"We don't need no stinking badges"!.... unless you live in Iran?

Papa Deuce said:
Link to your version?

Sorry I can't give you a link as I read it in one of our local papers, the Telegraph Journal. It was a Canadian Press story written by Alexander Panetta. To quote a part of it:

"But western journalist based in Iran said they knew of no such law being passed. And Iranian politicians - including a Jewish legislator in Tehran- were infuriated by the Post report, which they said was false.

Politician Morris Mutamed, one of about 25,000 Jews who live in Iran, called the report a slap in the face to his minority community.

"Such a plan has never been proposed or discussed in parliament." Mr. Motamed told the Associated Press.

"Such news, which appeared abroad, is an insult to the religious minorities here."

Another Iranian legislator said the newspaper has distorted a bill he presented to parliament, which calls for more conservative clothing for Muslims.

"It's a sheer lie. The rumours about this are worthless," Emad Afroogh told Associated Press.

Mr. Afroogh's bill seks to make women dress more traditionally and avoid Western fashions. Minority religious labels have nothing to do with it, he said."


There is more to the story but that is the gist of it.
 
Oh good, now the righteous can stop worrying about badges in Iran while they buy more electronics to support the Chinese as they kill religious dissidents.
 
Interesting:

OTTAWA, Canada (Reuters) -- A Canadian newspaper apologized Wednesday for an article that said Iran planned to force Jews and other religious minorities to wear distinctive clothing to distinguish themselves from Muslims.

The National Post ran the piece on its front page Friday along with a large photo from 1944 that showed a Hungarian couple wearing the yellow stars that the Nazis forced Jews to sew to their clothing.

The story, which included tough anti-Iran comments, was picked up widely by Web sites and by other media.

"Is Iran turning into the new Nazi Germany? Share your opinion online," the paper asked readers Friday.

But the National Post, a longtime supporter of Israel and critic of Tehran, admitted Wednesday it had not checked the piece thoroughly enough before running it.

"It is now clear the story is not true," Douglas Kelly, the National Post's editor in chief, wrote in a long editorial on Page 2. "We apologize for the mistake and for the consternation it has caused not just National Post readers, but the broader public who read the story."

The article was based on a column by Iranian expatriate writer Amir Taheri, who said a law being debated by Iran's parliament would force Jews to sew a yellow strip of cloth to their clothes. Christians would wear a red strip while Zoroastrians would wear a blue one.

Iranian lawmakers, including the country's sole Jewish parliamentarian, have flatly denied the National Post story, saying there is no mention of discriminatory measures against religious minorities in a new dress code bill.

The article and column appeared at a time when the international community is pressuring Tehran over its nuclear program.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also has sparked fears in the international community by denying the Holocaust, in which the Nazis killed 6 million Jews, and by calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

Asked about the Post story last week, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Iran "is very capable of this kind of action." He added: "It boggles the mind that any regime on the face of the Earth would want to do anything that could remind people of Nazi Germany."

A spokesman for Harper said the prime minister had started off his comments with the words "if this is true."

But Iran summoned Canada's ambassador to Tehran to explain Harper's remarks, a diplomat said Wednesday.

"Ambassador Gordon Venner was summoned on Sunday afternoon, May 21," a Canadian diplomat said.

Diplomatic relations between Ottawa and Tehran have been icy since 2003 when Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi died in custody in Tehran. Ottawa also has consistently taken a robust line on Iran's disputed atomic program.
 
PaulaSB12 said:
Israel was formed by a group of people deposing people from their land by force and removing citizenship and calling them non human, and if you are thinking of that "agreement" that Arrafat refused to sign he ws right to they would have a a bit of a country where all roads where controlled by Israel all governemnt propety would be controlled by Israel and all water is controlled by Israel and its a matter of fact confirmed by the uN that palestinian water has routinely been contanimated by raw sewage, women being refused medical intervension in childbirth until they sign a form refusing their babies from being allowed Israeli citizenship.

Well, that's one version of the story of the founding of the State of Israel -- however wrong and anti-Semitic it might be. The poster should do a little bit of research -- her post shows just how dangerous a little bit of knowledge can be.

1. Arabs were not forced out of the State of Israel by the Israelis. They were encouraged to leave by the Arab countries attacking Israel in May 1948 so that the Jews could be completely wiped out. The Arabs who fled the Israeli state were given promises by the attacking Arabs that they would be able to return to Israel and claim the land given to the Jews by the United Nations. The attacking Arabs were wrong and lost the war -- just as they have lost every war they have prosecuted against Israel since then.

2. Not all Jews in Israel in 1948 were European refugees. There were many, many who were born in Palestine.

3. The only Middle Eastern state where Arabs are guaranteed the vote -- Israel. Israel has enshrined the minority rights of Arab Israelis within its Basic Law and reserved seats in the Knesset solely for representation by Arab Israelis.

4. The only Israeli citizens not required by law to serve in the military -- Arab Israelis. They are welcome to join the IDF, however the Israeli government has recognized the difficult situation many would face should they be required to fight against other Arabs.

5. The "aggressor" responsible for building water filtration plants, sewage treatment plants, hospitals, schools, colleges and universities, greenhouses and other basic services in the Gaza Strip, the Sinai and the West Bank -- that would be those nasty Israelis who thought it the right thing to do. The Jordanians never did anything about providing basic services to Palestinians in the West Bank. The Egyptians never did anything about providing basic services to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip or the Bedouin in the Sinai. Israel did something about it.

6. The people responsible for destroying greenhouses in the Gaza Strip which could have provided a working income for Palestinian farmers and the Palestinian Authority with income earned from the export of agricultural crops -- well that would be the Palestinians themselves. The Israelis unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip and left these high tech agricultural operations intact for the use of the Palestinian people. Palestinian militants thought it would be fun to destroy their opportunity for a future. How true it is that the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

7. What was the alternative to signing the agreement which would have provied the Palestinians with 95% of the land they were demanding from the Israelis? Arafat released terrorists held in Palestinian jails and set them lose to carry out the Second Intifada -- a wave of terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens in nightclubs; those celebrating the high holidays in hotels with senior citizens; those enjoying a bite to eat in a roadside cafe in Jerusalem; Israeli citizens riding the bus to work; and others who fell victim to suicide bombs, rocket attacks launched from Palestinian controlled territory (attacks usually launched from Palestinian Christian neighbourhoods by Islamist militants too cowardly to launch the attack from their own neighbourhood), and sniper attacks.
 

sodaseller said:


Not false either. Many (if not most) Arabs went willingly because of the promises made by invading armies as well as fear of the Israelis. Very few were actually forced out at gunpoint.
 
RoyalCanadian said:
Well, that's one version of the story of the founding of the State of Israel -- however wrong and anti-Semitic it might be. The poster should do a little bit of research -- her post shows just how dangerous a little bit of knowledge can be.

1. Arabs were not forced out of the State of Israel by the Israelis. They were encouraged to leave by the Arab countries attacking Israel in May 1948 so that the Jews could be completely wiped out. The Arabs who fled the Israeli state were given promises by the attacking Arabs that they would be able to return to Israel and claim the land given to the Jews by the United Nations. The attacking Arabs were wrong and lost the war -- just as they have lost every war they have prosecuted against Israel since then.

2. Not all Jews in Israel in 1948 were European refugees. There were many, many who were born in Palestine.

3. The only Middle Eastern state where Arabs are guaranteed the vote -- Israel. Israel has enshrined the minority rights of Arab Israelis within its Basic Law and reserved seats in the Knesset solely for representation by Arab Israelis.

4. The only Israeli citizens not required by law to serve in the military -- Arab Israelis. They are welcome to join the IDF, however the Israeli government has recognized the difficult situation many would face should they be required to fight against other Arabs.

5. The "aggressor" responsible for building water filtration plants, sewage treatment plants, hospitals, schools, colleges and universities, greenhouses and other basic services in the Gaza Strip, the Sinai and the West Bank -- that would be those nasty Israelis who thought it the right thing to do. The Jordanians never did anything about providing basic services to Palestinians in the West Bank. The Egyptians never did anything about providing basic services to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip or the Bedouin in the Sinai. Israel did something about it.

6. The people responsible for destroying greenhouses in the Gaza Strip which could have provided a working income for Palestinian farmers and the Palestinian Authority with income earned from the export of agricultural crops -- well that would be the Palestinians themselves. The Israelis unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip and left these high tech agricultural operations intact for the use of the Palestinian people. Palestinian militants thought it would be fun to destroy their opportunity for a future. How true it is that the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

7. What was the alternative to signing the agreement which would have provied the Palestinians with 95% of the land they were demanding from the Israelis? Arafat released terrorists held in Palestinian jails and set them lose to carry out the Second Intifada -- a wave of terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens in nightclubs; those celebrating the high holidays in hotels with senior citizens; those enjoying a bite to eat in a roadside cafe in Jerusalem; Israeli citizens riding the bus to work; and others who fell victim to suicide bombs, rocket attacks launched from Palestinian controlled territory (attacks usually launched from Palestinian Christian neighbourhoods by Islamist militants too cowardly to launch the attack from their own neighbourhood), and sniper attacks.

ITA. Well done and thanks for posting! :sunny:

The Palestinian terrorists have only themselves to blame for the living conditions of Palestinians. May these cowardly terrorists rot in hell.

And Arafat won a peace prize??? Murdering dog. :furious:
 
sodaseller said:

Would you care to post the Noam Chomsky version? Feel free to quote from "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." I'll be very disappointed if you don't invoke the blood libel.
 
punkin said:
Not false either. Many (if not most) Arabs went willingly because of the promises made by invading armies as well as fear of the Israelis. Very few were actually forced out at gunpoint.

It's a shame the same cannot be said of the over 600,000 Jews forced out of their homes throughout the Arab world in 1947 and 1948. They arrived destitute, but they were absorbed into the society and became an integral part of the state of Israel.

Coincidentally, about 500,000 Arabs fled the newly formed state of Israel to make room for the Arab invaders. Those 500,000 Arabs have been used as pawns by the Arab League. While the Jewish refugees became full Israeli citizens, the Arab refugees remained "refugees" according to the wishes of the Arab leaders.
 
RoyalCanadian said:
Would you care to post the Noam Chomsky version? Feel free to quote from "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." I'll be very disappointed if you don't invoke the blood libel.
How about the Benny Morris version? When your points are at the level of informed that JER agrees with you, you should be embarrasssed. Your stuff coudl come out of FLAME. It's an embarrassment to true supporters of Israel
 
punkin said:
Not false either. Many (if not most) Arabs went willingly because of the promises made by invading armies as well as fear of the Israelis. Very few were actually forced out at gunpoint.
True, but the Panglossian version posted here is propoganda. Truth can be tolerated. I know you know that
 
sodaseller said:
How about the Benny Morris version? When your points are at the level of informed that JER agrees with you, you should be embarrasssed. Your stuff coudl come out of FLAME. It's an embarrassment to true supporters of Israel

Would you care to debunk the apparent myths? As for FLAME -- don't read either their emails or their website.
 
sodaseller said:
How about the Benny Morris version? When your points are at the level of informed that JER agrees with you, you should be embarrasssed. Your stuff coudl come out of FLAME. It's an embarrassment to true supporters of Israel

Ah Soda, you rarely miss a chance to insult me.

Royal Canadian argued and supported his case well. :thumbsup2

Enlighten us (and how about a few props to "peaceman" Arafat).
 
sodaseller said:
How about the Benny Morris version?

Even Benny admits that the Arab leadership both inside and outside of Palestine had a great deal to do with creating the exodus of Arab refugees from the newly formed State of Israel. He says so right on p. 289 of his book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Crisis .
 
RoyalCanadian said:
Would you care to debunk the apparent myths? As for FLAME -- don't read either their emails or their website.
Why don't you actually look it up since you are the one that thinks you know what you are talking about. I even gave the hint to the scholar most responsible for getting out the facts - Benny Morris. If you followed the issue even minutely, you would know what I'm referring to. But since I know you won't, here's a peice he did in TNR, that hotbed of Israel bashing, in response to Mearshimer and Walt - http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060508&s=morris050806&c=4

Here's his Wikipedia bio - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris
The son of Jewish immigrants from England, Morris was born in Kibbutz Ein HaHoresh and was a member of the left-wing HaShomer HaTza'ir youth movement. In 1988, he was imprisoned for refusing military service in the West Bank town Nablus.

Morris received his doctorate from Cambridge. For a number of years, he was the diplomatic correspondent of the Jerusalem Post.

Morris is currently professor of history at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Be'er Sheva. In 2005, he has also been teaching at the University of Maryland in College Park.

[edit]
Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem
In his book of 1988; The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949, on the origins of the Palestinian refugee problem, Morris argues that the approximately 700,000 Palestinians who fled from their homes in 1947 left mostly due to Israeli actions or fear of Israeli actions, but not as the result of a preexisting expulsion plan. This was at the time a controversial position, as the official position in Israel had been that the Palestinians left voluntarily or after pressure/encouragement from Palestinian or outside Arab leaders.

At the same time Morris documented atrocities on the part of the Israeli armed forces, including cases of rape, torture, and ethnic cleansing.

In the beginning of the book Morris shows a map over empty Palestinian villages, and explains why the villagers left. 228 villages were evacuated due to attack from Jewish forces. In 41 villages the inhabitants were expelled by military forces. In 90 villages the inhabitants were stricken with panic due to attack on other villages, and fled. In only 6 villages the inhabitants left because the local Palestinian authorities told them. He was not able to find out why another 46 villages were emptied.

In the 2004 book; The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, he changes his perspective, and place the major responsibility for the creation of Palestinian refugees on Jewish military groups. According to Morris, these groups massacred far more Palestinians than has been known earlier. He also writes that expelling Palestinians was a goal that was shared with main Jewish leaders at the time. Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, gave orders to destroy Palestinian villages in 1948, according to the Israeli politician Aharon Cohen. In this 2004 version, Morris underlines that Jewish leaders, also before Israel was created, wanted as few Arabs/Palestinian in the areas they were conquering as possible. They wanted for demographic reasons as many Palestinians to flee as possible.
And now to the issue of transfer and expulsion. It is true, as Mearsheimer and Walt observe, quoting me, that "the idea of transfer is as old as modern Zionism and has accompanied its evolution and praxis during the past century." But once again the matter is complicated, and the problem of who said and did what, and where, and when, and why, is all-important. This complexity has proved too great for Mearsheimer and Walt to handle.

Zionist leaders, from Herzl through Ben-Gurion and Weizmann, between 1881 and the mid-1940s, occasionally expressed support for the "transfer" of Arabs, or of "the Arabs," out of the territory of the future Jewish state. But three salient facts must be recalled. First, the Zionist leadership throughout never adopted the idea as part of the movement's political platform; nor did it ever figure in the platforms of any of the major Zionist parties. Second, the Zionist leaders generally said, and believed, that a Jewish majority would be achieved in Palestine, or in whatever part of it became a Jewish state, by means of massive Jewish immigration, and that this immigration would also materially benefit the Arab population (which it generally did during the Mandate). Third, the awful idea of transfer was resurrected and pressed by Zionist leaders at particular historical junctures, at moments of acute crisis, in response to Arab waves of violence that seemed to vitiate the possibility of Arab-Jewish co-existence in a single state, and in response to waves of European anti-Semitic violence that, from the Zionist viewpoint, necessitated the achievement of a safe haven for Europe's oppressed and threatened Jews. Such a haven required space in which to settle the Jewish masses and an environment free of murderous Arabs: this, indeed, was the logic behind the Peel Commission's transfer recommendation.

Moreover, during the 1930s and 1940s, the espoused policy of the leader of the Palestinian Arab national movement, the Muslim cleric Haj Amin al Husseini, was frankly expulsionist about the Yishuv. He repeatedly stated that he was willing, in his future Palestinian state, to accommodate as citizens only those Jews who had been residents or citizens of Palestine up to 1917--say, 60,000 to 80,000 in all. When asked in 1937 by the Peel Commission what he intended to do with the 80 percent of the Jews who had been born in or come to Palestine after that date, he responded that time will tell. The commissioners understood him to mean that they were destined for expulsion or worse.

In other words, the surge in thinking about transfer in the late 1930s among mainstream Zionist leaders was in part a response to the expulsionist mentality of the Palestinians, which was reinforced by ongoing Arab violence and terrorism. The violence resulted in Britain's severely curtailing immigration to Palestine, thus assuring that many Jews who otherwise might have been saved were left stranded in Europe (and consigned to death), while at the same time foreclosing the traditional Zionist option and aim of achieving a Jewish majority in Palestine through immigration. Mearsheimer and Walt rightly take to task the anti-Arab terrorism of the Irgun in those years; but they omit to mention that the Irgun unleashed its bloody operations in response to Arab terrorism, and that in any case it represented only the fringe right wing of the Zionist movement, of which the mainstream--unlike the Palestinian Arab national movement--consistently rejected and condemned terrorism.

* * *

And, indeed, in 1947-1948 the Palestinian Arabs, supported by the surrounding Arab world, rebelled against the U.N. partition resolution and unleashed a bloody civil war, which was followed by a pan-Arab invasion. The war resulted in a large, partial transfer of population. The chaos that all had foreseen if Palestine were partitioned without an orderly population transfer in fact enveloped the country. But this is emphatically not to say, as Mearsheimer and Walt do, that the Zionists' occasional ruminations about transfer were translated in 1947-1948 into a overall plan and policy--unleashed, as they put it, when the "opportunity came," as if what occurred in 1948 was a general and premeditated expulsion.

It was only at the start of April, with its back to the wall (much of the Yishuv, in particular Jewish Jerusalem, was being strangled by Arab ambushes along the roads) and facing the prospect of pan-Arab invasion six weeks hence, that the Haganah changed its strategy and went over to the offensive, and began uprooting Palestinian communities, unsystematically and without a general policy. Needless to say, the invasion by the combined armies of the Arab states on May 15 only hardened Yishuv hearts toward the Palestinians who had summoned the invaders, whose declared purpose--as Azzam Pasha, the secretary-general of the Arab League, put it--was to re-enact a Mongol-like massacre, or, as others said, to drive the Jews into the sea. And yet Israel never adopted a general policy of expulsion (or incarceration--as did the United States in its internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II, without being under direct existential threat), which accounts for the fact that 160,000 Arabs remained in Israel and became citizens in 1949. They accounted for more than 15 percent of the country's population. From Mearsheimer and Walt, you would never suspect that the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem in 1948 occurred against the backdrop, and as the result, of a war--a war that for the Jews was a matter of survival, and which those same Palestinians and their Arab brothers had launched. To omit this historical background is bad history--and stark dishonesty. It is quite true, and quite understandable, that the Israeli government during the war decided to bar a return of the refugees to their homes--to bar the return of those who, before becoming refugees, had attempted to destroy the Jewish state and whose continued loyalty to the Jewish state, if they were readmitted, would have been more than questionable. There was nothing "innocent," as Mearsheimer and Walt put it, about the Palestinians and their behavior before their eviction-evacuation in 1947-1948 (as there was nothing innocent about Haj Amin al Husseini's work for the Nazis in Berlin from 1941 to 1945, broadcasting anti-Allied propaganda and recruiting Muslim troops for the Wehrmacht). And what befell the Palestinians was not "a moral crime," whatever that might mean; it was something the Palestinians brought down upon themselves, with their own decisions and actions, their own historical agency. But they like to deny their historical agency, and many "sympathetic" outsiders like to abet them in this illusion, which is significantly responsible for their continued statelessness.

It's a complex issue. Some like to make it simple, but it's not. But when you make crap charges like accusing anyone that done a even the minimum of reading and puts any facts out there of reading from the Protocols, you are promoting the same type of dishonest idiocy that infects this nation's current leadership
 
RoyalCanadian said:
Even Benny admits that the Arab leadership both inside and outside of Palestine had a great deal to do with creating the exodus of Arab refugees from the newly formed State of Israel. He says so right on p. 289 of his book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Crisis .
I see you actually did a little reading. I'm well aware of the facts you state. It's complex. Your original post was not
 
sodaseller said:
I see you actually did a little reading. I'm well aware of the facts you state. It's complex. Your original post was not

Please re-read my original post in its context -- debunking anti-Semitic arguments accusing Israel of tampering with Palestinian water supplies. Even left-wing websites such as those which regularly publish Noam Chomsky's articles readily admit that Israel has never tampered with the Palestinian water supply, even though they do shut off the hydro on occasion. The blind acceptance of all anti-Zionist reports has infected the world media -- witness the United Nations condemnation of the "Massacre of Jenin" -- a massacre that was proven to have never happened.

For far too long (since about 1948, I would estimate) Israel has been forced to live to a standard unlike that of any other nation on earth. In a newspaper interview with a major Canadian daily the former Canadian Prime Minister, Brian Mulroney, summed it up this way, "Israel is the new Jew."

For instance, that hydro was shut off in response to a Qassam rocket attack on Ashkelon. Approximately six rockets were fired from a soccer field and struck Israeli territory. No injuries. No fatalities. The Israeli response was measured -- air strike on the soccer field. The soccer field was empty. No injuries. No fatalities. International response -- FIFA, the International Football Association, condemned Israel's actions because it was an attack on a soccer field. FIFA has never condemned any nation in the world for any improper use of a soccer field. Afghanistan regularly held mass executions in soccer stadiums -- FIFA doesn't say a thing. Iraq tortured it's football team for not performing well at the Olympics -- the torture took place in the HQ of the Iraq Olympic Committee. FIFA doesn't say a thing. China holds executions in soccer stadiums. FIFA is silent. British teams leave Israeli nationals behind when they play tournaments in Arab nations -- FIFA does not protest to those Arab nations. Israel is forced to play World Cup qualifying matches against European nations instead of Asian countries. Those are the FIFA rules.

It's also FIFA policy to not get involved in international politics -- except when Israel is to be condemned.
 
sodaseller said:
It's a complex issue. Some like to make it simple, but it's not. But when you make crap charges like accusing anyone that done a even the minimum of reading and puts any facts out there of reading from the Protocols, you are promoting the same type of dishonest idiocy that infects this nation's current leadership

"...dishonest idiocy that infects this nation's current leadership."

:rolleyes: :rotfl:

Couldn't help yourself with a ignorant and unsupported name-calling shot against our President and his staff. Going with your strengths?
 
RoyalCanadian said:
Please re-read my original post in its context -- debunking anti-Semitic arguments accusing Israel of tampering with Palestinian water supplies. Even left-wing websites such as those which regularly publish Noam Chomsky's articles readily admit that Israel has never tampered with the Palestinian water supply, even though they do shut off the hydro on occasion. The blind acceptance of all anti-Zionist reports has infected the world media -- witness the United Nations condemnation of the "Massacre of Jenin" -- a massacre that was proven to have never happened.

For far too long (since about 1948, I would estimate) Israel has been forced to live to a standard unlike that of any other nation on earth. In a newspaper interview with a major Canadian daily the former Canadian Prime Minister, Brian Mulroney, summed it up this way, "Israel is the new Jew."

For instance, that hydro was shut off in response to a Qassam rocket attack on Ashkelon. Approximately six rockets were fired from a soccer field and struck Israeli territory. No injuries. No fatalities. The Israeli response was measured -- air strike on the soccer field. The soccer field was empty. No injuries. No fatalities. International response -- FIFA, the International Football Association, condemned Israel's actions because it was an attack on a soccer field. FIFA has never condemned any nation in the world for any improper use of a soccer field. Afghanistan regularly held mass executions in soccer stadiums -- FIFA doesn't say a thing. Iraq tortured it's football team for not performing well at the Olympics -- the torture took place in the HQ of the Iraq Olympic Committee. FIFA doesn't say a thing. China holds executions in soccer stadiums. FIFA is silent. British teams leave Israeli nationals behind when they play tournaments in Arab nations -- FIFA does not protest to those Arab nations. Israel is forced to play World Cup qualifying matches against European nations instead of Asian countries. Those are the FIFA rules.

It's also FIFA policy to not get involved in international politics -- except when Israel is to be condemned.

I agree wholeheartedly that Israel is subject to egregious double standards on every matter. It's maddening. And it's important to get the true facts out. But neither should supporters of the state gloss over any less than pleasant facts. Every nation has them, and in each instance, Israel's conduct will always compare favorably with its adversaries.

But that doesn't mean we should never admit the facts as they are, even if enemies with bad intentions misuse them. A maddening aspect of our debate in the US is that we cannot even hold yourself to any standard or permit any unfavorable act to see the light of day if an adversary could use it for propaganda. Israel has shown that is not the case. Sharon's role in the Sabra and Chatilla massacres was terrible. True, every Arab leader had done far worse. But that doesn't mean that a democratically elected government should not disclose it sins. It's a mark of internal strength. Israel did so in a public investigation. It's enemies have spouted those findings without accounting for their own far worse sins, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is that the Israeli electorate knew its leaders were accountable to Israeli moral standards, not the lowest common denominator of its adversaries

If you ever read a history on the Yom Kippur war, you will see that Egypt had an initial advantage that could have been pressed possibly defeating Israel as so many Arabs have dreamed about. But they moved slowly because Sadat could not trust his generals, as totalitarians rarely can. Israel eventually prevailed for many reasons (Sharon's daring for one), but mainly because it trusted its officers and granted them initiative. You can do that in a democratic state with electoral legitimacy. Legitimacy flows from openness, from truth, something our leader is now discovering to his regret. One can only waive the bloody flag for so long, eventually you lose legitimacy by being untruthful.

As for your post, I only responded to the one assertion I disagreed with. I think full candor might have shaded the others a bit differently, buit that was the only one clearly wrong. We largely agree, which is why I resented the remark about the Protocols.

I will say this. The claim that the water is being poisoned is BS. But the water rights issue is a vastly underappreciated aspect of the disputes, and was the closest thing to a legitimate objection to Barak's generous offer that Arafat rejected and instead resorted to violence. That said, it was not a reason to say no but instead to counteroffer on that point. They never even counteroffered. Returning to the double standard issue, have you ever seen any other "imperialist" that has been so castigated when it has done nothing but give away land for 20 years and seeks to give away more? The Palestinians deserve a state, and the Israelis would love to give it to them, but not if it means suicide
 
Soda, you claim that the issue is very complex; I agree with you and I am sure RoyalCanadian agrees with you. However, your entrance into this thread was to criticize one line in Royal's post claiming that Arabs were not forced of their land by Israel's army. Your response was just two words "not true." Well now that we have discussed it at length and shown that is was in fact, mostly true, you come back and say it is complicated.

If you want to deal with complicated issues with two word responses that play into the outright fabrications of the poster to whom Royal was responding, you have to be prepared to be tarred with the same brush.
 


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