Walt Disney Company increases stake in EuroDisney

[Strikan]

The fatal mistake they made with the park was the location. As rteetz said, it was all Eisner. The weather is just not helpful to make the park a year round hit. They took all the financial incentives and then assumed that because Tokyo is busy year round that Europeans would still flock to Disney in the cold, rainy winter. However, Europeans are different to the Japanese on this.

Having said that, unless they can use magic to transport the park to Barcelona, they are stuck with what they have. They need to take control and invest wisely to keep interest up. Hopefully this is a sign that Disney intends to do that.

 

[Dingdingding]

I agree, there's a cultural difference at work. Most people in the EU it seems want holiday entertainment that is either (a) high-browed like cathedrals, museums and eco-tourism, or (b) beaches. Whereas Asians are more like North Americans in their enjoyment of fantasy/thrills.

I also question the choice of location/climate for DLP. I understand being close to the population centers and a really great transportation system (unlike say southern Spain or Italy) but Paris is actually farther north than Seattle. The winters are long and dark and at all times the sun is relatively low in the sky and not very warm-feeling.

This move feels a lot like the old cliché, "throwing good money after bad", but I suspect that Disney isn't throwing good money at all, just a lot of newly-printed Euros ...

The location was all Eisner. They had a spot in Spain lined up and the Spanish government was better to cooperate with but Eisner didn't listen and wanted Paris due to that transportation/tourist aspect.

I don't believe that. Other parks are flourishing since Disneyland opened in Paris. Parks like Phantasialand, Europapark and the Efteling have all expanded massively since the opening of DLP and have seen risen attendance. The difference is: they are in northern Europe, not in southern Europe. Spain could work, perhaps, almost anything would be better than France but they greatly misunderstood European culture and ways of doing things. There is no large population centre within a two hours drive besides Paris. Even the most populous French areas are more then four hours away.

If they had built it for example near the German-Belgian border, lets say near Aachen; you would have millions more within a two or three hour drive. For a day trip you would had the most populous areas of the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium (which are also a lot richer than France and Spain, and are known to spend more in the parks, especially Germans). They don't have the anti-American attitude most of France has. They don't have the strong unions DLP suffers from at the moment. Etcetera.

Biggest problem with Disneyland Paris with the attendance numbers was always the day visitors which they greatly overestimated, and the cash an average day visitor spends. They underestimated the travel time for the British who would always have to cross the channel to get to DLP (which is a hassle and brings with it extra costs).

I believe the Disney board looked to much to emotional reasons and weather issues. It isn't that thrills and fantasy aren't in the European culture, they're just not in the French culture. There were theme parks in Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany before 1992, some of which still are expanding. Most in France have been founded after the announcement of DLP or expanded after.

 

[Dingdingding]

The fatal mistake they made with the park was the location. As rteetz said, it was all Eisner. The weather is just not helpful to make the park a year round hit. They took all the financial incentives and then assumed that because Tokyo is busy year round that Europeans would still flock to Disney in the cold, rainy winter. However, Europeans are different to the Japanese on this.

Having said that, unless they can use magic to transport the park to Barcelona, they are stuck with what they have. They need to take control and invest wisely to keep interest up. Hopefully this is a sign that Disney intends to do that.

The weather on it's own wouldn't be that much of a problem The Efteling (Netherlands) is open all year, Phantasialand (Germany) has a successful winter opening. Both are a lot more to the north. The problem is that it is way too far from the most populous areas in Europe.

Moving the park to Spain wouldn't help that much. There are too little people for a day visit nearby and it would still be fairly costly to travel there from the rich parts of Europe. The park would be even more empty in the winter than it is at the moment. Even Port Avontura (which is close to Barcelona and the biggest park in the area) has not that high of an attendance and is closed in winter due to that.

 

[rteetz]

What did you get in big attractions and big expansions in the last ten years?
Monsters Laugh Floor
Under the Seas: Journey of the Little Mermaid
Seven Dwarfs Mine Train
New Fantasyland
Frozen Ever After
soon Star Wars Land and Avatar Land
I'm probably forgetting a whole lot

What did we get in the last ten years?
Ratatouille
Tower of Terror

That's it!

True but there has been much less additions to the US parks under Iger than Eisner.

Let's look at WDW from 2006 to 2016, as well as Disneyland and Disneyland Paris.

WDW
Expedition Everest 2006
American Idol Experience 2009 (but has since closed)
Sum of all thrills at Epcot 2009 (has since closed)
Toy story midway mania 2008
Mine Train 2014
Under the sea journey of the little mermaid 2012
Enchanted tales with belle 2012
Festival of fantasy parade 2014
Once upon a time 2016
Frozen Ever After 2016 (which replaced maelstrom)
Frozen sing a long 2014 (now in American idol experience)
Star Wars fireworks 2016
Finding Nemo the musical 2007
Rivers of light 2017

DLR
Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage 2007 (replaced 20,000 leagues)
Carsland 2012
Mike and sully to the rescue 2006 (replaced superstar limo)
Toy story midway mania 2008
Soundsational parade 2011
Under the sea journey of the little mermaid 2011
Mickey and the magical map 2013
World of color 2010
Frozen live 2016

DLP
Buzz Lightyear Laser Blast 2006
Toon Studio 2007 includes crush coaster and cars ride
20th celebration with new nighttime show and parade 2012
Ratatouille 2014
Frozen sing along 2015
Tower of Terror 2007
Disney junior live on stage 2009
Toy story playland 2010
Mickey and the magician 2016

You also have to remember WDW has four parks. DLP has two. It's much more appropriate to compare Disneyland and Disneyland Paris.

 

[rteetz]

I don't believe that. Other parks are flourishing since Disneyland opened in Paris. Parks like Phantasialand, Europapark and the Efteling have all expanded massively since the opening of DLP and have seen risen attendance. The difference is: they are in northern Europe, not in southern Europe. Spain could work, perhaps, almost anything would be better than France but they greatly misunderstood European culture and ways of doing things. There is no large population centre within a two hours drive besides Paris. Even the most populous French areas are more then four hours away.

If they had built it for example near the German-Belgian border, lets say near Aachen; you would have millions more within a two or three hour drive. For a day trip you would had the most populous areas of the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium (which are also a lot richer than France and Spain, and are known to spend more in the parks, especially Germans). They don't have the anti-American attitude most of France has. They don't have the strong unions DLP suffers from at the moment. Etcetera.

Biggest problem with Disneyland Paris with the attendance numbers was always the day visitors which they greatly overestimated, and the cash an average day visitor spends. They underestimated the travel time for the British who would always have to cross the channel to get to DLP (which is a hassle and brings with it extra costs).

I believe the Disney board looked to much to emotional reasons and weather issues. It isn't that thrills and fantasy aren't in the European culture, they're just not in the French culture. There were theme parks in Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany before 1992, some of which still are expanding. Most in France have been founded after the announcement of DLP or expanded after.

Flourishing yet still have less attendance than Disneyland Paris. According to TEA, Disneyland Paris park saw 10 million. Europa was about 5.5 million.

Like I said Eisner the CEO at the time loved the Paris location which is why they went with it. The other major location in play was Spain.

 

[Dingdingding]

The top European parks in 2015 with average annual growth in ten years:
1. France: Disneyland park Paris: 10.4 million (0.2%)
2. Germany: Europapark 5.5 million (3.4%)
3. Denmark: Tivoli: 4.7 million (1.2%)
4. the Netherlands: Efteling: 4.7 million (3.9%)
5. France: Walt Disney Studios: 4.5 million (7.8%)
6. Spain: Port Avontura: 3.6 million (0.7%)
7. Sweden: Liseberg: 3.1 million (-0.2%)
8. Italy: Gardaland: 2.9 million (-0.8%)
9. UK: Legoland Winsor: 2.3 million (4.9%)
10. UK: Alton Towers: 1.9 million (-1.3%)

 

[rteetz]

...ummm, Pandora? Pixar Place? Star Wars Land? New building at CBR?

I'd say from about 2005-2012. Very little money was spent on WDW. Sure you had new fantasyland but that was mainly because they needed more stuff at MK because of all of the people. The rest of the parks have seen next to nothing. AK for example had Everest in 2006 but nothing major until now 2017. Epcot test track in 1999, Soarin in 2005 and nothing major really since then (frozen could count but it replaced maelstrom). DHS rockin rollercoast in 1999 to Toy Story mania in 2008 to now toy story land in 2018. Prior to new fantasyland the biggest change was pooh but that replaced mr. Toads. One could argue it was 20 years between major additions at MK (splash in 1992 to new fantasyland in 2012).

There are literally decades between major changes or additions at the WDW parks.

 

[rteetz]

The top European parks in 2015 with average annual growth in ten years:
1. France: Disneyland park Paris: 10.4 million (0.2%)
2. Germany: Europapark 5.5 million (3.4%)
3. Denmark: Tivoli: 4.7 million (1.2%)
4. the Netherlands: Efteling: 4.7 million (3.9%)
5. France: Walt Disney Studios: 4.5 million (7.8%)
6. Spain: Port Avontura: 3.6 million (0.7%)
7. Sweden: Liseberg: 3.1 million (-0.2%)
8. Italy: Gardaland: 2.9 million (-0.8%)
9. UK: Legoland Winsor: 2.3 million (4.9%)
10. UK: Alton Towers: 1.9 million (-1.3%)

Exactly what I just said. DLP is still by far the leading Europe park.

 

[Dingdingding]

True but there has been much less additions to the US parks under Iger than Eisner.

Let's look at WDW from 2006 to 2016, as well as Disneyland and Disneyland Paris.

WDW
Expedition Everest 2006
American Idol Experience 2009 (but has since closed)
Sum of all thrills at Epcot 2009 (has since closed)
Toy story midway mania 2008
Mine Train 2014
Under the sea journey of the little mermaid 2012
Enchanted tales with belle 2012
Festival of fantasy parade 2014
Once upon a time 2016
Frozen Ever After 2016 (which replaced maelstrom)
Frozen sing a long 2014 (now in American idol experience)
Star Wars fireworks 2016
Finding Nemo the musical 2007
Rivers of light 2017

DLR
Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage 2007 (replaced 20,000 leagues)
Carsland 2012
Mike and sully to the rescue 2006 (replaced superstar limo)
Toy story midway mania 2008
Soundsational parade 2011
Under the sea journey of the little mermaid 2011
Mickey and the magical map 2013
World of color 2010
Frozen live 2016

DLP
Buzz Lightyear Laser Blast 2006
Toon Studio 2007 includes crush coaster and cars ride
20th celebration with new nighttime show and parade 2012
Ratatouille 2014
Frozen sing along 2015
Tower of Terror 2007
Disney junior live on stage 2009
Toy story playland 2010
Mickey and the magician 2016

You also have to remember WDW has four parks. DLP has two. It's much more appropriate to compare Disneyland and Disneyland Paris.

Yeah but, most in DLP were minor updates, to be fair; I did only count the major expansions, for example not the Dumbo the flying elephant upgrade.

The difference in money is enormous for most upgrades except Tower of Terror and Ratatouille (which was 200 million in costs I believe). Pandora alone is costing 1 billion.

 

[Dingdingding]

Exactly what I just said. DLP is still by far the leading Europe park.

Yeah of course; it is Disney. It is just doing far below expectations for a Disney park with all those massive investments and wouldn't have if it wasn't in France. It's losing money almost every year. Europapark isn't. The Efteling isn't. Even much smaller parks aren't, at least in northern Europe. Then again; some smaller Italian, French and Spanish parks are losing money fast. One just went out of business last year.

My point is that it isn't that fantasy and thrill aren't for Europe. If you don't count Disney and Universal in the US, those numbers are fairly equal with Seaworld (4.8 million), Bush Gardens Tampa (4.3 million) and Knott's Berry Farm (3.9 million). There are plans for a massive Paramount park in London, I think that would be a major threat for Disney if actually built.

My other point: the numbers are way higher in northern Europe than in southern Europe. Also: most parks are closed there in winter because weather isn't everything.

 

[rteetz]

Yeah but, most in DLP were minor updates, to be fair; I did only count the major expansions, for example not the Dumbo the flying elephant upgrade.

The difference in money is enormous for most upgrades except Tower of Terror and Ratatouille (which was 200 million in costs I believe). Pandora alone is costing 1 billion.

I am only looking at a 10 year period. Pandora does not count because it has not opened yet. Again I feel it's better to compare Disneyland to DLP because both have two parks.

With Disney looking to take full ownership I think it's almost certain more significant things will come to those parks. Especially Star Wars related.

 

[rteetz]

Yeah of course; it is Disney. It is just doing far below expectations for a Disney park and wouldn't have if it wasn't in France. My point is that it isn't that fantasy and thrill aren't for Europe. If you don't count Disney and Universal in the US, those numbers are fairly equal with Seaworld (4.8 million), Bush Gardens Tampa (4.3 million) and Knott's Berry Farm (3.9 million). There are plans for a massive Paramount park in London, I think that would be a major threat for Disney if actually built.

My other point: the numbers are way higher in northern Europe than in southern Europe. Also: most parks are closed there in winter because weather isn't everything.

If you compare Europe to Japan, US, or Asia. Europe just doesn't have that theme park bug like those other places do. Japan theme parks especially are crazy busy. Both Disney parks there see huge attendance numbers every year. even if DLP was somewhere else in Europe I don't know if that would increase attendance numbers much. It's not that Europeans don't want thrill and fantasy it's just they do it in different ways than theme parks.

 

[Dingdingding]

If you compare Europe to Japan, US, or Asia. Europe just doesn't have that theme park bug like those other places do. Japan theme parks especially are crazy busy. Both Disney parks there see huge attendance numbers every year. even if DLP was somewhere else in Europe I don't know if that would increase attendance numbers much. It's not that Europeans don't want thrill and fantasy it's just they do it in different ways than theme parks.

The situation is different. Tokyo Disneyland was built in a major population center. And I mean not only Tokyo but most parts of the urban centers of Japan could reach the parks within three hours. That just isn't the case and people have to make lots of costs to get there, money that has to be spent for a Disney vacation but Disney doesn't get. (I live in the southern parts of the Netherlands, to get to France by car I have to spend more than half what I would have to spend on plane tickets to get to Disney World, so I'm more inclined to save a little longer if that what they offer in DLP isn't that great) Americans are generally more prepared to do so, Europeans aren't; driving somewhere is three to four times more expansive than in the US. I believe that if they had built the park more to the rich population centers in North-Western Europe they wouldn't be that far behind the Japanese parks.

Disney- and Universal parks asides Japan's themepark attendance rates aren't that different. Again: If they'd built Disneyland near Aachen, you would have three major population centers (about 75 million people within a three hour drive), that would be comparable with Japan. With Paris, that number is closer to 20-25 million. Even the largest cities within France are far away by car: Marseille (7 hours), Lyon (5 hours), Toulouse (7 hours), because they're all in the south. Even from Lille in the north it's a 2,5 hour drive with not traffic), from the west Aachen would even be closer than Paris for cities like Strassbourg. England would be fine as a location too, again due to the large population centers (close to 60 million within three hour drive). At Paris they thought "hey, there are a lot of people in a three hour FLIGHT distance". But people in Europe won't fly (or take a train for that matter) for a theme park. Some from the UK will because they have a hassle with the Channel anyway but most Germans and Dutch (who live about 1-2 hours by plane away) will travel by car anyway. So it had to be a locals park. If they had the mindset of Disneyland Anaheim or Tokyo it had worked. But instead they thought of it like a Disneyworld for Europe: with people needing to travel lots of miles to get there. That is never going to work and has nothing to do with the European desires for fantasy or thrills.

The European parks have grown in tens of years (Walt Disney himself visited some of them like Tivoli in Denmark to get inspiration). The parks in the US and Japan (and the rest of Asia) that do really well at the moment have had massive investments in a short period of time. That never happened here. If Paramount actually gets there, Disney is in trouble.

And something else: almost all money already comes from Brits, Germans, Belgians and Dutch who visit the park, barely from the French. Normally in Europe they have to discount the people from foreign countries to get them to come, at DLP they have to discount the people in France. That isn't a good sign. (And I now it's with Florida too but this is a locals park like DLA, at least it is supposed to be)

Most of the people here equate European and French cultures while most of northern Europeans don't really like the French. They are pushy in theme parks, trying to jump the queue (which is also something I hear from Americans visiting the parks about the people in the parks), don't generally speak English and are noisy. For me that is one reason to visit German parks instead of saving for DLP although I love Disney and want to visit the American parks lots of times in the future.

There were large protest in France against DLP coming there and some media called for a boycott of the park. Where in the world would you have people protesting against a Disney park coming there?! That's just crazy in my view.

 

[rteetz]

The situation is different. Tokyo Disneyland was built in a major population center. And I mean not only Tokyo but most parts of the urban centers of Japan could reach the parks within three hours. That just isn't the case and people have to make lots of costs to get there, money that has to be spent for a Disney vacation but Disney doesn't get. Americans are generally more prepared to do so, Europeans aren't; driving somewhere is three to four times more expansive than in the US. I believe that if they had built the park more to the rich population centers in North-Western Europe they wouldn't be that far behind the Japanese parks.

The European parks have grown in tens of years (Walt Disney himself visited some of them like Tivoli in Denmark to get inspiration). The parks in the US and Japan (and the rest of Asia) that do really well at the moment have had massive investments in a short period of time. That never happened here. If Paramount actually gets there, Disney is in trouble.

We'll see. I just don't know if DLP would've done a lot better somewhere else. Eisner hoped to build off that touristy base that visits Paris. Paramount could hurt Disney but paramount doesn't have the properties that Disney does in my opinion. It's hard to compete with marvel, Star Wars, and Disney characters. With the Disney takeover underway I think we are really going to see more expansion and change at the Paris parks.

 

[Dingdingding]

We'll see. I just don't know if DLP would've done a lot better somewhere else. Eisner hoped to build off that touristy base that visits Paris. Paramount could hurt Disney but paramount doesn't have the properties that Disney does in my opinion. It's hard to compete with marvel, Star Wars, and Disney characters. With the Disney takeover underway I think we are really going to see more expansion and change at the Paris parks.

Yeah and that is a mistake. Tourist that visit Paris indeed come for the cathedrals etc., not for a themepark. Just like most people in DLA are locals, not tourists visiting LA, makes me think about DCA which was also a mistake.

Paramount doens't, but did buy a lot of licenses from for example the BBC. Still nowhere near Disney but Universal isn't either in my opinion and is doing just fine. They have some properties now that resonates more with Europeans than with Americans. (Marvel is way more popular in the US than it is in Europe) Properties do a lot, but not everything, but then again; I'm someone who misses the days Disney built great rides that weren't movie franchises like Pirates of the Caribbean, Big Thunder Mountain and the Haunted Mansion. I think it is a missed opportunity they didn't go on with the Jules Verne theme in DLP's Discoveryland. Disneysea has more Jules Verne attractions at the moment than Paris has...

 

[rteetz]

Yeah and that is a mistake. Tourist that visit Paris indeed come for the cathedrals etc., not for a themepark. Just like most people in DLA are locals, not tourists visiting LA, makes me think about DCA which was also a mistake.

Paramount doens't, but did buy a lot of licenses from for example the BBC. Still nowhere near Disney but Universal isn't either in my opinion and is doing just fine. They have some properties now that resonates more with Europeans than with Americans. (Marvel is way more popular in the US than it is in Europe) Properties do a lot, but not everything, but then again; I'm someone who misses the days Disney built great rides that weren't movie franchises like Pirates of the Caribbean, Big Thunder Mountain and the Haunted Mansion. I think it is a missed opportunity they didn't go on with the Jules Verne theme in DLP's Discoveryland. Disneysea has more Jules Verne attractions at the moment than Paris has...

Personally if I'm going to Paris I'll spend a few days at the museums, cathedrals, etc. But I'd also spend time at DLP. I think that has to do with the fact that I'm a Disney fan. However the mentality was people would do both the sightseeing and then the theme parks.

The fact that Disney doesn't do original attractions is a societal thing. Look at all the movie sequels out now. Disney also feels that going with IP is a safe bet for people to like it.

Like I said though with Disney ownership I think more changes are set to come.

 

[Dingdingding]

Personally if I'm going to Paris I'll spend a few days at the museums, cathedrals, etc. But I'd also spend time at DLP. I think that has to do with the fact that I'm a Disney fan. However the mentality was people would do both the sightseeing and then the theme parks.

True, that's my point; that mentality was wrong, and that's why it would also fail in Spain (you can't really count on the locals there). Most people I know that visit the Disneyparks go only to the Disneyparks or visit Paris for one day. People who visit Paris (even families) visit Paris but only Paris (it is expansive enough at it is; France is one of the more expensive countries in Europe; that doesn't help either) or go to the rest of France. They need the money from Brits, Germans, Dutch, Belgians, etcetera, but they are too far away to come often enough to make a change.

But I definitely the Disney-takeover is a good thing.