Was closing DVC Resorts Legal?

[Sandisw]

I think you are also stuck in your opinion on the subject and that is fine. Time will tell, cause once everything settles down every actions and in action will be evaluated. But for the record, legal and responsible are two different things. And showing you were trying to be responsible, doesn't dissolve you of the legality of your decisions.

The New York example is where I actually say, yes, the Government should be clear and not make "suggestions".

Yes, I am stuck in my opinion but it is based in fact from exact language of the POS, If you can provide something that contradicts what I posted from the POS please feel free to share.

Every time I have quoted our actual document, you really have simply ignored it and not addressed it. You asked for whether it was legal, I quoted our contract that seems to have language that gives them the right to close the resorts.

No sense continuing as I have repeated myself way too much,

 

[Sandisw]

If we are being honest way to many people on here fall back to "Disney can do anything because you said you didn't have voting rights".

Do I think they should have closed? Yes

Do I think they should allowed any exceptions to banking and borrowing? No

Should Disney do something for those affected? Yes but they are not required to, something like a GC for points that expire that had a booked room which Disney cancelled I think is a good gesture.

If anything I think Disney needs to remember there are many many members and you can't throw out the rule book because of a terrible but recent event. Those member could have travel insurance but I can't by travel insurance for points in the future that are not even booked yet that could be impacted in ability to book rooms.

Exactly, This thread was about, I thought, whether they have the legal right to do what they did. From my reading of POS,I think they do,

I agree with you that other than holding, they should not have bent the rules for borrowing And banking beyond deadlines. The only reason I think removing holding was a good move is because it is allowing people, even those with banked points that can’t be returned, to at least book trips farther than 60 days from now, which IMO, helps them have an idea of future occupancy and what is yet to come,

 

[Sandisw]

And Disney being able to decide what is "responsible" independently of the Government directives, means they can decide independently not to reopen the resorts until it is beneficial for their business and bottom line. So, that really means they may lock owners out, long after states of emergencies are lifted and they start seeing enough bookings to decide it is worthwhile.

I really don't think they will do that, I think they desperately want to open as soon as possible. But, as a timeshare owner and being booked for the Star Wars Half Marathon, why cannot I decide to still use my timeshare that weekend, regardless if the parks are open or not? If the Federal Government has not restricted travel and the State of Florida has not restricted timeshares or hotel use at that time (and maybe they have started to roll back restrictions on other things), why can DVC legally stay closed.

I get it, we all support them being closed. I think it is a great idea, move people out as much as possible, protect employees, all of that is great. But, they do have a responsibility to be above board and protect the investments of all the owners. This can adversely affect the ownership interest of everyone involved and what those ripple effects will be we don't know.

My husband thought of this. We give Disney the right to run the resort, They are in charge of the workers who run the resorts, and therefore, based on the national state of emergency, have decided to let their workers stay home for their safety and safety of guests.

Again, they can’t operate negligently and close for the heck of it.

 

[TisBit]

Yes, I am stuck in my opinion but it is based in fact from exact language of the POS, If you can provide something that contradicts what I posted from the POS please feel free to share.

Every time I have quoted our actual document, you really have simply ignored it and not addressed it. You asked for whether it was legal, I quoted our contract that seems to have language that gives them the right to close the resorts.

No sense continuing as I have repeated myself way too much,

Sorry, it might have been lost in the thread. I understand what you quoted, but I do not believe them being able to make decisions about operations, grants them the authority to close a resort and lock owners out. I think it does allow them to change the operations of the resort, such as housekeeping, check in, etc. Even closing certain operations (such as online check in only vs a check in desk). Those are all operational decisions. Even taking rooms out of service for maintenance or upgrade (it does impact availability).

I cannot find anywhere in the POS that they had the authority to close the resort. I did other look at other timeshares that had to completely close due to a major construction project (usually a foundation issue) and the board was able to choose when it would close, but I cannot find anywhere that a timeshare has just closed its doors outside of major damage or Government intervention.

The fact the POS does not say they can or can't does not mean they have this right. It is just illogical that DVC could literally keep these resorts closed for years and the owners would not have any legal repercussions to prevent it. While this is extenuating circumstances, if they have the legal authority to do it now, it means the also have that authority even without a state of emergency or any reason at all. That is why I am stuck on the legality and not the moral question of if they should or should not. Because, if they have the legal right to do it at will then that is very alarming to me as an owner.

 

[TisBit]

And Sandisw I am fine disagreeing on it. I have enjoyed the discussion and you have brought up good points that I have had to research. I understand I have not shown you concrete where they can't do it, I have not seen anything concrete where they can do it. So, we will definitely wait and see. Hopefully this all ends very soon.

 

[Sandisw]

Sorry, it might have been lost in the thread. I understand what you quoted, but I do not believe them being able to make decisions about operations, grants them the authority to close a resort and lock owners out. I think it does allow them to change the operations of the resort, such as housekeeping, check in, etc. Even closing certain operations (such as online check in only vs a check in desk). Those are all operational decisions. Even taking rooms out of service for maintenance or upgrade (it does impact availability).

I cannot find anywhere in the POS that they had the authority to close the resort. I did other look at other timeshares that had to completely close due to a major construction project (usually a foundation issue) and the board was able to choose when it would close, but I cannot find anywhere that a timeshare has just closed its doors outside of major damage or Government intervention.

The fact the POS does not say they can or can't does not mean they have this right. It is just illogical that DVC could literally keep these resorts closed for years and the owners would not have any legal repercussions to prevent it. While this is extenuating circumstances, if they have the legal authority to do it now, it means the also have that authority even without a state of emergency or any reason at all. That is why I am stuck on the legality and not the moral question of if they should or should not. Because, if they have the legal right to do it at will then that is very alarming to me as an owner.

Keeping the resorts closed for no reason, for years would have to be considered negligence and the association would then have legal grounds to remove them And choose someone else to do it. It says they have the right to manage due to the terms of the Property Management agreement. We do not have the ins and out of that property management agreement, but I can’t imagine it doesn’t have a more detailed explanation of the specifics.

You are right, we differ in what we see and define as operation of the resort. Operation for me is the running of the resort and in charge of its opening and closing. You don’t. That is fair.

I think common sense dictates there has to be something guiding this, If not, how does a resort get closed when you have thousands of owners? We agreed to give up voting rights for a lot of things and management of the resort was one of them. That doesn’t mean they can act without regard to owners best and legal interests.

It seems you getting caught up on the fact that if this was a legal shut down, then it has to mean they can do it for whatever reason they want,

IMO, that it not what that means. It means for valid reasons and this would fall into that category.

 

[TisBit]

Keeping the resorts closed for no reason, for years would have to be considered negligence and the association would then have legal grounds to remove them And choose someone else to do it. It says they have the right to manage due to the terms of the Property Management agreement. We do not have the ins and out of that property management agreement, but I can’t imagine it doesn’t have a more detailed explanation of the specifics.

You are right, we differ in what we see and define as operation of the resort. Operation for me is the running of the resort and in charge of its opening and closing. You don’t. That is fair.

I think common sense dictates there has to be something guiding this, If not, how does a resort get closed when you have thousands of owners? We agreed to give up voting rights for a lot of things and management of the resort was one of them. That doesn’t mean they can act without regard to owners best and legal interests.

It seems you getting caught up on the fact that if this was a legal shut down, then it has to mean they can do it for whatever reason they want,

IMO, that it not what that means. It means for valid reasons and this would fall into that category.

I will say, I have worked in law enforcement for years and years and years and I love reading law. So I do get hung up on it. And I think that is why I do get hung up on it. Because if it is legal today, it is absolutely legal tomorrow, unless the documents are changed. I don't think he POS addresses it, because it is unheard of or was never conceivable. These timeshares and most around the world have never closed outside of the situations I have mentioned (government intervention or major damage outside of their control).

I use this example from law enforcement. You are walking down the street with your friend and they develop an allergic reaction and will die if you don't get them to the hospital. A deliver driver left their car running in the street, so you jump in it and run your friend the the the hospital. While your actions are morally and most would say ethically correct, the fact still remains you stole the car. The reason does not change anything about the legality of your actions. The owner can still press charges and the judge can find you guilty. You may have done the right thing, but you did break a law. Yes, most owners would not press changes when they find out why. Or if they still do, a judge give you a slap on the wrist and send you home. But, legal is legal.

 

[TisBit]

If the POS had a clause in it, that said "DVC reserves the right to cancel reservations or close the resort in the event of weather, pandemics, national emergencies or other unforeseen circumstances that jeopardizes the safety and security of the resort or owners", then I would completely see their legal justification. But I didn't see that and I haven't seen another situation in looking over the last two days where anyone has reported another timeshare doing this. Maybe Florida law gives them the right, which is why I started the the thread. Honestly, hoping someone had a solid answer that could be proven. I think it is a huge grey area and may be forgotten pretty quickly if these resorts open back up on April 1st.

A lot of people are losing points. They booked a room and then the resort closed and those points can't be banked because of UY's. Every example of not traveling close to your use year is more about if YOU have to cancel, not that suddenly the Resort is no longer available. If reservations are that fragile, it is very difficult to see the benefits of owning. Even trip insurance gets questionable, do you get anything if you didn't suffer a "loss". The points were returned to you, but you just couldn't reuse them.

 

[Sandisw]

I will say, I have worked in law enforcement for years and years and years and I love reading law. So I do get hung up on it. And I think that is why I do get hung up on it. Because if it is legal today, it is absolutely legal tomorrow, unless the documents are changed. I don't think he POS addresses it, because it is unheard of or was never conceivable. These timeshares and most around the world have never closed outside of the situations I have mentioned (government intervention or major damage outside of their control).

I use this example from law enforcement. You are walking down the street with your friend and they develop an allergic reaction and will die if you don't get them to the hospital. A deliver driver left their car running in the street, so you jump in it and run your friend the the the hospital. While your actions are morally and most would say ethically correct, the fact still remains you stole the car. The reason does not change anything about the legality of your actions. The owner can still press charges and the judge can find you guilty. You may have done the right thing, but you did break a law. Yes, most owners would not press changes when they find out why. Or if they still do, a judge give you a slap on the wrist and send you home. But, legal is legal.

But again, there are also laws that require them to act in good faith and not become negligent in what they do. If they had cart blanche to do things any way they see fit, they could be doing a lot of things now that would be detrimental owners.

Sure, adding language for situations like this may be something that needs to happen, if the property management agreement that is in place doesn't already have it.

 

[Sandisw]

If the POS had a clause in it, that said "DVC reserves the right to cancel reservations or close the resort in the event of weather, pandemics, national emergencies or other unforeseen circumstances that jeopardizes the safety and security of the resort or owners", then I would completely see their legal justification. But I didn't see that and I haven't seen another situation in looking over the last two days where anyone has reported another timeshare doing this. Maybe Florida law gives them the right, which is why I started the the thread. Honestly, hoping someone had a solid answer that could be proven. I think it is a huge grey area and may be forgotten pretty quickly if these resorts open back up on April 1st.

A lot of people are losing points. They booked a room and then the resort closed and those points can't be banked because of UY's. Every example of not traveling close to your use year is more about if YOU have to cancel, not that suddenly the Resort is no longer available. If reservations are that fragile, it is very difficult to see the benefits of owning. Even trip insurance gets questionable, do you get anything if you didn't suffer a "loss". The points were returned to you, but you just couldn't reuse them.

Closing of resorts can happen for weather related. HH and Vero Beach were closed because of that not that long ago. When that happens, it is no different than what is happening now. People have reservations canceled, resorts are closed, and things have to happen which cause owners to lose points.

Like I said, we do not know if there is insurance that covers this. If they have business insurance, it talks about for interruption of resort operations. Check out that clause. I'd also try to check out the laws related to property management agreements and what rights owners have in relation to that.

Some DVC resorts are also run in conjunction with Disney hotels and share services. That plays a role I am sure. I am still in the process of reading the RIV POS. But, you are right, the language you typed does not exist and if that is what you need to see to prove they have legal authority, then I don't think it exists where DVC and DIsney are concerned.

ETA: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0721/Sections/0721.13.html

This is part of Florida Timeshare. It talks about the responsibilities of the management. While it may not discuss closing, it does discuss it has a responsibility to act in accordance with the law. Therefore, I would say that DVCM closing a resort on a whim, or for whatever reason they want, would probably violate this statue.

 

[as5848]

People took the risk of traveling too close to the end of their use year. That’s all this is. You assume a risk when you do that. Even if something were to happen to you personally, like some kind of accident where you couldn’t travel when you planned.

My use year is Feb. I should be leaving tomorrow for my welcome home trip. BUT when I called to cancel, I got all my points back immediately, 2019 banked AND use year points, no questions asked. I pretty much have the rest of the year to use them. I followed advice and planned a trip near the beginning of my use year.

People took the risk of traveling too close to the end of their use year. That’s all this is. You assume a risk when you do that. Even if something were to happen to you personally, like some kind of accident where you couldn’t travel when you planned.

My use year is Feb. I should be leaving tomorrow for my welcome home trip. BUT when I called to cancel, I got all my points back immediately, 2019 banked AND use year points, no questions asked. I pretty much have the rest of the year to use them. I followed advice and planned a trip near the beginning of my use year.

If Disney closes for 6 months due to the virus and you aren’t able to book a vacation before your 2019 points expire due to availability, are you at fault since you banked points instead of using them at the beginning of your use year? I borrowed points into 2019 to take my vacation and was told that I won’t get any of those 300 points back. I agree with others that me losing my points is nothing in comparison to what others will lose from this but you taking the high and mighty road that you did everything right isn’t very becoming or compassionate to your fellow DVC members.

 

[DougEMG]

But, they did not close hotels or rentals, so they cannot blame the Government. The groups greater than 10 is a guideline and has not been implemented as a mandate. They can claim State of Emergency for the parks, restaurants, etc. Even to cancel reservations for hotels, but DVC is different with "owners" and it was a choice they made. Same with a hurricane, if the resort is damaged or unsafe or mandatory evacuations are in place, that is totally different then them choosing to close the resorts.

And for the record, I am not saying someone should go sue about it right now, but what are the legal implications. Also, when everything is over and people have lost points or been impacted by this, every decision by the Government or in this case DVC will have to be looked at. If they stayed closed through July/August (I don't think they will, but some do) and the membership cannot use the points they have paid for is a big issue. Also, does this set a precedent that they can close the resorts whenever they want, for whatever reason. Again, there was no state or federal declaration that resulted in the closure of the resorts, this was solely done by DVC.

I had brought this same point up earlier. I can see the resorts closing if ordered to by the government, but if that hasn't happened why should they be closed. How is this different than people living in an apartment building and coming and going.

If the resorts are closed for a couple of weeks, then it might not be a big deal, but what if DVC keeps them closed for 3-4-5 months. As owners what are our rights?

 

[DougEMG]

I still disagree, yes a hotel is completely different and people staying in a hotel have not rights to staying in that hotel past the time the hotel wants them to leave.

But a time share has OWNERS, not renters. While they may be temporary, they do have deeds and own a portion of that resort. Depriving someone of use of something they own is a big deal. Again, every other time share in the state is open and available for their owners if they want to use it. If the Governor ordered the closure, that would definitely be a different story, as they would have been ordered closed as part of the state of emergency and then their liability would be removed, but resolution of the impact on the owners would still have to be worked out.

Interesting that other timeshares are open while DVC isn't open! That sounds strange.

 

[zavandor]

How is this different than people living in an apartment building and coming and going.

Because people must live somewhere. You cannot evict people from their apartment, where would you put them?

This is about mitigating the spread of a pandemic that could do hundres of thousands of deaths. I don't think the reality of the situation has already settled in: people who need intense care for Covid19 occupy a bed for 2 or more weeks. That's why hospitals are overwhelmed: it takes a lot of time to recover. If we don't slow it down, many more people will die, than the 1-2% that is reported being the fatality rate. And if all ICU beds will be occupied, then anyone else, with other problems, who need a bed will die because of the lack of beds.

People on this board know I've been quite critical with current management and I even threatened a class action, but in this case I really don't care if it's legal or not (I think it is). They did the right thing. People traveling rather than staying at home would increase the number of cases. There is no mandate in London, where I live, to stay at home, and yet I have been practicing social distancing since 3/10 anyway because it's the most responsible thing to do.
People will lose points, that's bad. People will die, that's tragic.

 

[lorenae]

I know what you are saying. But how is it different than a hotel that is not closed. Or another timeshare resort. I have not heard any other resorts closing. And while your apartment doesn’t have those things, there are a lot of apartments and condos that do. And Disney hasevery right to close the restaurant and pool and concierge. That is part of the contracts.

The question I started was is It legal. I know why they did it, but let’s say next year there is something else happening. Can Disney legally lock deeded owners from the property at their own discretion and prohibit them from using points?

But hotels and resorts ARE closing, all over the country. Since Orlando is an international destination, and since timeshares by their very definition have an influx of guests and constant turnover, I think they absolutely had to close and deal with the ramifications later.

I believe in a ‘state of emergency’, that this will be found to be legal.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

I get the legality discussion and its just a topic to be discussed by fans.

However, one issue with keeping the resorts open is they have to be staffed. If i made what a cast member made and was told to go to work (while all other cast members were at home, and unless this is changed, were getting paid) so people could use their time shares, i would gladly show them my absolute favorite finger. Furthermore, if I were on a jury and it was determined that a cast member got sick and died because of this, I would view DVC as criminally negligent and hold them accountable. And I am not some big business hater at all, so thats not just my default position toward big business.

Furthermore, even if they kept the resorts open, we would still have so many cancelled reservations that DVC would still have the logistic problems with the point imbalance.

 

[The Prophet]

For anyone questioning why WDW (and the resorts) are closed, please read the attached.
Very Sad ...

https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/california-man-who-recently-visited-disney-world-dies-of-coronavirus/

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Furthermore, even if they kept the resorts open, we would still have so many cancelled reservations that DVC would still have the logistic problems with the point imbalance.

And let's look at another math problem: Dues.

Disney closed the core resorts. In most cases, DVC members share the costs of the resort staffing with cash guests. While Disney is paying staffers (minus DCP, who got terminated) during closure, typically the equation for the share is based on number of guests. (This is why they increased some studios to 5 - it's not units, but average guests.)

So with the cash side down at zero, would DVC be calculated as carrying more of the cost this year, and have that reflected in dues?

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

...exact language of the POS

I giggle a little every time this unfortunate (albeit perhaps appropriate) acronym is referenced.

 

[Sandisw]

I giggle a little every time this unfortunate (albeit perhaps appropriate) acronym is referenced.

OMG,,,do you know I never even thought of that?... I needed that today given the new NYS order to stay put.