Walking “fix” implemented? Problems booking a high value Villa.

[Sandisw]

I also enjoy thought experiments and discussions like these.

In regards to the first bolded portion of your comment, yes that is how I see it.

In regards to the second part, there is a difference in buying a product that lets you book 100% according to the rules and buying a product that lets you book while violating those rules to gain an advantage. It's like buying stock tips from a financial advisor vs paying someone for some insider trading info. Both people would be buying stocks on the market but one would have an unfair advantage

Maybe I missed it in our great conversation...is there something that says that you can not use a computer bot program to book? I know you can't share your password with others, but a computer program is not a person.

I honestly don't know enough about bots, so forgive my question. Once a bot snags a room, doesn't a person have to complete the booking after that? Or, are you saying the program not only snags the room, but then has the ability to go through all the screens and confirm it at the end.

If a person has to get involved at some point, then it is following the rules. If they don't, I need to think about it more to see if I amend my thinking. lol

 

[Tatebeck]

Maybe I missed it in our great conversation...is there something that says that you can not use a computer bot program to book? I know you can't share your password with others, but a computer program is not a person.

I honestly don't know enough about bots, so forgive my question. Once a bot snags a room, doesn't a person have to complete the booking after that? Or, are you saying the program not only snags the room, but then has the ability to go through all the screens and confirm it at the end.

If a person has to get involved at some point, then it is following the rules. If they don't, I need to think about it more to see if I amend my thinking. lol

The program will do whatever it's programmed to do. It can stop at any point and switch to a human if that's how it's programmed. But the programs are NOT the member. Only the member is allowed to book, not a computer program or some guy you paid because you don't want to manage it yourself. A member must book per the rules. If any part of it is booked by a third party, it is against the rules

 

[Sandisw]

The program will do whatever it's programmed to do. It can stop at any point and switch to a human if that's how it's programmed. But the programs are NOT the member. Only the member is allowed to book, not a computer program or some guy you paid because you don't want to manage it yourself. A member must book per the rules. If any part of it is booked by a third party, it is against the rules

Okay....I still am at the same point because its the first step that is at issue, and not the completion of the booking, so it does come back to it being similar, to me, to someone who is using a network server at work that is high speed commerical against the owner who is booking on a home internet server.

No question the high speed one is going to have a better chance and I see the bot the same way...however, as we have discussed, its certainly not winning or being used every day because lots of owners out there not using them are getting rooms, including the very hard indemand rooms...

 

[Tatebeck]

Okay....I still am at the same point because its the first step that is at issue, and not the completion of the booking, so it does come back to it being similar, to me, to someone who is using a network server at work that is high speed commerical against the owner who is booking on a home internet server.

No question the high speed one is going to have a better chance and I see the bot the same way...however, as we have discussed, its certainly not winning or being used every day because lots of owners out there not using them are getting rooms, including the very hard indemand rooms...

Sorry for the late response, we were out to dinner lol.

Now:
That's just not how it works. Just because at some point the human member may step in and press a button for a part of it, the bot would have done most of the reservation. If someone writes a book or builds a building and then someone else comes in and puts their name on it in the end, who "wrote" or "built" it? The first person, not the second. Otherwise it would cause a ton of problems in weird situations where as long as a member did part of something, they could let someone do the rest. Or as long as a member got part of a benefit, they could let someone else have the rest of the benefit too. Makes my head hurt.

And you don't even have to take my word for it, the online booking terms and conditions are pretty clear. They break it down by each step, accessing, searching, booking, modifying, etc.
From this document: https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/media/dvc/DVC-Terms-and-Conditions-2018-updated-070921.pdf

---

"Terms & Conditions Disney Vacation Club® On-Line Booking For Disney Vacation Club Resorts And Disney Dining Plan Terms and ConditionsEffective November 1, 2018

Disney Vacation Club Members with a valid Club ID login and PIN # are authorized to access this "On-line Booking" module.

This allows you, if you are a Disney Vacation Club Member in good standing, to
(1) search for available Disney Vacation Club accommodations;
(2) to make a reservation at a Disney Vacation Club Resort using your vacation points (including banked vacation points and/or borrowed vacation points, if applicable);
(3) modify a previously booked vacation points reservation at a Disney Vacation Club Resort
(4) cancel a previously booked vacation points reservation at a Disney Vacation Club Resort
(5) order, pay and modify a Disney Dining Plan option for your stay at a Disney Vacation Club Resort; and
(6) make waitlist requests for accommodations that are not currently available. "We", "Us" or "Our" refers collectively to Disney Vacation Development, Inc. ("DVD") and Disney Vacation Club Management, LLC ("DVCM"), and "Disney" refers collectively to Us and the Walt Disney Family of Companies."

---

So, only a member is authorized to access the booking module at all.
Only a member is allowed to even search for accommodations.
Only a member is allowed to make a reservation
Only a member is allowed to modify a reservation
Only a member is allowed to cancel a reservation.
Etc.

The "first step" you mention would include at the very least accessing the booking module and searching the accommodations, both of which are ONLY authorized activities for members. A computer program cannot be a member, a member is the person with their name on the deed.

 

[Sandisw]

Sorry for the late response, we were out to dinner lol.

Now:
That's just not how it works. Just because at some point the human member may step in and press a button for a part of it, the bot would have done most of the reservation. If someone writes a book or builds a building and then someone else comes in and puts their name on it in the end, who "wrote" or "built" it? The first person, not the second. Otherwise it would cause a ton of problems in weird situations where as long as a member did part of something, they could let someone do the rest. Or as long as a member got part of a benefit, they could let someone else have the rest of the benefit too. Makes my head hurt.

And you don't even have to take my word for it, the online booking terms and conditions are pretty clear. They break it down by each step, accessing, searching, booking, modifying, etc.
From this document: https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/media/dvc/DVC-Terms-and-Conditions-2018-updated-070921.pdf

---

"Terms & Conditions Disney Vacation Club® On-Line Booking For Disney Vacation Club Resorts And Disney Dining Plan Terms and ConditionsEffective November 1, 2018

Disney Vacation Club Members with a valid Club ID login and PIN # are authorized to access this "On-line Booking" module.

This allows you, if you are a Disney Vacation Club Member in good standing, to
(1) search for available Disney Vacation Club accommodations;
(2) to make a reservation at a Disney Vacation Club Resort using your vacation points (including banked vacation points and/or borrowed vacation points, if applicable);
(3) modify a previously booked vacation points reservation at a Disney Vacation Club Resort
(4) cancel a previously booked vacation points reservation at a Disney Vacation Club Resort
(5) order, pay and modify a Disney Dining Plan option for your stay at a Disney Vacation Club Resort; and
(6) make waitlist requests for accommodations that are not currently available. "We", "Us" or "Our" refers collectively to Disney Vacation Development, Inc. ("DVD") and Disney Vacation Club Management, LLC ("DVCM"), and "Disney" refers collectively to Us and the Walt Disney Family of Companies."

---

So, only a member is authorized to access the booking module at all.
Only a member is allowed to even search for accommodations.
Only a member is allowed to make a reservation
Only a member is allowed to modify a reservation
Only a member is allowed to cancel a reservation.
Etc.

The "first step" you mention would include at the very least accessing the booking module and searching the accommodations, both of which are ONLY authorized activities for members. A computer program cannot be a member, a member is the person with their name on the deed.

I interpret the intent of that clause to mean that the site is for those of us who are owners, and not for someone who is not, and that as owners will be able to do those things.

I do not interpret that to mean that I can not allow someone else to help me. Based on what you are saying, if I log into the DVC site to book my rooms, and my 9 year old granddaughter wants to push the buttons for me, I can’t allow her to because “she is not a member”. That’s just silly.

Saying that bots should be stopped because they have a millisecond head start, while I don’t agree to the level you do is a valid concern.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree that someone using a computer program to aid them in booking is against the rules, when the member is authorizing that action.

 

[Chuck S]

If a bot or program is making the reservation and not a live individual it is against the rules and should be prevented

What specific "rule" is using a bot to access the online reservation system breaking? If an "associate member" has the right to access the online booking using the members login creditentials, why not a bot? Associate Members are NOT owners or actual members, they are a person that is basically named as a reservations/points manager by the owners. So the very idea of naming and registering an assoiate member to make your reservations would violate the the POS too, right?

 

[Sandisw]

What specific "rule" is using a bot to access the online reservation system breaking? If an "associate member" has the right to access the online booking using the members login creditentials, why not a bot? Associate Members are NOT owners or actual members, they are a person that is basically named as a reservations/points manager by the owners. So the very idea of naming and registering an assoiate member to make your reservations would violate the the POS too, right?

That is a great point! Now associates can have their own log in, or use a members, but they are still not a member, or an owner, but still legally allowed to use the website, as if they were.

 

[Chuck S]

And basically, if you say only the human owner can access the site, rather than a bot, isn't using the password manager in your browser to save time and automatically log you in sort of the same thing? Should we have to manually log-in with keystrokes each time....that would really mess up Disney's IP, that has implemented ONE login for all Disney sites, including Hulu, Disney Store, MDE, Genie+, and Disney+

 

[mistysue]

With all due respect, these last responses defending the rights of computer bots to book DVC rooms are completely absurd and signify little more than either complete ignorance of technology, or an intentional attempt to misunderstand the situation. These are programs written with the specific intent of getting an advantage over humans, and it is not productive to any conversation to act like you don't understand that.

It's completely baffling why anyone who is a typical user would be arguing for the right of some owners to manipulate a system to the detriment of the bulk of other owners, and further arguing that nothing should be done to stop corporations from doing so.

 

[Chuck S]

With all due respect, these last responses defending the rights of computer bots to book DVC rooms are completely absurd and signify little more than either complete ignorance of technology, or an intentional attempt to misunderstand the situation. These are programs written with the specific intent of getting an advantage over humans, and it is not productive to any conversation to act like you don't understand that.

It's completely baffling why anyone who is a typical user would be arguing for the right of some owners to manipulate a system to the detriment of the bulk of other owners, and further arguing that nothing should be done to stop corporations from doing so.

Perhaps, but again, how would DVC even go about preventing people from using them, or any other tool the owner chooses to access the reservation website. What if there was an inexpensive bot extentsion for your browser? You still need to use the browser to access the site in the firstplace, right? Then once the site is open in a browser window, just how would DVC prevent a bot from logging in and running it's script as directed by the owner. And if you don't like bots now, just wait a few years until full blown AI programs becomes economically available to the masses.

The only way to fully prevent it would be to require members to call for every reservation, like in the old days, and wait on hold for a few hours.

 

[mistysue]

Perhaps, but again, how would DVC even go about preventing people from using them, or any other tool the owner chooses to access the reservation website. What if there was an inexpensive bot extentsion for your browser? You still need to use the browser to access the site in the firstplace, right? Then once the site is open in a browser window, just how would DVC prevent a bot from logging in and running it's script as directed by the owner. And if you don't like bots now, just wait a few years until full blown AI programs becomes economically available to the masses.

The only way to fully prevent it would be to require mambers to call for every reservation, like in the old days, and wait on hold for a few hours.

Nobody has all the answers, but not already having the solution doesn't mean we have to return to debating whether it's even a problem because something else might also be a problem now or in the future.
Even without a perfect solution, addition of items that require human involvement at least cut down on a situation where a bot could be running 5 tabs at a time or whatever. I'm sure DVC could see behind the scenes if the same location is logging in and booking one of a small group of rooms every morning and succeeding every morning faster than a human could type. It's a start to at least agree that Disney could make the slightest attempt to identify the problem, which allows them to see the full scale and potentially act on it. Burying our heads in the sand can't always be the answer.

 

[Chuck S]

Nobody has all the answers, but not already having the solution doesn't mean we have to return to debating whether it's even a problem because something else might also be a problem now or in the future.
Even without a perfect solution, addition of items that require human involvement at least cut down on a situation where a bot could be running 5 tabs at a time or whatever. I'm sure DVC could see behind the scenes if the same location is logging in and booking one of a small group of rooms every morning and succeeding every morning faster than a human could type. It's a start to at least agree that Disney could make the slightest attempt to identify the problem, which allows them to see the full scale and potentially act on it. Burying our heads in the sand can't always be the answer.

It may be a problem, but you can't even seriously consider a solution without evaluating how it could potenitally impact all of your customers (members).

For instance, my local walmart put automatic gates up inside the store near the entrance so people could not run out of the door with merch, and had to exit through the check-out areas. It either did not solve the propblem, or the gates closed on someone while they were entering the store injured them and they sued the store. Either way, the gates were removed after only a couple of months.

DVC is not going to throw money away just randomly trying solutions. Especially when the problem is impacting a very small percentage of total members.

 

[muppets3d]

Defending bots is simply baffling to me. Wow. I knew I unsubscribed from this thread for a reason but maybe I should have never signed up for an account on this forum to begin with. The mental gymnastics here are olympics level.

 

[mistysue]

Defending bots is simply baffling to me. Wow. I knew I unsubscribed from this thread for a reason but maybe I should have never signed up for an account on this forum to begin with. The mental gymnastics here are olympics level.

It's worth it for the general wealth of knowledge, but yes sometimes the arguments are strange.

 

[Chuck S]

Defending bots is simply baffling to me. Wow. I knew I unsubscribed from this thread for a reason but maybe I should have never signed up for an account on this forum to begin with. The mental gymnastics here are olympics level.

I don't see anyone "defending" the use of bots. What I don't see are people offering solutions that aren't akin to burning down a house to kill a spider, or that would pass muster with the vast majority of members who want to keep reservations simple, and use their points for their large family groups without jumping though hoops of "pre-authorized familiy members", guest cerificates, and so forth.

Point chart adjustments could work some, but how many members that bought too small of contracts would be happy with raising the value studios by 30 to 35 points per week?

 

[mistysue]

I don't see anyone "defending" the use of bots. What I don't see are people offering solutions that aren't akin to burning down a house to kill a spider, or that would pass muster with the vast majority of members who want to keep reservations simple, and use their points for their large family groups without jumping though hoops of "pre-authorized familiy members", guest cerificates, and so forth.

Point chart adjustments could work some, but how many members that bought too small of contracts would be happy with raising the value studios by 30 to 35 points per week?

I think why it's getting so weird is you seem to skip right over when people say something that isn't "akin to burning down a house to kill a spider" and focus only on the ideas that would be more extreme.

Like adding captchas, simply asking the main guest on a reservation a yes/no question, or maybe lowering the threshold to CHECK if someone is commercially renting... I don't think your typical user would care, let alone feel it destroyed their DVC.

I could see some adjustments helping, maybe even just going up 1 point. And yes, it will have some negatively effected and some positively, but DVC is always clear that charts get adjusted. We bought our first contract based on ability to have a specific room for a full week during at least half the year. Adjustments happened, and when we can do that has changed too. Yet there hasn't been major backlash.

 

[Chuck S]

But captcha wouldn't really be a deterrent for the bots. They'd just pause and wait for their human to make a couple of keystrokes, The comercial renters would simply start using their bots to walk reservations instead of making them right at the 11 month mark.

A yes or no question solves what, exactly? If they are using bots, you don't think they'd say that they aren't booking it as a spec rental? There is already a box to check if the person isn;t a DVC Member, has it stopped anything?

And lowering the threshold to what? How many CM would you pull away from other duties to check and follow up with the owners?

But still, you admit that a lot of other things, like too many small contracts are the low points cost of certain room designations, so the booking problems would still exist. There is no real solution. What is clear, is that DVC should never have built the units in such a way as to need rooms designated as "value point" rooms, and allow such small contracts in a system designed for a minimum of 230 point contracts.

 

[muppets3d]

But captcha wouldn't really be a deterrent for the bots. They'd just pause and wait for their human to make a couple of keystrokes, The comercial renters would simply start using their bots to walk reservations instead of making them right at the 11 month mark.

A yes or no question solves what, exactly? If they are using bots, you don't think they'd say that they aren't booking it as a spec rental? There is already a box to check if the person isn;t a DVC Member, has it stopped anything?

And lowering the threshold to what? How many CM would you pull away from other duties to check and follow up with the owners?

But still, you admit that a lot of other things, like too many small contracts are the low points cost of certain room designations, so the booking problems would still exist. There is no real solution. What is clear, is that DVC should never have built the units in such a way as to need rooms designated as "value point" rooms, and allow such small contracts in a system designed for a minimum of 230 point contracts.

So your point of view seems to be, that unless there is a solution to every problem that solves the problem in its entirety with absolutely zero collateral damage - we shouldn't bother at all. I can't even fathom how that point of view exists anywhere except discussion forums.

 

[DougEMG]

Yeah, that would be not good.

You slow both down by offering one free date change and one lead guest change per membership per year and charging a fee for any additional changes.

I book my room at 11 months and usually book flights months later, which means I am always making changes. Then airlines make changes to my flights which causes me to make changes. This year I add a Disney cruise into the middle of my trip and end up making more changes. So 1 change only would never be workable for me.

 

[ShaneDJ]

"Earning My Ears" vs. "Super Moderator"

David vs. Goliath??

This is an interesting debate to watch!