Welcome To The Real World, Kiddies

[Rence]

I work in IT - when I started with my current company over 20 years ago - we had a business dress code. Men had to wear suit and tie - even though we spent most of the day sitting in a cubicle. Over the next few years, there was a bit of an IT boom in our area and companies were having trouble attracting new employees. Most of the other companies in our area went to business casual. Our executive management was old school and really resisted it but middle management was pointing out that it was hurting with recruiting. A qualified candidate might get three or four job offers with comparable salary and benefits. The other companies were business casual - with our company they would have to buy suits, pay for dry cleaning etc. Folks just weren't accepting our job offers. Finally, management persuaded the executives to consider business casual.

We were a large company, about 3,000 employees, in multiple offices around the city. The executives decided to have a six month "trial" of business casual at one of the small offices. So if you were lucky enough to work in that office you got to dump the suits and dress casually. We were happy that change was coming, but the "trial" seemed rather pointless. This wasn't something cutting edge or anything - most other companies had already gone business casual years ago.

Two months after the trial started - we had our annual all-company meeting at a local sports arena. Most of the 3,000 plus employees attend to hear a pep talk from our executive team. At one point in the meeting - the CEO took questions from the floor. One brave soul asked the question "With regards to the business casual trial - what is that you hope to learn over the next four months that you haven't learned over the previous two?" The CEO was speechless. The question was very professional, very pointed and the CEO had absolutely no response. He just went on to the next question.

Two things came out of this - the next day a memo went out company wide that the whole company was business casual effective immediately. And for subsequent all-company meetings questions were never taken from the floor, they had to be submitted in advance.

 

[tvguy]

I think another factor is, are you in contract with the public at work.
We had 2 people in shorts ,tee shirts and flip flops at work today, one a man, and one a woman. But they are hidden from public view.

 

[JimMIA]

Two things came out of this - the next day a memo went out company wide that the whole company was business casual effective immediately. And for subsequent all-company meetings questions were never taken from the floor, they had to be submitted in advance.

That's actually a very good solution to both problems!

 

[PlutoPony]

This article has sparked good discussions with my son, a senior in engineering. He's interned in an engineering firm the last 2 summers and the dress code is business casual - i.e. nice pants (Dockers) and dress shirt or nice polo. Sperry Topsiders are ok for shoes. Jeans are fine if you're working in the field. No one pushes the envelope, but he has no idea if this is a formal, written policy or not. One of his friends is in Computer Science/Engineering and has done a couple different internships. His dress codes have been anything goes...this summer he's wearing shorts and flip flops. Much different environment

Interestingly, he's going to his (social) fraternity's national convention shortly and the dress code is sports coat, shirt + tie, nice pants.

 

[GaryDis]

polos tucked into their pants

It used to be that men's polos had long tails for tucking in and stayed tucked. Some still do, but most don't. For those who wear polos in non-business situations, the untucked look is growing. When I was working in a business casual environment a few years ago, I never tucked my polo. Frankly, it looks better on most men who've outgrown their boyish high school physiques (think Best Buy).

That doesn't mean all business casual environments need to switch to untucked or even just permit it as an option. Just that businesses must stay in tune with changing fashion, and be prepared to change, just as that example of the experiment with business casual was forced to change. Otherwise we'd all be forced to keep wearing those outlandish 3 1/2 inch wide ties that were once the norm.

The more I read this thread, the happier I am that I spent most of my career in software, where the only dress code (for the male side) was nothing obscene, no cutoffs, and no tank tops. Shoes optional except in the cafeteria. I'm even happier now that I work at home; I do much less laundry by not wearing a shirt most days.

 

[Aliceacc]

I don't think we can plead ignorance.

They knew exactly what was expected; they just didn't like it and wanted to change the expectations.

I think it was a matter of not understanding that they were not the ones in the position to make those changes. They assumed that they knew more than the people in charge, and that they were the very first people smart enough to come up with this brand new idea.

My guess is that they also had their eye on that gorgeous corner office.

 

[Clifton Tesh]

I once turned down a job because of the dress code. There wasn't anything wrong with it, it's just I knew I wouldn't be comfortable wearing what was required all day, and I'm not going to be uncomfortable at work.

I don't wear suits, it's not who I am, sports coats are too restrictive, and I have excessive damage done to my knees and leg muscles from my time in the Marine Corps. I can not wear hard soled shoes for extended periods of time, I have to have something with a cushioned sole and insert.

I was 22 when I turned down that job. I knew what was required of the job because I asked in the interview and I politely told the man doing the interview

"I appreciate you taking your time to interview me today, but due to medical reasons I can not adhere to the dress code."

He shook my hand and told me he appreciated me being up front with him, if anything came up in a position that doesn't require a suit and dress shoes he would definitely call me back

He called me back about 4 or 5 months later but I had a job I loved by then.

ETA- my whole point was, you know what you're getting into before you get into it. You can't go into a situation agreeing to the way things are and then think you're going to change it.

For every position open there's probably 100 or more applicants. If you don't like the way things are ran, they'll get rid of you and find someone that does.

This is one thing I stress in my daughter every day. She's only 9, hopefully by the time she's 20 she will understand this.

 

[Disney Dynamite]

No matter what a company's dress code is, it seems like there's always one person who just doesn't get it. My current employer has a business casual dress code but allows jeans on Fridays. There could potentially be clients in our office at any time, so they expect us to look reasonably nice and put together. One of my former co-workers thought the dress code didn't apply to her. She routinely wore printed leggings with sheer blouses (that didn't cover her bum), sundresses that weren't even remotely appropriate for an office, and blouses with revealing necklines. We were once asked to dress conservatively for a meeting with a potential client, and she showed up in a sequined top and ratty sandals. This woman was in her forties and liked to brag about her extensive work experience, so the concept of adhering to a dress code shouldn't have been new to her.

I was fortunate to have a professor who gave me the rundown of what was and was not appropriate when I saw her to sign off on my internship, but even if she hadn't, so much of it was common sense. My first summer internship led to a second internship and eventually my first "real" job because the company I interned for really liked me. I can't imagine blowing that opportunity because I couldn't handle something simple like the dress code.

 

[Monykalyn]

wo things came out of this - the next day a memo went out company wide that the whole company was business casual effective immediately. And for subsequent all-company meetings questions were never taken from the floor, they had to be submitted in advance.

Just goes to show that company executive often make decisions with flawed reasoning and that that "front line" staff are valuable people that should be listened to. While it may have taken longer to get the more relaxed dress code it was done through the right channels and for sound reasons - something the interns failed to grasp. My department did something similar a few years ago when we wanted to be able to wear scrubs (we were the ONLY clinical professionals who weren't allowed at the time). Management was very conservative/old school and I really think they had zero idea what we actually did...Hospitals are overrun with rules and regulations-some needed some just silly. I always ask what the end goal is and what they hope to achieve when our department is tasked with yet a new policy/procedure etc. 99% of the time we already have something in place doing just what the ivory tower business exec wants-those execs, however, do NOT like to be asked their reasoning and just want blind obediance (even when they have zero idea of what is going on). Plus if we already have things inplace then the ivory tower idiots can't put a check next to their box and make it look like they did something new LOL.

 

[DisneyMommyMichelle]

I don't think I've ever seen a more perfect argument for a "dislike" button.

YES!

 

[ariel71]

Dear DISboards Owners, Developers, and Moderators ("The Dis"),

The writer and (assumed but don't know for sure) 48 Likers of Post #11 ("Petitioners", "we", "our", etc.) hereby request the development of a "Dislike" button. While Petitioners have no official standing with DISboards.com, our thoughts and opinions are paramount to its success and therefore should be held in the highest regard. Our arguments are as follows:

1. Having a "Like" option without a "Dislike" option is discriminatory. It requires a Petitioner to spend time quoting and rebutting in order to express an opinion. Likers have only to make a single click, thereby having the ability to express an opinion with much less effort and in far greater numbers than Petitioners. Therefore all users are not represented equally.

2. Other social media forums and websites have incorporated the means to "downvote" posts. Because all website environments are essentially the same, what is appropriate for one must be appropriate for all. The Dis will lose users to other websites if it does not embrace new ideas and functionality equivalent to and at the exact same time as all other technology platforms.

3. Because there is no ability to offset Likes with Dislikes, certain users receive more Trophies than they have truly earned. This is unfair and a very one-sided means of evaluating performance. Petitioners demand that The Dis manually subtract trophy points from any user if a Petitioner has expressed an opinion that would have been considered a Dislike had that option been available to Petitioner.

4. It is the responsibility of The Dis to explain every decision to us. Because The Dis has not done so, it must not have any real reasons for limiting our expression.

Because this petition has been written professionally like examples we have learned about in school, our arguments are thought out and well-reasoned, and we have never been led to believe that we are in anything but equal standing with our "superiors" regardless of experience or position, this request for a Dislike button should be immediately enacted. Any unfavorable consequence shall be met with disbelief and appeal.

Sincerely,
Petitioners (even though we know nothing about running a website)

 

[dreiwhit]

I wouldn't have fired them. However, I would have called them all together and "explained" things to them.

One thing that i've learned in all my years of working is that college and high school really do an absolutely poor job of preparing people for the workforce. They concentrate on the academics and not on the expectations, behavior and norms of the working world. And to be honest, the minimum wage jobs I had prior to graduation didn't prepare me for working in a professional office environment.

I've tried to unofficially mentor people going from the high school/college world to the professional world, and including some of the things they should know, but do not.

 

[DizBelle]

95% of the criminal justice interns I placed at my Uni job were in unpaid positions. I'm sure other industries have more paying internships, but unpaid remains very common in many fields.

I believe whether or not an internship must be paid varies by state.

 

[sam_gordon]

Dear DISboards Owners, Developers, and Moderators ("The Dis"),

The writer and (assumed but don't know for sure) 48 Likers of Post #11 ("Petitioners", "we", "our", etc.) hereby request the development of a "Dislike" button. While Petitioners have no official standing with DISboards.com, our thoughts and opinions are paramount to its success and therefore should be held in the highest regard. Our arguments are as follows:

1. Having a "Like" option without a "Dislike" option is discriminatory. It requires a Petitioner to spend time quoting and rebutting in order to express an opinion. Likers have only to make a single click, thereby having the ability to express an opinion with much less effort and in far greater numbers than Petitioners. Therefore all users are not represented equally.

2. Other social media forums and websites have incorporated the means to "downvote" posts. Because all website environments are essentially the same, what is appropriate for one must be appropriate for all. The Dis will lose users to other websites if it does not embrace new ideas and functionality equivalent to and at the exact same time as all other technology platforms.

3. Because there is no ability to offset Likes with Dislikes, certain users receive more Trophies than they have truly earned. This is unfair and a very one-sided means of evaluating performance. Petitioners demand that The Dis manually subtract trophy points from any user if a Petitioner has expressed an opinion that would have been considered a Dislike had that option been available to Petitioner.

4. It is the responsibility of The Dis to explain every decision to us. Because The Dis has not done so, it must not have any real reasons for limiting our expression.

Because this petition has been written professionally like examples we have learned about in school, our arguments are thought out and well-reasoned, and we have never been led to believe that we are in anything but equal standing with our "superiors" regardless of experience or position, this request for a Dislike button should be immediately enacted. Any unfavorable consequence shall be met with disbelief and appeal.

Sincerely,
Petitioners (even though we know nothing about running a website)

 

[CPanther95]

3. Because there is no ability to offset Likes with Dislikes, certain users receive more Trophies than they have truly earned.

I've been here 16 years and haven't received a single trophy.

I'm taking my ball and going home.

 

[QueenIsabella]

I don't know if this one action "deserved" a firing or not, but clearly, someone at the company thought it did. Or, it's also possible that this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Another thing to consider is, the petition was probably drawn up on company time, using company materials (computer, paper, etc.). You know, time when the workers should have been performing their assigned duties. My guess is, the boss chose to fire the lot of them to send a strong message about their entitled, snotty attitude. I'm not sure it worked--I can see the ex-interns huddled in a bar, asking each other if they seem snotty and entitled: "Do I come across snotty?" "Nope!" "You, either!"