What is "terrorism"?

Kendra17 said:
Arabs have the choice of 55 Arab countries in which to live. Some having more stringent Sharia controls than others. The Jewish state has a sizable Arab population. You may recall Arab-Israelis were given the option of which passport they would like to have-- Israeli or Jordanian. They all chose Israeli. Your criticism of Israel's treatment of the Arabs is absurd becasue if the Arabs are unhappy, they are welcome to leave and live in any other Arab country. But, they do not leave. Israel is kinder to its Arab minority than Arab and Persian oligarchies and tyrannies are to their own people. You take petty criticism and explode it and make it much greater in importance than it truly is. As before, any Arab that lives in Israel can leave. Jews in Iran, for instance, do NOT have the freedom of travel and they do NOT have the right to speak freely to foreign journalists to tell their stories. If ever a minority was in desperate straits, the Jews in Iran fit the bill.

Jews in Germany during the rise of Hitler were in very similar circumstances.


"Human Rights activists" are notoriously anti-Israel. I do not believe the conclusion that your false logic is trying to lead me to. Arabs are not more likely to be convicted of any crime in Israel simply because they are Arab. I do believe, however, that they are more likely to perpetrate such crimes in Israel.

You know, I was with you so far, but if you go as far as saying "Human Rights Activists" are "notoriously anti-Israel", I can not continue debating with you. This is not about German's treatment of Jews or Arab or Muslim media. It is understandable that Arab media is hostile to Israel and vice versa. But to go and make such claim about Human Rights Activists, is simply paranoid. These activists have blamed Iranian and Arab government s on many many occasions in particular for treatment of their own people.

These activists stand up for those who do not have a voice. Does it seem impossible to you that Israeli government could be committing crimes?
 
markmymark said:
You know, I was with you so far, but if you go as far as saying "Human Rights Activists" are "notoriously anti-Israel", I can not continue debating with you. This is not about German's treatment of Jews or Arab or Muslim media. It is understandable that Arab media is hostile to Israel and vice versa. But to go and make such claim about Human Rights Activists, is simply paranoid. These activists have blamed Iranian and Arab government s on many many occasions in particular for treatment of their own people.

These activists stand up for those who do not have a voice. Does it seem impossible to you that Israeli government could be committing crimes?

denying that "human rights activists" are not anti-israel and have a political agenda against israel is like saying that cnn, npr, bbc, reuters, and al-jazeera are fair and balanced in their reporting.

denying that "human rights activists" are "notoriously anti-israel" is like saying that arafat deserved the nobel peace prize, it's like saying that jihad is about "inner struggle", it's like saying that "islam is the religion of peace". there is nothing paranoid about knowing the enemy and their minions.

your exit from the debate is a good choice as there is a winnner so far, and it ain't you.
 
louie694 said:
denying that "human rights activists" are not anti-israel and have a political agenda against israel is like saying that cnn, npr, bbc, reuters, and al-jazeera are fair and balanced in their reporting.

denying that "human rights activists" are "notoriously anti-israel" is like saying that arafat deserved the nobel peace prize, it's like saying that jihad is about "inner struggle", it's like saying that "islam is the religion of peace". there is nothing paranoid about knowing the enemy and their minions.

your exit from the debate is a good choice as there is a winnner so far, and it ain't you.

I was not speaking to you, but since you seem interested, I have heard that "Human Rights Activists" are pro-Israel and Anti-Islam. I have heard that Israel is run by Jewish Fundamentalists who are trying to eradicate Iran, Arab countries, and Muslims. Israel pushed US into a war against Afghanistan, Iraq, and necessarily, next is Iran.

Here are some quotes from Israeli leaders:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."

-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

------------------

You see, it is easy to take sides. I am trying to have a civilized argument here. If someone starts getting paranoid and talk about conspiracy and "everybody is against us" mentality (e.g human rights activists), this argument will deteriorate.
 
markmymark said:
Man, come to think of it, maybe we should just burn all the oil in the Middle East and be done with it.

Then Arab Sheikhs will have to get off their *** and start working instead of sitting on oil money, and maybe US will stop interfering in Middle East politics and also develop a new source of energy.

Oh yeah, it reminds me, I have to put some sweet sweet gas in my SUV ;)

One of those 15mpg v8 things? :blush:

I agree with you that terrorism has secular goals, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
 

Teejay32 said:
One of those 15mpg v8 things? :blush:

I agree with you that terrorism has secular goals, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Actually it's V6 :) I am one of those guys Freud would analyze as a man with "p-e-n-i-s- envy" :teeth: I just can't drive the little Miata or something like that...makes me feel emasculated.

Seriously though, I like SUVs, but man have I been paying and paying for this! With the gas prices, you know. It's a black Lexus, and took me a long time to earn enough money to buy it. It's really nice.

----

Agree with you on the secular objectives of terrorism.
 
LOL. If you haven't been here before, welcome to the DIS!
 
markmymark said:
I have heard that Israel is run by Jewish Fundamentalists who are trying to eradicate Iran, Arab countries, and Muslims. Israel pushed US into a war against Afghanistan, Iraq, and necessarily, next is Iran.
.

perhaps you actually believe that this is true. i can tell you that it is not.
defensive war is not ever considered "eradication". israel does not want to eradicate it's neighbors nor have they ever made statements to this effect.

iran has made statements calling for the destruction of israel on numerous occasions.

hamas continues to say these things.

arafat always said these things in arabic while he spoke of peace to the west in english.

abbas has said this before he became the leader of the PA, now deposed of course by hamas.

propaganda has never been a very effective tool in intellectual discourse. it won't work here with those who are well informed. you may "speak to the choir" on the left and hard left who populate this board but most will see the truth between your lines.

your argument is like saying that israel and bush are nazis and the islamists who have attacked us again and again are the victims in all this.

your moral confusion is stunning. but you are not alone. the entire democratic party stands with you. are you running for office?
 
In my books:

Terrorism is the furtherance of political goals by means of violence or threats of violence, either in first person or third, with an intent to make the subjects feel threatened or worse.



Rich::
 
markmymark said:
You know, I was with you so far
I really tend to doubt this
, but if you go as far as saying "Human Rights Activists" are "notoriously anti-Israel", I can not continue debating with you. This is not about German's treatment of Jews or Arab or Muslim media. It is understandable that Arab media is hostile to Israel and vice versa. But to go and make such claim about Human Rights Activists, is simply paranoid. These activists have blamed Iranian and Arab government s on many many occasions in particular for treatment of their own people.

These activists stand up for those who do not have a voice. Does it seem impossible to you that Israeli government could be committing crimes?
I think you stated paranoid in another post. It would be better for Israel if I were paranoid rather than realistic. The truth, however, is exactly as I stated. You may dislike my sources.
http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_protest_calendar_groups.asp
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/editions/v3n10/June05.htm
 
Because Alan Dershowitz is pro-Israel, you may disregard him immediately, despite his liberal background. However, I hope some here read this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/amnesty-internationals-b_b_28257.html

Amnesty International's Biased Definition of War Crimes: Whatever Israel Does to Defend Its Citizens

Alan Dershowitz

The two principal "human rights" organizations are in a race to the bottom to see which group can demonize Israel with the most absurd legal arguments and most blatant factual misstatements. Until last week, Human Rights Watch enjoyed a prodigious lead, having "found" - contrary to what every newspaper in the world had reported and what everyone saw with their own eyes on television - "no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack."

Those of us familiar with Amnesty International's nefarious anti-Israel agenda and notoriously "suggestible" investigative methodology wondered how it could possibly match such a breathtaking lie.

But we didn't have to wait long for AI to announce that Israel was guilty of a slew of war crimes for "widespread attacks against public civilian infrastructure, including power plants, bridges, main roads, seaports, and Beirut's international airport."

There are two problems with the Amnesty report and conclusion. First, Amnesty is wrong about the law. Israel committed no war crimes by attacking parts of the civilian infrastructure in Lebanon. In fact, through restraint, Israel was able to minimize then number of civilian casualties in Lebanon, despite Hezbollah's best efforts to embed itself in population centers and to use civilians as human shields. The total number of innocent Muslim civilians killed by Israeli weapons during a month of ferocious defensive warfare was a fraction of the number of innocent Muslims killed by other Muslims during that same period in Iraq, Sudan, Afghanistan, Algeria, and other areas of Muslim-on-Muslim civil strife. Yet the deaths caused by Muslims received a fraction of the attention devoted to alleged Israeli "crimes." This lack of concern for Muslims by other Muslims - and the lack of focus by so-called human rights organizations on these deaths - is bigotry, pure and simple.

Amnesty's evidence that Israel's attacks on infrastructure constitute war crimes comes from its own idiosyncratic interpretation of the already-vague word "disproportionate." Unfortunately for Amnesty, no other country in any sort of armed conflict has ever adopted such a narrow definition of the term. Indeed, among the very first military objectives of most modern wars is precisely what Israel did: to disable portions of the opponent's electrical grid and communication network, to destroy bridges and roads, and to do whatever else is necessary to interfere with those parts of the civilian infrastructure that supports the military capability of the enemy. That's how the America and Britain militaries fought World War II. (In fact, Israel shows far more restraint than Britain did during World War II. Prime Minister Churchill directed the Royal Air Force to bomb the center of towns with the express purpose of killing as many civilians as possible.) Had the Allies been required to fight World War II under the rules of engagement selectively applied to Amnesty International to Israel, our "greatest generation" might have lost that war.

The strategy of destroying some infrastructure was particular imperative against Hezbollah. Israel first had to ensure that its kidnapped soldiers would not be smuggled out of the country (as other soldiers had been and were never returned), then it had to prevent Hezbollah from being re-armed, especially given that Hezbollah damaged a ship using advanced radar technology provided by the Lebanese army and rockets provided by Iran. The terrorists were being armed by Syria and Iran - as those countries themselves admitted - and the president, government, and population of Lebanon overwhelmingly supported Hezbollah's indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israeli civilian population centers. The Lebanese army actively supported Hezbollah's military actions. Israel was, in a very real sense, at war with Lebanon itself, and not simply with a renegade faction of militants.

Here's how law professor David Bernstein answered Amnesty's charge:

The idea that a country at war can't attack the enemy's resupply routes (at least until it has direct evidence that there is a particular military shipment arriving) has nothing to do with human rights or war crimes, and a lot to do with a pacifist attitude that seeks to make war, regardless of the justification for it or the restraint in prosecuting it [at least if it's a Western country doing it], an international "crime."

In other words, if attacking the civilian infrastructure is a war crime, then modern warfare is entirely impermissible, and terrorists have a free hand in attacking democracies and hiding from retaliation among civilians. Terrorists become de facto immune from any consequences for their atrocities.

The more troubling aspect of Amnesty's report is their inattention to Hezbollah. If Israel is guilty of war crimes for targeting civilian infrastructure, imagine how much greater is Hezbollah's moral responsibility for targeting civilians! But Amnesty shows little interest in condemning the terrorist organization that started the conflict, indiscriminately killed both Israeli civilians (directly) and Lebanese civilians (by using them as human shields), and has announced its intention to kill Jews worldwide (already having started by blowing up the Jewish Community Center in Argentina.) Apparently Amnesty has no qualms about Hezbollah six-year war of attrition against Israel following Israel's complete withdrawal from Southern Lebanon.

As has been widely reported, even al-Jazeera expressed surprise at the imbalance in the Amnesty report:

During the four week war Hezbollah fired 3,900 rockets at Israeli towns and cities with the aim of inflicting maximum civilian casualties.

The Israeli government says that 44 Israeli civilians were killed in the bombardments and 1,400 wounded.

AI has not issued a report accusing Hezbollah of war crimes.


Amnesty does not even seem to understand the charges it is making. Take, for example, this paragraph from its report:

Israeli government spokespeople have insisted that they were targeting Hizbullah positions and support facilities, and that damage to civilian infrastructure was incidental or resulted from Hizbullah using the civilian population as a "human shield". However, the pattern and scope of the attacks, as well as the number of civilian casualties and the amount of damage sustained, makes the justification ring hollow.

But the issue of human shields and infrastructure are different. The first relates to civilian casualties; the second concerns property damage. Of course Israel intentionally targeted bridges and roads. It would have been militarily negligent not to have done so under the circumstances. But it did not target innocent civilians. It would have given them no military benefit to do so.

The allegations become even more tenuous, as when Amnesty writes, "a road that can be used for military transport is still primarily civilian in nature." By this reasoning, terrorists could commandeer any structure or road initially constructed for civilian use, and Israel could not touch those bridges or buildings because they were once, and still could be, used by civilians. This is not, and should not be, the law.

Consider another example: "While the use of civilians to shield a combatant from attack is a war crime, under international humanitarian law such use does not release the opposing party from its obligations towards the protection of the civilian population." Well that's certainly nice sounding. But what does it mean? What would Amnesty suggest a country do in the face of daily rocket attacks launched from civilian populations? Nothing, apparently. The clear implication of Amnesty's arguments is that the only way Israel could have avoided committing "war crimes" would have been if it had taken only such military action that carried with it no risk to civilian shields - that is, to do absolutely nothing. For Amnesty, "Israeli war crimes" are synonymous with "any military action whatsoever." The real problem with Amnesty's paper is that its blanket condemnations do not consider the consequences of its arguments. (It doesn't have to; it would never advance these arguments against any country but Israel.)

Amnesty International's conclusions are not based on sound legal arguments. They're certainly not based on compelling moral arguments. They're simply anti-Israel arguments. Amnesty reached a predetermined conclusion - that Israel committed war crimes - and it is marshalling whatever sound-bites it could to support that conclusion.

Amnesty International is not only sacrificing its own credibility when it misstates the law and omits relevant facts in its obsession over Israel. It also harms progressive causes that AI should be championing. Just last year, for example, Amnesty blamed Palestinian rapes and "honor killings" on - you guessed it - the Israeli occupation. When I pointed out that there was absolutely no statistical evidence to show that domestic violence increased during the occupation, and that Amnesty's report relied exclusively on the conclusory and anecdotal reports of Palestinian NGOs, Amnesty stubbornly repeated that "Israel is implicated in this violence by Palestinian men against Palestinian women." This episode only underscored AI's predisposition to blame everything on Israel. Even when presented with an ideal opportunity to promote gender equality and feminism in the Arab world, it preferred to take wholly unrelated and absurd shots at Israel.

Amnesty International just can't seem to help itself when it comes to blaming Israel for the evils of the world, but rational observers must not credit the pre-determined conclusions of a once-reputable organization that has destroyed its own credibility by repeatedly applying a double standard to Israel.
 
louie694 said:
your argument is like saying that israel and bush are nazis and the islamists who have attacked us again and again are the victims in all this.

I didn't see it that way. The op says that most acts of terrorism spring from political goals, not religious ones, and the subsequent one say that it's easy to widen that conflict unnecessarily...for example Israel vs. Palestine isn't wholly Jewish vs. Muslim, or there'd be no pro-Palestine Jews; it's not wholly Jews vs. Arabs, or there'd be no Israeli Arabs...
 
Teejay32 said:
I agree with you that terrorism has secular goals
Islamic terrorism has political goals. They are political in nature, but they are not secular. They are borne because Islam creates a culture which permits and excuses jihadist activity-- of which terrorism is a part of. This makes terrorism both religious and political.

To Westerners, the definition of moral is everything or anything that tends to promote life. Immorality is everything that tends to disregard life.

I would assume we all agree with this.

It's not opposite in Islam. It's just different and many Westerners don't understand the ideology.

In Islam, morality is everything or anything that tends to promote Islam and the spread of Islam. Immorality is anything that tends to obstruct or hinder the spread of Islam.

It's a whole different philosophy. That is why it's so difficult for so many to understand.
 
I can understand that in relation to Chechnya or Kashmir or Palestine...but not bin Laden, not on 9/11 or in Somalia. Not Hezbollah's attack on the Marines in 1983. Islamic rhetoric is a good cover for what is essentially organized crime in some places, as evidenced by how often they're busy killing each other.
 
Teejay32 said:
I can understand that in relation to Chechnya or Kashmir or Palestine...but not bin Laden, not on 9/11 or in Somalia. Not Hezbollah's attack on the Marines in 1983. Islamic rhetoric is a good cover for what is essentially organized crime in some places, as evidenced by how often they're busy killing each other.

Certainly you're right. This behavior is criminal. But, it's not criminal behavior for its own sake, it's criminal behavior for political and religious purposes. It's criminal behavior that is used as a tool in war.
 
Kendra17 said:
Certainly you're right. This behavior is criminal. But, it's not criminal behavior for its own sake, it's criminal behavior for political and religious purposes. It's criminal behavior that is used as a tool in war.

Check this out first, it's from an International Socialism journal:

This assessment is backed by an analysis of Al Qaida from another source. The organisation is usually taken as the epitome of Islamic fundamentalism—the group most bent on declaring a religious war on the West, against modernity and secularism. But the question that Stephen Holmes rightly raises is whether religious belief causes an action (such as the bombing of the twin towers) or whether the action may be motivated by another cause but be expressed in religious form:


Does Osama Bin Laden want to eject the United States from Saudi Arabia because its troops were desecrating sacred soil, or is he aggrieved, like any anti-colonialist or nationalist insurgent, that the United States is plundering his country’s national resources? Does Ayman al-Zawahiri, the physician who founded Egyptian Islamic Jihad and who is usually considered Bin Laden’s closest associate, want to overthrow Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak because the latter is an apostate or because he is a tyrant?54


Difficult though it may be to disentangle the religious from the non-religious, Holmes’s conclusion about the nature of Al Qaida’s ‘war’ on the US is substantially the same at Pape’s:


The vast majority of Bin Laden’s public statements provide secular, not religious, rationales for 9/11. The principal purpose of the attack was to punish the ‘unjust and tyrannical America’. The casus belli he invokes over and over again is injustice not impiety. True, he occasionally remarks that the United States has declared war on god, but such statements would carry little conviction if not seconded by claims that the United States is tyrannising and exploiting Muslim people… Bin Laden almost never justifies terrorism against the West as a means for subordinating Western unbelievers to the true faith. Instead, he almost always justifies terrorism against the West as a form of legitimate self-defence.55


In other words, the goal of Al Qaida is no different from other national liberation movements—to achieve independence by forcing the imperialist power to retreat. It may express itself in religious terms, but in essence it pursues the same aim as previous secular-nationalist movements in the Middle East—the defeat of US imperialism and its allies in the region.

I'm not promoting Socialism, mind you, but I'll take the word of other Socialists that there's something familiar about recent developments in terrorism. 9/11 did nothing for Islam or Muslims; it did inflict injury upon the Great Satan...so for this and other reasons I'm not satisfied that terrorism is grounded in religion. Cloaked in it - sure.
 
All I can say is that a lot of people are caught between extremist neocons such as Bush who think G-D put them on Earth to fight "evil", and Islamist extremists who think that US is Evil. Where did the moderates go? :sad2:
 
Teejay32 said:
Check this out first, it's from an International Socialism journal:



I'm not promoting Socialism, mind you, but I'll take the word of other Socialists that there's something familiar about recent developments in terrorism. 9/11 did nothing for Islam or Muslims; it did inflict injury upon the Great Satan...so for this and other reasons I'm not satisfied that terrorism is grounded in religion. Cloaked in it - sure.

I think that the socialists discussing this issue here are missing the point altogether. What liberation can they be referring to? Is this a liberation movement for the Muslim peoples rising up against the tyrannies and dictators that keep them living in filth and completely police state and controlled societies? Even the "progressive" arab states are misogynists, anti-intellectual, and intolerant. There is no such "liberation" movement against the arab dictatorships by alqaeda though overthrowing the House of Saud is part of their stated issue. No, they focus on the US, Israel, Europe, and the Jews.

So, the argument about "liberation" is a lie and a complete misunderstanding. Not surprising coming from the source that you've quoted.

Terrorism is a tool for the spread of Islam. Confused morality and overthrow of non-Islamic states are the core of Binladenism and terror. Theirs is not a liberation from the oppressive governments under which they live, theirs is a movement of liberating non-Muslim lands from the Infidels!

So, the socialists who wrote the article are half right but for the wrong reasons. The spread of Islam is the true purpose of Binladen, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Taliban, et al. The fact that they have embraced death and violence is very unpleasant and unfortunate for us and our friends who are not Muslim and have no desire to be.

But for the American and European Left it is an inconvenience only, as they are unable to understand the true nature of what is happening.

Yes, this is a "liberation" struggle on the part of the Islamists - the goal is to "liberate" our western countries from us so that they can all become part of a global Caliphate. Many Islamist leaders have said this in print, in mosques, and in other public declarations.

Like Hitler with Mein Kampf (My Jihad??) they are telling us very clearly what their intentions are. It is a total crime and sin that so many in this country, in our leadership and across Europe do not want to listen.

Refusing to take the enemy at their word is patronizing in the extreme. But being patronizing is part and parcel of the liberal, leftist elite approach to politics and the world. (Teejay, I know that you are moderate in your views, and I am not referring to you here personally.)
 
markmymark said:
All I can say is that a lot of people are caught between extremist neocons such as Bush who think G-D put them on Earth to fight "evil", and Islamist extremists who think that US is Evil. Where did the moderates go? :sad2:

I see it this way: All I can say is that a lot of people are caught between Islamists who think that the West is Evil and a bunch of liberal Lefties who do not look at the evidence in front of them and are stuck like deer in the headlights-- afraid to move and do ANYTHING at all to fight those that believe the West is evil. Where did heroism and bravery go?
 
Kendra17 said:
I see it this way: All I can say is that a lot of people are caught between Islamists who think that the West is Evil and a bunch of liberal Lefties who do not look at the evidence in front of them and are stuck like deer in the headlights-- afraid to move and do ANYTHING at all to fight those that believe the West is evil. Where did heroism and bravery go?

Hahaha! Don't tell me you're a neocon-wanna-be! Do you see the world in black-and-white? Do you see world as continuous war between Angel (aka US) versus Evil (Muslims, Middle Easterns, Communists...everything that is not US)?

If so, you need new glasses :)

There are shades of grey.

Anybody who calls anybody else "evil" still lives in Middle Ages. Did you not get the memo...we don't exorcise people any more. Welcome to the complex world that is no Disney World. There is no Scar and no Simba.

If you are not willing to accept the world in its multi dimentions, you are going to set yourself up for disappointment.

Bush and Co. care about you as much Bin Laden cares about the Islamic cause. Both come from insanely rich families and are amongst the most selfish people I have ever heard of.

Sorry to burst your bubble. Bush is no white knight! :p
 
markmymark said:
Hahaha! Don't tell me you're a neocon-wanna-be! Do you see the world in black-and-white? Do you see world as continuous war between Angel (aka US) versus Evil (Muslims, Middle Easterns, Communists...everything that is not US)?

If so, you need new glasses :)

There are shades of grey.

Anybody who calls anybody else "evil" still lives in Middle Ages. Did you not get the memo...we don't exorcise people any more. Welcome to the complex world that is no Disney World. There is no Scar and no Simba.

If you are not willing to accept the world in its multi dimentions, you are going to set yourself up for disappointment.

Bush and Co. care about you as much Bin Laden cares about the Islamic cause. Both come from insanely rich families and are amongst the most selfish people I have ever heard of.

Sorry to burst your bubble. Bush is no white knight! :p

Your denial of the existence of evil and whitewashing the concept by criticising my so-called inability to "see the grays" is typical cookie-cutter leftist non-intellectual blather.

There is no gray when there are forces at work in the world whose only goal is the destruction of my country (and many others) to further their political and religious aspirations. Your inability to see this would be impressive in any other situation most likely, but your approach is so common and so lacking in any factual or historical reasoning that it is almost banal in its commonality.
 

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