What do you do when you are invited to a gay wedding and you oppose gay marriage?

[gottaluvPluto]

Huh?

I'm arguing on the basis of a long case history involving the equal protection clause and oppressed minority groups ("suspect classes"). The rich can't be a suspect class. And the equal protection clause has never been interpreted to apply to tax rates.

(I don't understand the idea of a flat tax being equal. Are we going to tax people who are homeless and made $20 at the same rate as someone who made $1,000,000? And if we do--how do we make sure that the homeless person doesn't starve to death? We can't give them any state benefits that the millionaire isn't entitled to as well, because that would be unequal right? So we either have to let the homeless person starve to death or we have to make food stamps available for the millionaire as well. But wait--how did that person get to be homeless and how did that millionaire get to be a millionaire. As you say, if you really believe in equality, then shouldn't these people be getting the same amount of income in the first place. I would think that your argument would lead directly to a strict egalitarian position--no one can have more than anyone else. I think that's a ridiculous position, so I guess I don't *truly* believe in equality. But then, neither do you so it looks like we're both hypocrites.

Now what in the world did this have to do with gay marriage?)

What about people who want to marry their relatives, or people who want 40 wives or 40 husbands?

I would go to persons wedding no matter what my view point is about the union.

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

Hey Hilarie (cool name).

Grandmas are off limits.

Seriously, if one of my family members was opposed on a core level, then I would tell that person, I thanked them for their level of acceptance and attempt and release them from the need to be present. I would tell them that I knew they were "trying" and that was all that mattered.

I've come to a point in my life you see, where it is critically important to be perfectly clear on such matters.

Friends are people we choose (unlike biological family) to share our lives with. I cannot imagine having a true friend who could not accept my marriage and be gloriously happy for me. Do I believe that friendship can come out of a relationship that first featured resistance and lack of understanding? Absolutely, but the relationship would have had to progress beyond that before I would be comfortable having that person witness what was to be perhaps the most significant moment in my life.

Hard line? Yep. It's a place I have to be right now.

I do like discussing this with you! You have very valid points and I thank you for caring enough to share them with us here.

 

[RadioNate]

Where did this claim about open-mindedness come from. I've never claimed to be open-minded. I am NOT open-minded about people being treated as *legally* inferior to others simply because they are a disliked minority. (Are you open minded about that? Do you have family members who donate $ to bring back racial segregation and you just shrug it off and say "Oh well, Grandma thinks differently than I do." What if your children were mixed-race--how could you possibly explain to them that Grandma thinks they should have fewer rights than everyone else simply because they are not white? Well how could I explain to my kids why grandma thinks their family should have fewer rights because their parents are gay?)

If I were marrying a black man/Jew/Catholic and my family made clear that they felt this was an abomination and that my relationship was inferior to theirs and that said marriage should be illegal, I don't think anybody on the DIS would be indicating that I was closed minded if I did not want to be around the family member who thought that about me. Why is it that people only expect gay people to be open minded about homophobia, but no one asks Jews to be open minded about anti-Semitism or blacks to open minded about racism?

I do think in some situations that one can support a person whom one *morally* disagrees with. The older members of my family don't think sex before marriage is a great choice. They still love their grandkids who shack up before marriage all the same. But I'm not talking about *moral* disagreement--I'm talking about wanting the law to make something *illegal*. (I've never met a person who thought that sex before marriage should be illegal.) How can a person who is out marching against gay marriage and donating to the cause one day come to a gay wedding the next day? How could they truly be happy for the coupler when part of their political agenda involves preventing couples like that from doing what they are doing? What would they write on the card "I'm so happy that you are happy on your special day. Of course, I've worked long and hard to make sure your happy day would never come because I think your having this happy day ought to be illegal because it's going to destroy society. But forget that--I'll donate to a cause working on getting your marriage rights rescinded tomorrow. For today I support you 100%! Don't be surprised, though, if your marriage doesn't last very long, because I'm going to do my best to have it declared invalid by a court. Congratulations!"

*That* is what I don't get. I'm not talking about a situation in which a family member dislikes the person that their gay relative is marrying. That is not what opposition to gay marriage is about. It's not about the marriage partner being a bad person and it's not about the marriage being a bad choice. It's about thinking that the couple does not deserve the same rights and relationship recognition that others do.

I actually work in moral philosophy on the concept of moral respect. And yes I think you can respect someone even when you disagree with them. But no, you cannot respect a person when you advocate denying them basic human rights.

MTE - and like I posted before If I were gay, I don't think I'd actually have many friends who want to create laws to deny me rights.

The "I don't agree with their 'life style' choice" argument makes me want to vomit. I can't believe in this day and age anyone still believes being gay is any more a 'choice' than being straight is.

 

[Family Fun Mom]

Where did this claim about open-mindedness come from. I've never claimed to be open-minded. I am NOT open-minded about people being treated as *legally* inferior to others simply because they are a disliked minority. (Are you open minded about that? Do you have family members who donate $ to bring back racial segregation and you just shrug it off and say "Oh well, Grandma thinks differently than I do." What if your children were mixed-race--how could you possibly explain to them that Grandma thinks they should have fewer rights than everyone else simply because they are not white? Well how could I explain to my kids why grandma thinks their family should have fewer rights because their parents are gay?)

If I were marrying a black man/Jew/Catholic and my family made clear that they felt this was an abomination and that my relationship was inferior to theirs and that said marriage should be illegal, I don't think anybody on the DIS would be indicating that I was closed minded if I did not want to be around the family member who thought that about me. Why is it that people only expect gay people to be open minded about homophobia, but no one asks Jews to be open minded about anti-Semitism or blacks to open minded about racism?

I do think in some situations that one can support a person whom one *morally* disagrees with. The older members of my family don't think sex before marriage is a great choice. They still love their grandkids who shack up before marriage all the same. But I'm not talking about *moral* disagreement--I'm talking about wanting the law to make something *illegal*. (I've never met a person who thought that sex before marriage should be illegal.) How can a person who is out marching against gay marriage and donating to the cause one day come to a gay wedding the next day? How could they truly be happy for the coupler when part of their political agenda involves preventing couples like that from doing what they are doing? What would they write on the card "I'm so happy that you are happy on your special day. Of course, I've worked long and hard to make sure your happy day would never come because I think your having this happy day ought to be illegal because it's going to destroy society. But forget that--I'll donate to a cause working on getting your marriage rights rescinded tomorrow. For today I support you 100%! Don't be surprised, though, if your marriage doesn't last very long, because I'm going to do my best to have it declared invalid by a court. Congratulations!"

*That* is what I don't get. I'm not talking about a situation in which a family member dislikes the person that their gay relative is marrying. That is not what opposition to gay marriage is about. It's not about the marriage partner being a bad person and it's not about the marriage being a bad choice. It's about thinking that the couple does not deserve the same rights and relationship recognition that others do.

I actually work in moral philosophy on the concept of moral respect. And yes I think you can respect someone even when you disagree with them. But no, you cannot respect a person when you advocate denying them basic human rights.

I know plenty of people who are against gay marriage but never met a single person who donated money or marched against it. You seem fixated on that. Your average person isn't that politically motivated. I think when you are a very political person it's hard to remember that most people simply are not.

So, yeah, I think your average Grandma who was raised to believe homosexuality is a sin should be cut some slack. I cut them slack on a lot of issues. I try to be understanding of how hard it must be for them. They come from a different time, a different era. They were taught differently and it's very hard to change that after 50 or 60 or more years of living. If that grandma (or aunt, or mom, or whatever) loves you enough to want to be there when you get married even though they don't agree with the lifestyle, that is a good thing. You would think that would be seen as a sign of "progress."

I really don't get this all or nothing way of thinking. Do you really only associate with people who share your exact views? I'm quite conservative but actually have very few conservative friends. I can't imagine shutting people out of my life because we hold differing views on subjects, even ones I am very passionate about.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

Is there anybody who feels that love is a bad thing (between adults)?

I feel like breaking out in song - what the world needs now, is love sweet love

All love should be celebrated and I really cannot understand why what people do in their bedrooms is cause for legislation/discrimination.

I would go to the wedding and bring a gift and prepare for a night of fun!

"Those" people really can dance and party.

PS - I give great gifts and would love to be invited to RickinNY wedding!

 

[Family Fun Mom]

Hey Hilarie (cool name).

Grandmas are off limits.

Seriously, if one of my family members was opposed on a core level, then I would tell that person, I thanked them for their level of acceptance and attempt and release them from the need to be present. I would tell them that I knew they were "trying" and that was all that mattered.

I've come to a point in my life you see, where it is critically important to be perfectly clear on such matters.

Friends are people we choose (unlike biological family) to share our lives with. I cannot imagine having a true friend who could not accept my marriage and be gloriously happy for me. Do I believe that friendship can come out of a relationship that first featured resistance and lack of understanding? Absolutely, but the relationship would have had to progress beyond that before I would be comfortable having that person witness what was to be perhaps the most significant moment in my life.

Hard line? Yep. It's a place I have to be right now.

I do like discussing this with you! You have very valid points and I thank you for caring enough to share them with us here.

Thank you. I feel the same way about you. You just proved yourself to be even cooler than I thought.

 

[kellyg403]

While I am not opposed or for the gay marriage thing, I know that I would support my good friends/family no matter what their choices are. Just like I would hope that out of love and kindness they would do the same for me if they did not like one of my choices. But, I would hope our relationship is strong enough for me/them to say no if they did not want to.

Every person has to do what they feel is best in the situation at hand for themselves. I really don't understand a lot of things because I try to not be judgmental. Its the best and most Christian thing I can do IMHO.

Its a tough call for some I imagine.

Kelly

 

[c4a]

I've been wondering with all of the news about Prop 8 and the insistence of numerous people (both in the news and on the DIS) that they love gay people (and have plenty of gay friends/family) and are pro-civil union, but they don't think same-sex couples should be able to be *married.*

So I'm curious what a person like this does when one of their gay friends/family members sends a wedding invitation. Will you attend/send a present/send good wishes only if the event is labeled "commitment ceremony" or "civil union" but not "wedding" or "marriage ceremony"? Do you go/send a gift, but give a card which does not actually acknowledge that they are getting *married*?

I'm curious because I was thinking of my two good friends of mine (both female) who got married this summer in a non-legal religious/spiritual ceremony. Though certainly they would not call anyone who didn't support their equal rights a "friend" (and hence wouldn't be inviting those people to their wedding anyway), family is another story. They did not poll their extended family about their feelings on same-sex marriage as far as I know--they just sent out the family invitations the same way the average straight couple does, with some of the extended family not ever having met the fiance. I would think it's likely that some of those extended family members didn't support same-sex marriage. None of them, though, made this known as they all sent "Congratulations on your Marriage" type cards (except for the parents of one of the women who refused to come and had always refused to acknowledge her partner in he best and who told her that she was ruining their lives by doing this to them--they made their feelings known, but I don't think there's a card that says that!).

So when you are in that situation, what do you do? Do you send a card/give a gift acknowledging a marriage that you don't in fact acknowledge? Or do you send a card/gift that doesn't actually mention marriage? What about after the wedding--when introducing your gay friends to other friends do you say, "This is Sally and her wife Jane?" Or do you refuse to use the terms "wife" "spouse" "husband"?

Perhaps in Hallmark's new line of same-sex wedding related cards there is one which says "I'm totally happy that you found someone to spend your life with, but I can't attend because you insist on calling it 'getting married.' But best wishes anyway!" which would apply to this situation?

Since Kentucky does not legally accept homosexual civil unions/marriages, the people in our area call them commitment ceremonies. I do not know anyone, though, who does not view it as the couple are married. (It is the courts who do not view it as such). This year, I have been to 2 and have another one coming up Dec.24. I won't be attending that one...simply because I oppose the date chosen (It's Christmas Eve for crying out loud. Family before friends. I will send a gift & card, though.)
I am not sure if how I address the couples when introducing is/isn't correct. None have said they were offended. If female, I say this is ...and her wife... If male,I say this is...and his husband... I don't ask (or need the opinion) the opinion of the person I am introducing my friends to...they can accept the fact that they are wonderful, caring, people who just happen to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex or not.
The ceremonies have been extremely similar to the ceremonies of straight people. Attire, and obviously the fact that it is two people of the same sex are the only differences. When Gayle and Krista got married, both had their parents walk them down the aisle, both wore white dresses, male friends standing up were on one side, female on the other, did the vows, had the kiss. The reception was the same.
I go because my feelings are irrelevant. It is the bride's (or groom's day). I love them as my friends. I want them to be happy, to be with someone who appreciates them for all the reasons I do, to have a family, and someone to share life with. Being gay is only one aspect of who they are.

 

[vt_disney_fan]

To the OP - I would simply decline and not go. If they were close friends of mine, they'd probably already know my stance, and we'd of probably already discussed it long before an invitation.

 

[daisax]

Hey, let's pretend the internet existed during segregation: do you think this thread would be about what to do if invited to an inter-racial wedding? Now that would be pretty silly, wouldn't it?

My mother's brother married a Protestant and that put her Catholic family in a bit of a predicament, since it was the mid-50s and my grandfather was active in the Knights of Columbus. They all went, anyway.

In my grandmother's day, the Irish Catholics and the Italian Catholics intermarrying was something of a scandal!

I love that more and more barriers to gay marriage are falling every day, and sad when new ones go up. It will be the central civil rights struggle of this century, I suppose.

 

[BusyMom2Three]

My mother's brother married a Protestant and that put her Catholic family in a bit of a predicament, since it was the mid-50s and my grandfather was active in the Knights of Columbus. They all went, anyway.

In my grandmother's day, the Irish Catholics and the Italian Catholics intermarrying was something of a scandal!

I love that more and more barriers to gay marriage are falling every day, and sad when new ones go up. It will be the central civil rights struggle of this century, I suppose.

Funny what is scandalous to some, huh? A good friend of mine left her Catholic church just 6 years ago when her priest told her that her child was a bast@rd (apparently this gets starred out if I dont use characters) because she had married someone of a different Christian denomination.

It is strange to me what is scandalous to some, and how people don't recognize that in a decade or a few decades, their desire to restrict basic civil liberties in regards to gay marriage will be considered as archaic and ignorant as slavery, anti-semitism, segregation, and the opposition to inter-racial and inter-faith marriages were viewed in the past.

 

[mom2boys77]

My brother and my favorite uncle are both gay. It doesn't really matter how I feel about their lifestyle or who they are with, I love them and of course would go and share in their happy day.

 

[Uncle Remus]

I always wonder how the "gay lifestyle" is different from the heterosexual lifestyle when marriage is most certainly the lifestyle that folks are seeking when they get married, isn't it?

 

[djm99]

I was kind of in this same situation. I'm not necessarily opposed to Gay Marriage but I'm not for it either. I really don't commit because I don't think it's any of my business. Anyway, DH didn't want to go to the Wedding of my Aunt. I had to remind him how wonderful she has been to us in previous years. He went. It was interesting. Although the WHOLE family "opposed" this union - EVERYONE showed up. There was even this big meeting about if we should show. It was a no brainer for me. My Aunt didn't nor would she had missed my wedding, so I wasn't going to miss hers. It was her day. Very few stayed for the 'party' after the formal reception, but we all showed our faces, kissed both of the brides, welcomed her into our family, had dinner and cake. Besides, I'd been to so many wedding that I thought were doomed before they ever started. That one will probably last forever.

ETA: My family had this meeting because my Aunt was a Nun. She left the church and kind of changed so quickly.

 

[BusyMom2Three]

I really don't get this all or nothing way of thinking. Do you really only associate with people who share your exact views? I'm quite conservative but actually have very few conservative friends. I can't imagine shutting people out of my life because we hold differing views on subjects, even ones I am very passionate about.

This is tricky to me, and I am honestly trying not to sound sarcastic or flippant. Would you associate with someone who believed in other historic forms of oppression, like slavery, or withholding African-Americans' and women's rights to vote? I feel like by doing this, I would be as bad as an abolitionist befriending a slaveholder. I saw Maya Angelou give a talk on tv a few years ago, and she said that, when encountering bigotry, if you say nothing and merely engage the person as a friend, you are as bad as they are. I kind of agree with this where human rights violations are concerned, such as the oppression of people's basic rights--be it the right to vote, marry, own property, not be considered property, what have you. I can be cordial to a person who I know is a bigot--I am not saying anyone in particular here is--but I could not be close friends with them. Now, if the issue was one of less importance, not of human rights violations, then most certainly. I have friends of diverse backgrounds, but no one I call a true friend is racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, sexist, and so forth.

 

[koolaidmoms]

This is tricky to me, and I am honestly trying not to sound sarcastic or flippant. Would you associate with someone who believed in other historic forms of oppression, like slavery, or withholding African-Americans' and women's rights to vote? I feel like by doing this, I would be as bad as an abolitionist befriending a slaveholder. I saw Maya Angelou give a talk on tv a few years ago, and she said that, when encountering bigotry, if you say nothing and merely engage the person as a friend, you are as bad as they are. I kind of agree with this where human rights violations are concerned, such as the oppression of people's basic rights--be it the right to vote, marry, own property, not be considered property, what have you. I can be cordial to a person who I know is a bigot--I am not saying anyone in particular here is--but I could not be close friends with them. Now, if the issue was one of less importance, not of human rights violations, then most certainly. I have friends of diverse backgrounds, but no one I call a true friend is racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, sexist, and so forth.

The problem is when they are your family. As a woman who had a "wedding" to another woman 15 years ago we invited our entire families and left it up to them to make the decision for themselves. We let them know we would have loved for everyone to share in our day but we felt it was up to them to make that decision. DPs has 6 brothers and sisters. Of those, 2 families did not attend at all and in one family only the parents attended even though all were invited. We were the family scandal for years.

Over the course of time all have come around. DPs sister who she did not talk to for 4 years because of our ceremoney was at the birth of our DD. She brought my MIL and just happened to be at the foot of the bed when the baby arrived. In one moment years of anger and hurt melted away on both sides. You never know when the moment will arrive that the door opens to teach and heal. SIL is now working as an advocate at a center for disablility rights and works with many gay people. She even called us for help when they wanted to set up a benefits plan for "unmarried" couples.

Though we did not "stand up" to the family members we quietly refused to go away. We continued to participate in family events, invite them for holidays and such. Over time their fear turned to understanding and then acceptance. You can not accept something you don't understand.

 

[c4a]

I always wonder how the "gay lifestyle" is different from the heterosexual lifestyle when marriage is most certainly the lifestyle that folks are seeking when they get married, isn't it?

me, too. Both hetrosexuals and gays date. Both have people who are promiscuous...and others who aren't.

Of course,I don't look at marriage being the piece of paper. Imo, it is the committment to the relationship & to one another, a promise made to each other before others that through thick or thin...

The marriage license is something totally different. That is a state sanctioned piece of paper saying it is legal to share property, etc.

More upsetting to me than the non-legalization (giving of the paper) in states, is that their are couples out there who do not feel that they have a solid enough support within their family and friends. A feeling that if something were to happen, their family and their friends would not stand up and help fight for the rights of the surviving spouse.
That is almost as sad to me as the ones who feel that they cannot be themselves with their family and friends. That hiding away living in shame and fear of what the people they care about might think.