Well That's Disappointing.

[digskat]

I don't have any problem with two tiered health care. Canada already has a tiered health care system, if you consider that the availability of health care in the "have" provinces vs the "have not" provinces. To be able to walk into a clinic any day of the week, most nights until 9 or 10 PM, and be able to get bloodwork and xrays is a perk of living in a big city in Ontario that is not available in small town Nova Scotia or Newfoundland. That is a fact. If somebody wants to open a private facility and let people who can afford it pay cash, by all means. That means less people in the public system and shorter wait times for treatment. I don't see it as buying better treatment, I see it as buying faster treatment, which ultimately pays off be speeding up treatment times and freeing up facilities for everyone else.

Want to borrow my glasses?

That is hardly a two-tiered system, it is just a further example of how have-nots get shafted, and it has nothing to do with a public/private split in Ontario. Would you like another straw to grasp at?

You never answered the question. If you were offered more money to work in a more controlled environment, would you take it? It has already happened with alot of Doctors and Nurses, who ran for the money in the states. If the government opened up this option, their would be an exodus of doctors and nurses from the public system, lured by better money, and more control. The lines in the public system wouldn't shorten, because the lack of providers would even out the reduced seekers. It would just create another have/have not situation. We already have this in our legal system, the better the lawyer, the more money they can charge. If a wealthy person commits a crime, they get the best lawyer money can buy (and usually get minimal consequences), but if a 'have not' commits a crime, they get a legal aid defender, usually a fresh faced kid or a lawyer who can't get clients. We have it in other clinical fields, where clinicians flock from public service to private practice, because the money is better. The two-tiered system we have for geriatric care has worked wonders for the have-nots, government run facilities are under-staffed and under-funded, with the same waiting lists, while private run facilities for the 'haves', are much better.
By the way, the government doesn't regulate the hourly rate for lawyers, counsellors, etc, and don't limit the monthly costs of private nursing homes. Call me silly, but I don't agree with benfits for the wealthy, at the cost of the average Ontarian.

 

[F4disneyfan]

Well after years and years and years of voting the wife and I finally gave up we didn't feel there was a party or a platform that was even worth the effort this time around they all sickened me. I had every local candidate and their party call every day leading up to the election asking if we knew where the polling station was and offering us free cab rides at their expense to go and vote for them etc. I am sorry but I can think of much better uses for the money they would have spent on cab rides or car service for getting people to and from polling stations. I can only hope that our next federal election has something substantial in the agenda to make it worthwhile voting for someone.

 

[FayeW]

That is hardly a two-tiered system, it is just a further example of how have-nots get shafted, and it has nothing to do with a public/private split in Ontario. Would you like another straw to grasp at?

You never answered the question. If you were offered more money to work in a more controlled environment, would you take it? It has already happened with alot of Doctors and Nurses, who ran for the money in the states. If the government opened up this option, their would be an exodus of doctors and nurses from the public system, lured by better money, and more control. The lines in the public system wouldn't shorten, because the lack of providers would even out the reduced seekers. It would just create another have/have not situation. We already have this in our legal system, the better the lawyer, the more money they can charge. If a wealthy person commits a crime, they get the best lawyer money can buy (and usually get minimal consequences), but if a 'have not' commits a crime, they get a legal aid defender, usually a fresh faced kid or a lawyer who can't get clients. We have it in other clinical fields, where clinicians flock from public service to private practice, because the money is better. The two-tiered system we have for geriatric care has worked wonders for the have-nots, government run facilities are under-staffed and under-funded, with the same waiting lists, while private run facilities for the 'haves', are much better.
By the way, the government doesn't regulate the hourly rate for lawyers, counsellors, etc, and don't limit the monthly costs of private nursing homes. Call me silly, but I don't agree with benfits for the wealthy, at the cost of the average Ontarian.

I am not grasping at straws at all; I believe that some Canadians having access to health care that is not available to all Canadians is the epitome of a two tiered system. At least with private health care, it would be available to any Canadian willing to pay for it.

The American system is hardly the model that should be emulated. They have a capitalist society, while we have more socialist leanings. Private health care can still be regulated.

To answer you question, sure, if I am going to make more money in a better working environment of course that's what I would prefer. However, since we have no idea what the fee/compensation structure in a private clinic would be there is no reason to believe that a doctor or nurse in a private clinic would make any more money than they make now. The difference would be that they would collect the fee at time service was rendered and not have to be wait to be paid out by OHIP.For all we know, the fee could be the same.

 

[palmickey2005]

The worst thing I hate about Dalton is that he implemented the health tax because they needed the money and then gave themselves a $40,000 pay increase (not the $1 an hour I usually get) and on top of that they gave (I believe it was a Cricket club) 1 million dollars when they asked for I think only $100,000 so excess money sits in their bank account gaining interest because they can't spend it all. It's rediculous!

Why didn't we have a referundum on their pay raise?

Yes, this health tax ........Are there really any improvements in hospital emergency wait times or anything else this was suppose to improve ?

 

[digskat]

The worst thing I hate about Dalton is that he implemented the health tax because they needed the money and then gave themselves a $40,000 pay increase (not the $1 an hour I usually get) and on top of that they gave (I believe it was a Cricket club) 1 million dollars when they asked for I think only $100,000 so excess money sits in their bank account gaining interest because they can't spend it all. It's rediculous!

Why didn't we have a referundum on their pay raise?

We should have had a referendum on this travesty, just like we should have in 2001. But how do you feel about Tory stating he wouldn't even consider rolling it back? Perhaps it is because the Tories originally initiated the action (Bill 25 in 2001), and there were only 6 dissenting votes at that time, all by the NDP. The raise in 2006 was $22 000/year. In 2002, the Tories promoted a raise of $8000 in year 1, with a total raise of 36% (a shade over $25 000) over 4 years. Eves panicked at the fallout, and quickly asked the Integrity Commisioner (who they hired originally to promote the raise) to consider postponing the hike. McGuinty followed up on Osbourne's recommendation, with again, only Hampton's NDP MPPs voting against it.
While Harris/Eves were extolling the necessity of this raise, they were claiming fiscal restraint, and denying public servants any raise. Eves' reps even went public with the comment "No one gets more than a 1-2 % raise anymore", and " how can we tell the taxpayers that we granted our employees a raise?"

$1M is also pocket change compared to Harris' taxbreaks for pro-sports franchises (which he originally denied), Development Funds (that developed private golf courses for his buddies), and donations to the Arts. He bought votes, Dalton bought votes, Peterson bought votes, Eves bought votes....its what they do best.

 

[digskat]

I am not grasping at straws at all; I believe that some Canadians having access to health care that is not available to all Canadians is the epitome of a two tiered system. At least with private health care, it would be available to any Canadian willing to pay for it.

The American system is hardly the model that should be emulated. They have a capitalist society, while we have more socialist leanings. Private health care can still be regulated.

To answer you question, sure, if I am going to make more money in a better working environment of course that's what I would prefer. However, since we have no idea what the fee/compensation structure in a private clinic would be there is no reason to believe that a doctor or nurse in a private clinic would make any more money than they make now. The difference would be that they would collect the fee at time service was rendered and not have to be wait to be paid out by OHIP.For all we know, the fee could be the same.

Not willing, ABLE!!!!
No reason to believe that these people wouldn't see raises, and fees wouldn't be more? As I have shown with our legal system, our geriatric care, our counselling services, and our rehabilitative services, it already does happen. The have society gets better service because they can pay for it, and this would be no different. Give a doctor a choice between control over his billing, getting his money immediately, and controlling his clientele, or the public system, where they wait for pay, have little to no control of equipment and patients, and they will jump for the private system. The public system will be manned by interns, near retirees, and a few good hearted souls.

We have a more socialistic society, but a two-tiered healthcare system is another step in the wrong direction. So was Tsubouchi's slash and burn of social services. So is the FCP's promotion of eliminating minimum wage, maximum work weeks, and manditory holidays.

 

[digskat]

Yes, this health tax ........Are there really any improvements in hospital emergency wait times or anything else this was suppose to improve ?

For this one, I have to actually credit McGuinty (no I didn't vote for him), I have seen a new medical clinic, a new walk-in clinic, a new ambulance bay, renovations to the local emergency deartment, a new dialysis machine (so patients don't have to travel 150 km for service), and a CT scanner on the way. We have had 3 new doctors come to the area (still too few), and we actually have had full time nurses hired.

 

[Buzz & Woody]

Oh Please! If you actually believe there's a politician out there who isn't a liar, thief,etc. you're already wearing rose coloured glasses!

Hmmm, well said from someone that really doesn't know. My dh was is politics, my SIL and FIL are both in Politics too-they are not liars or theiefs, they do their job and they do their ob WELL!-because the LIKE it!

 

[Sharptooth]

I do not see the improvements in our healthcare. It took our daughter 2 months to get her results back from her pap smear test. She has cervical cancer. It took 9 days for her GP to get an appointment with a specialist. It is now going to be 11 WEEKS before she can see the specialist. What improvements??????

 

[nosnobunny2006]

Well after years and years and years of voting the wife and I finally gave up we didn't feel there was a party or a platform that was even worth the effort this time around they all sickened me. I had every local candidate and their party call every day leading up to the election asking if we knew where the polling station was and offering us free cab rides at their expense to go and vote for them etc. I am sorry but I can think of much better uses for the money they would have spent on cab rides or car service for getting people to and from polling stations. I can only hope that our next federal election has something substantial in the agenda to make it worthwhile voting for someone.

I'll try to say this in the kindest way I can and with all due respect. But..... IMO if you don't vote, you forfeit all your rights to complain about anything that government does.

I completely understand your feeling that there were no competent candidates. My DH and I also felt this way, however we voted for the least objectionable candidate. Is it ideal? Of course not but it is reality.

Beth

 

[nosnobunny2006]

Hmmm, well said from someone that really doesn't know. My dh was is politics, my SIL and FIL are both in Politics too-they are not liars or theiefs, they do their job and they do their ob WELL!-because the LIKE it!

Municipal level, right?

 

[OntFamily]

I guess disappointed isn't quite the right word to describe how sickened I am that 43% of Ontario voters chose to re elect a liar and a thief, instead of voting for a man of integrity. .

I did vote for a person of integrity. I voted Liberal.

 

[OntFamily]

That's disgraceful! Sometimes I wish that John Tory and Howard Hampton were a little less scrupulous, and had lowered themselves to the smear tactics and fear monger of the McGuinty camp. Maybe the result would have been different. Good for those men to stand up for what they believe in.

Maybe you watched different TV ads than me. I thought all parties (inc PC, Liberal, and NDP) resorted to smaer tactics and fear mongering.

 

[OntFamily]

Tory DIDN'T focus on it, the Liberals did! Even after John Tory said "the people have spoken, we will have a free vote in the legistature" the Liberals still focused on it, when it was no longer an issue.

No one put a gun to John TOry's head, and forced him to continue to talk about the issue. He brought it on himself. He even was talking about it today, in POST election interviews....

 

[FayeW]

No one put a gun to John TOry's head, and forced him to continue to talk about the issue. He brought it on himself. He even was talking about it today, in POST election interviews....

I am willing to bet that he didn't just grab a microphone and immediately start talking about faith based funding. I would wager he was talking about it because that is the only thing the reporters ever asked him about. They asked him questions and he responded. That's the way interviews work.

 

[FayeW]

I did vote for a person of integrity. I voted Liberal.

Perhaps the person who's name you checked off on your ballot has integrity, but if you voted for Dalton McGuinty, you voted for a liar and a thief. He made promises to get elected, and broke them almost immediately. That makes him a liar. He took $32 Million dollars (that we know about) and gave it away to groups who either didn't ask for it or who asked for less. As far as I am concerned, he stole that money from the taxpayers of this province. He stole it from the sad faced children he put in his ads who he claimed needed the funding for their education. He stole it from the sick who are waiting for family doctors, nurses and more equipment. He stole it from the families of more than a 1000 autistic children who are currently waiting for treatment.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

I'll try to say this in the kindest way I can and with all due respect. But..... IMO if you don't vote, you forfeit all your rights to complain about anything that government does.

I completely understand your feeling that there were no competent candidates. My DH and I also felt this way, however we voted for the least objectionable candidate. Is it ideal? Of course not but it is reality.

Beth

The non-voter has forfeited nothing by not voting (we still live in a democracy and, despite the Elections Ontario ads to the contrary -- non voters do not give up their rights by not voting), and the voter has gained nothing by wasting their vote on a "least objectionable candidate."

The correct response in either case would have been to present yourself to the poll clerk on election day and formally decline your ballot. 2631 people thought it an appropriate way to vote in 2003. 20795 did so in 1990 when the NDP under Bob Rae won the election.

 

[Jackie Psarianos]

Liars:

As far as I'm concerned, they all lie. Part of the percentage of non-voters were folks that couldn't get to the polls because of physical limitations due to illness or disability. We need to remember that.

For the rest, what's the excuse? Okay, maybe some are at Disney, LOL. COLOR]

 

[disyady]

I do not see the improvements in our healthcare. It took our daughter 2 months to get her results back from her pap smear test. She has cervical cancer. It took 9 days for her GP to get an appointment with a specialist. It is now going to be 11 WEEKS before she can see the specialist. What improvements??????

My thoughts are with your daughter and your family.

 

[nosnobunny2006]

Perhaps the person who's name you checked off on your ballot has integrity, but if you voted for Dalton McGuinty, you voted for a liar and a thief. He made promises to get elected, and broke them almost immediately. That makes him a liar. He took $32 Million dollars (that we know about) and gave it away to groups who either didn't ask for it or who asked for less. As far as I am concerned, he stole that money from the taxpayers of this province. He stole it from the sad faced children he put in his ads who he claimed needed the funding for their education. He stole it from the sick who are waiting for family doctors, nurses and more equipment. He stole it from the families of more than a 1000 autistic children who are currently waiting for treatment.

Well you'd better get used to it for the next 4 years......at least.

Beth