Was closing DVC Resorts Legal?

[CarolMN]

I giggle a little every time this unfortunate (albeit perhaps appropriate) acronym is referenced.

OMG,,,do you know I never even thought of that?... I needed that today given the new NYS order to stay put.

Well I had to Google it.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

heck, I have always thought that. but perhaps because of Point Of Sale system being POS as well. Or that I'm not normal, that could be it as well.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Interesting question OP!

But hotels and resorts ARE closing, all over the country. Since Orlando is an international destination, and since timeshares by their very definition have an influx of guests and constant turnover, I think they absolutely had to close and deal with the ramifications later.

I believe in a ‘state of emergency’, that this will be found to be legal.

So far there hasn't been a lock-down state of emergency declared by the Federal Govt nor the FL Govt unless it just happened. There are many hotels and motels across the country that are still open. I know a few people that just in the past few days drove and while they did run into many that were closed there thankfully were those that were open and operating.

There are multiple reasons that Disney probably used to justify closing - some self serving ($$$'s, perception, a fear of legal) mixed a bit with it being done for the good of the population and their workers. However it was not mandated - it was a choice.

I get the legality discussion and its just a topic to be discussed by fans.

However, one issue with keeping the resorts open is they have to be staffed. If i made what a cast member made and was told to go to work (while all other cast members were at home, and unless this is changed, were getting paid) so people could use their time shares, i would gladly show them my absolute favorite finger. Furthermore, if I were on a jury and it was determined that a cast member got sick and died because of this, I would view DVC as criminally negligent and hold them accountable. And I am not some big business hater at all, so thats not just my default position toward big business.

Furthermore, even if they kept the resorts open, we would still have so many cancelled reservations that DVC would still have the logistic problems with the point imbalance.

The good question though is if one subset of owners should carry the price for the non-mandated closure or if it should be further spread out across the membership as other closures have been done when borrowed points were returned, banking deadlines were forgiven and sometimes banked points were given current year status and allowed to be banked. All of that has been done before.

Then when you consider that DVC allows itself to ignore banking deadlines for DVD's direct sales? That gets to be a pretty tangled web and it's difficult to argue it's fair to the currently affected owners when DVC takes advantage of their rules management to give themselves exceptions 365 days of the year.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Well I had to Google it.

All I get is Point of Sale, I will keep trying.

OK.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Kat, when we added on BWV direct, in January of 2005 (2004?), we were not able to bank. We have March UY. We wound up donating an OKW stay to a volunteer at Give the Kids the World.

 

[Donna M]

All I get is Point of Sale, I will keep trying.

OK.

Scroll down farther. I didn't know either

 

[bobbiwoz]

Scroll down farther. I didn't know either

TY

 

[CarolMN]

Use the urban dictionary. .

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Kat, when we added on BWV direct, in January of 2005 (2004?), we were not able to bank. We have March UY. We wound up donating an OKW stay to a volunteer at Give the Kids the World.

It used to be discretionary but for at least 5 years (probably a little longer) they made it a "rule" that it is allowed for new direct purchases. It is done without question.

 

[Sandisw]

It used to be discretionary but for at least 5 years (probably a little longer) they made it a "rule" that it is allowed for new direct purchases. It is done without question.

And with all the reading I am doing, it appears they get to follow different rules for the points that they own.

 

[TisBit]

Interesting question OP!



So far there hasn't been a lock-down state of emergency declared by the Federal Govt nor the FL Govt unless it just happened. There are many hotels and motels across the country that are still open. I know a few people that just in the past few days drove and while they did run into many that were closed there thankfully were those that were open and operating.

There are multiple reasons that Disney probably used to justify closing - some self serving ($$$'s, perception, a fear of legal) mixed a bit with it being done for the good of the population and their workers. However it was not mandated - it was a choice.



The good question though is if one subset of owners should carry the price for the non-mandated closure or if it should be further spread out across the membership as other closures have been done when borrowed points were returned, banking deadlines were forgiven and sometimes banked points were given current year status and allowed to be banked. All of that has been done before.

Then when you consider that DVC allows itself to ignore banking deadlines for DVD's direct sales? That gets to be a pretty tangled web and it's difficult to argue it's fair to the currently affected owners when DVC takes advantage of their rules management to give themselves exceptions 365 days of the year.

that has been my point. If no one booked or showed up. That imbalance would be on the membership as a whole. Yes places have closed but they are in a different class.

hotels and timeshares are not the same class in any way shape or form. I get the worry of an employee getting sick. But there is still staff at these closed resorts and that could still be a liability. I agree it looks good right now and makes sense. But, there is also a responsibility to the membership.

there are other options. Move all reservations to one resort. Encourage cancellation by waiving the holding account and communicating bare bones staff. Reduced housekeeping, etc. all of that would mitigate a lot and spread the effect across the membership.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

there are other options. Move all reservations to one resort.

You move me, I'd sue in a second. That would be total bait and switch.

DVC Leper Colony?

How would you like to be on a staff where literally 10s of thousands of people that are your peers are at home getting paid and you are told to go staff a hotel? If I got told that I would have 3 words for my boss, 2 of which are "go" and "yourself"
That is being pretty quick to put other people's life on the line, isnt it?

these people make peanuts.

I was in an unsafe work environment this week and I told my employer, fix it, or I will resign. And I make a lot more than 15 bucks an hour - and if i had to get a new job, Id be taking a pay cut if I can get one at all with the looming recession.

I also pay to be at a fully staffed resort. With ammentites. Pool, restaurant.

What about when the timeshare is in a hotel? Jambo House? Copper Creek?

Can you imagine if they did this and people died? You would not be able to get a cash room because they would all be filled with the lawyers suing Disney. Dinsey would be done from a PR stand point. That list of trusted brands......they would not make the top 1000.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

Wow. Making sure people don’t lose points or have a hard time booking vacations is more important than people’s lives. I don’t care if our trip gets cancelled this year or we have to book at 11 months to make sure we use our points next year if it means keeping the Disney staff safe.

 

[Sandisw]

that has been my point. If no one booked or showed up. That imbalance would be on the membership as a whole. Yes places have closed but they are in a different class.

hotels and timeshares are not the same class in any way shape or form. I get the worry of an employee getting sick. But there is still staff at these closed resorts and that could still be a liability. I agree it looks good right now and makes sense. But, there is also a responsibility to the membership.

there are other options. Move all reservations to one resort. Encourage cancellation by waiving the holding account and communicating bare bones staff. Reduced housekeeping, etc. all of that would mitigate a lot and spread the effect across the membership.

Maybe you should send an email to DVC and talk to management about it? And I am not being flip either,

They are usually pretty good at getting back. It may take a bit, but if you want a clear answer beyond what isnt in the POS, they are really the only ones who can answer,

In terms of workers, they are not employed by the association directly, so no one can force them to work if the people who they work for have decided to have them no report to work, So, some of your suggestions wouldn’t work. I have a DD who works for Disney in NYC, but the message was that they planned to reduce workforce all around the company and to be prepared to do as much from home as possible. They instituted some self quarantine rules as well, Lots behind the scenes going on in terms of the employees, which without them, a DVC resort can not remain open.

Sounds like DVCM was instructed to do so, in conjunction with Disney, so if it doesn’t count as legal shut down becsuse the government didn’t order them to..which I think Thats what you want to know...then the association would have to decide to take legal action against Disney.

In terms of other timeshares not shutting down, remember, they may have different terms within their contracts and guidelines.

I thought of another question though. Aulani has not been shut down, Why?

 

[TisBit]

I think a scenario may exist where a member has booked three or more weeks at Disney

You move me, I'd sue in a second. That would be total bait and switch.

DVC Leper Colony?

How would you like to be on a staff where literally 10s of thousands of people that are your peers are at home getting paid and you are told to go staff a hotel? If I got told that I would have 3 words for my boss, 2 of which are "go" and "yourself"
That is being pretty quick to put other people's life on the line, isnt it?

these people make peanuts.

I was in an unsafe work environment this week and I told my employer, fix it, or I will resign. And I make a lot more than 15 bucks an hour - and if i had to get a new job, Id be taking a pay cut if I can get one at all with the looming recession.

I also pay to be at a fully staffed resort. With ammentites. Pool, restaurant.

What about when the timeshare is in a hotel? Jambo House? Copper Creek?

Can you imagine if they did this and people died? You would not be able to get a cash room because they would all be filled with the lawyers suing Disney. Dinsey would be done from a PR stand point. That list of trusted brands......they would not make the top 1000.

I am sure all those workers at the grocery store and Walmart are super excited to be in their work environment! I think it is pretty hypocritical to say that we are so concerned about Disney employees, who are paid pretty well and still receiving pay checks and then say that some of the lowest paid employees should be in an EXTREMELY unsafe environment, with the general public wandering through the stores and contaminating literally everything. Yes, I know a lot of them, trust them they are not excited, especially going home to their wives and kids.

Again, there was a simple solution the Governor could (and maybe should have) shut down timeshares. Many other government leaders have, but he has not. Which puts this all very much outside of the normal of a timeshare operation, at least from what I have seen.

As for a bait and switch, interesting, so if you showed up while everything was shut down, you would be willing to sue, versus showing up and there is a closed sign? Talk about a bait and switch, owners have bought into he community, made reservations according the contracts in place and Disney has locked them out. Moving people to another resort and compensating any difference in points has actually happened in the past due to unforeseen rooms being put into maintenance.

And I have already addressed the fact that owner sign a ton of documents that specifically they are buying into get a room, that is it. Not a pool or restaurant or even a park next door. There is an interesting hiccup of what about cost sharing, I am not sure it would be impacted. There would be no real increase in cost. Disney is paying all of their employees during this time. Which brings in another whole legal question, are DVC owners now expected to cost share employee salaries that are not working and the resorts are closed? Thats a double whammy, so now owners are deprived from using their deeded rooms, but also expected to foot the bill for the staff to not be working.

 

[TisBit]

Maybe you should send an email to DVC and talk to management about it? And I am not being flip either,

They are usually pretty good at getting back. It may take a bit, but if you want a clear answer beyond what isnt in the POS, they are really the only ones who can answer,

In terms of workers, they are not employed by the association directly, so no one can force them to work if the people who they work for have decided to have them no report to work, So, some of your suggestions wouldn’t work. I have a DD who works for Disney in NYC, but the message was that they planned to reduce workforce all around the company and to be prepared to do as much from home as possible. They instituted some self quarantine rules as well, Lots behind the scenes going on in terms of the employees, which without them, a DVC resort can not remain open.

Sounds like DVCM was instructed to do so, in conjunction with Disney, so if it doesn’t count as legal shut down becsuse the government didn’t order them to..which I think Thats what you want to know...then the association would have to decide to take legal action against Disney.

In terms of other timeshares not shutting down, remember, they may have different terms within their contracts and guidelines.

I thought of another question though. Aulani has not been shut down, Why?

Correct and maybe in the end Disney will take responsibility and attempt to compensate DVC. I do think there are a few ways around this. But, also not all properties are jointly shared with Disney resorts. I know SSR and OKW definitely are independent DVC locations at WDW. Then Vero and HHI.

Heck, which brings up an interesting point. DVC ended up having to compensate original Vero beach owners, because the never completed the resort, resulting in the early purchasers having larger maintenance fees than expect. So, even in the instance,, DVC did not have sole discretion to reduce the resort size, they are not allowed to do as they wish according the POS.

 

[TisBit]

And again, this is a discussion. Maybe the Reedy Creek Improvement District does have the legal authority to close the resorts as a result of the state of emergency and they actually did do that. In which case DVC would be completely immune. But, I could only see that as a reason they closed, but every other timeshare in the county and most (if not all) the state is still in operation.

But that would not cover HHI, in a state that has implemented very few restrictions and I am not sure has even declared a state of emergency.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

I think a scenario may exist where a member has booked three or more weeks at Disney



I am sure all those workers at the grocery store and Walmart are super excited to be in their work environment! I think it is pretty hypocritical to say that we are so concerned about Disney employees, who are paid pretty well and still receiving pay checks and then say that some of the lowest paid employees should be in an EXTREMELY unsafe environment, with the general public wandering through the stores and contaminating literally everything. Yes, I know a lot of them, trust them they are not excited, especially going home to their wives and kids.

Again, there was a simple solution the Governor could (and maybe should have) shut down timeshares. Many other government leaders have, but he has not. Which puts this all very much outside of the normal of a timeshare operation, at least from what I have seen.

As for a bait and switch, interesting, so if you showed up while everything was shut down, you would be willing to sue, versus showing up and there is a closed sign? Talk about a bait and switch, owners have bought into he community, made reservations according the contracts in place and Disney has locked them out. Moving people to another resort and compensating any difference in points has actually happened in the past due to unforeseen rooms being put into maintenance.

And I have already addressed the fact that owner sign a ton of documents that specifically they are buying into get a room, that is it. Not a pool or restaurant or even a park next door. There is an interesting hiccup of what about cost sharing, I am not sure it would be impacted. There would be no real increase in cost. Disney is paying all of their employees during this time. Which brings in another whole legal question, are DVC owners now expected to cost share employee salaries that are not working and the resorts are closed? Thats a double whammy, so now owners are deprived from using their deeded rooms, but also expected to foot the bill for the staff to not be working.

< 15 $ an hour = "well paid"

I just cant

I would not show up if there was a closed sign.

And I agree about the grocery stores.....amazingly I doubt many owners are in there stocking the shelves.
It doesnt make it any safer but at least food is an necessity. not pampering spoiled adults

Could you ask your grocery store friends how they would feel if they had to work while the other store employees got paid the same amount to stay home, I am curious about that? They probably would be fine with it I imagine.

I guess I really just could not care less about POSSIBLY loosing a weeks worth of a time share and a few hundred bucks in such dire times.
Call me shallow.

 

[TisBit]

< 15 $ an hour = "well paid"

I just cant

I would not show up if there was a closed sign.

And I agree about the grocery stores.....amazingly I doubt many owners are in there stocking the shelves.

I guess I really just could not care less about POSSIBLY loosing a weeks worth of a time share in such dire times.
Call me shallow.

Sorry, I meant in comparison to other workers in the area.

And my point of the entire thread and discussion, is that if Disney can close these time share resorts now, outside of a government order, that would imply they can close them whenever they want, depriving owners whenever they choose. The law does not apply and not apply based on public sentiment, it applies and doesn't apply according to the actual law. During a state of emergency, the governor or county can close whatever they choose. Similarly they can institute a mandatory evacuation, making anyone full time renters, property owners, etc to vacate a given area. That has not happened, which means Disney and or DVC feel they have the power to close timeshares, which people have paid a LOT of money to buy into and maintenance fees every year at their own discretion. This is and should be very worrisome for owners.

I get it, questioning anyone right now of their decisions is not popular and we would all love for this to be over, but it doesn't mean that all laws are now irrelevant. Even in a state of emergency, there are very specific actions the president can or cannot take on a federal level and each state has laws about what the governor can and cannot do. Even if it is for a very good reason that they want to exceed them, they must still obey by the legal standard and framework set in place.

 

[Sandisw]

Correct and maybe in the end Disney will take responsibility and attempt to compensate DVC. I do think there are a few ways around this. But, also not all properties are jointly shared with Disney resorts. I know SSR and OKW definitely are independent DVC locations at WDW. Then Vero and HHI.

Heck, which brings up an interesting point. DVC ended up having to compensate original Vero beach owners, because the never completed the resort, resulting in the early purchasers having larger maintenance fees than expect. So, even in the instance,, DVC did not have sole discretion to reduce the resort size, they are not allowed to do as they wish according the POS.

Since then, they must have learned, but they have amended the contract. I just read something about all building doesn’t have to happen, and there are elements of Florida Timeshare Law too.

There is no evidence that what happened was a violation of our contract, So compensation from Disney, etc. would be based on that. And, as I said, the only way, as an owner, you can get that information is to ask DVC to provide you with the proof that they had the authority to close on their own.

You can continue to speculate, but I really think you should try to get your answer by contacting them Because even some of the language that I believe makes it a legal decision, you interpret differently.