handle things for them. We would just teamwork it out. Our docs ordered restraints when necessary.

Our docs order restraints, too. And if a patient can't be controlled by the nurse, there are security guys who can control him. I do hate calling them, because they are super-protective of the nurses...they aren't too nice, either. But nice isn't their job so much.

In fact, if a patient pulls out the IV, is tossing urine around and such, the patient would be restrained. I have yet to find a doc who wouldn't then put the order in.

I don't pretend that I don't have emotions. I just honestly have compassion for these folks. I don't get angry. When patients flip out, I'm genuinely more concerned with their welfare than my own. I worry that controling them will cause them to be upset...they don't understand what they're doing...or what we're doing. I feel badly for them...always trying to make it as easy on them as possible.

I'm aware that lots of nurses don't feel this way...but it doesn't mean there is something wrong with me.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who thinks compassion is not beating up the patient has something wrong with them. Anyone who thinks nurses ought to be allowed to beat up old guys with dementia has something wrong with them...and ought to quit.

 

[WonderfulDreamer2]

Our docs order restraints, too. And if a patient can't be controlled by the nurse, there are security guys who can control him. I do hate calling them, because they are super-protective of the nurses...they aren't too nice, either. But nice isn't their job so much.

In fact, if a patient pulls out the IV, is tossing urine around and such, the patient would be restrained. I have yet to find a doc who wouldn't then put the order in.

I don't pretend that I don't have emotions. I just honestly have compassion for these folks. I don't get angry. When patients flip out, I'm genuinely more concerned with their welfare than my own. I worry that controling them will cause them to be upset...they don't understand what they're doing...or what we're doing. I feel badly for them...always trying to make it as easy on them as possible.

I'm aware that lots of nurses don't feel this way...but it doesn't mean there is something wrong with me.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who thinks compassion is not beating up the patient has something wrong with them. Anyone who thinks nurses ought to be allowed to beat up old guys with dementia has something wrong with them...and ought to quit.

Wow, with JCHAO's rules about restraint use, it's hard to believe you and your docs are so liberal with restraint use. That could easily cost your facility loss of accredidation. Pulling out an IV and tossing urine is not a standard for restraint use.
My problem with your statements, has been you have take the venting of frustrations and taken them as literal and are now trying hard to paint a very ugly picture of the OP's feelings. Just because people have thoughts, doesn't mean they act on them. I've worked with your type before. And it is always miserable for the rest of the staff. All the OP wanted was a shoulder to lean on and someone to listen. Your compassion is just shining through at this moment. Congratulations.

 

[Cool-Beans]

Wow, with JCHAO's rules about restraint use, it's hard to believe you and your docs are so liberal with restraint use. That could easily cost your facility loss of accredidation. Pulling out an IV and tossing urine is not a standard for restraint use.
My problem with your statements, has been you have take the venting of frustrations and taken them as literal and are now trying hard to paint a very ugly picture of the OP's feelings. Just because people have thoughts, doesn't mean they act on them. I've worked with your type before. And it is always miserable for the rest of the staff. All the OP wanted was a shoulder to lean on and someone to listen. Your compassion is just shining through at this moment. Congratulations.

We have zero problems with accredidation, thanks. Patients who are a danger to themselves and others can be restrained...how can you not know that?

I didn't paint any picture of the OP's feelings. She stated them over and over, and not just in her original, "vent" post. Had she simply been venting, no problem. It's the part about nothing being done to the old guys with dementia, and the repeated posts about her not beating him up that get to me.

And if you read her posts, you'll see she has no idea what dementia is all about.

If you, too, feel that compassion is NOT beating up patients, then you should quit your job. And quit complaining about people who don't agree with that definition of "compassion."

In general, I do have compassion for rotten nurses. I just have more for the patients...and don't think those nurses should continue taking care of patients.

 

[WonderfulDreamer2]

We have zero problems with accredidation, thanks. Patients who are a danger to themselves and others can be restrained...how can you not know that?
I didn't paint any picture of the OP's feelings. She stated them over and over, and not just in her original, "vent" post. Had she simply been venting, no problem. It's the part about nothing being done to the old guys with dementia, and the repeated posts about her not beating him up that get to me.

And if you read her posts, you'll see she has no idea what dementia is all about.

If you, too, feel that compassion is NOT beating up patients, then you should quit your job. And quit complaining about people who don't agree with that definition of "compassion."

In general, I do have compassion for rotten nurses. I just don't think they should continue taking care of patients.

Very familiar with that. Also familiar with the fact that JCHAO doesn't consider pulling out IV's endangering themselves, but do feel that nurses that restrain these patients do it to keep the patients from inconveniencing them. How could you not know that. Jesus, what kind of pills are you on that you never experince emotions like anger and frustration? Maybe you've had the narcotic keys too long.