"Virginia moving to eliminate all accelerated math courses before 11th grade as part of equity-focused plan"

[goofyernmost]

If true, the country gets dumber and dumber.

 

[bcla]

Lol. Why would he care? Nobody cares. And, believe me, the engineer that your husband hires isn't even thinking about their calculus class. Nobody is taking calculus in high school with the thoughts of "Oh gee! I can't wait to impress the person hiring me once I get my engineering degree"

Depends on the field. I got my electrical engineering degree. Calculus did come up a few times in the engineering curriculum with fields and waves. However, that's never been any part of my professional career. I worry a lot more about Ohms Law, which is basic algebra - just voltage = current x resistance. Also boolean algebra, which isn't related to anything I learned in college or high school math class, although I'm pretty sure it's taught in some college math class. My college math sequence was a generic set of minimum standards throughout all engineering disciplines, whether or not we would end up using them professionally. Most of the physics material didn't end up being used either.

 

[kiddo76]

Again. Odd. Who would brag about that? When my children were ready to take calculus, they took it. What's there to brag about?



Lol. Why would he care? Nobody cares. And, believe me, the engineer that your husband hires isn't even thinking about their calculus class. Nobody is taking calculus in high school with the thoughts of "Oh gee! I can't wait to impress the person hiring me once I get my engineering degree"

They take calculus because they are ready to take calculus. Because they have advanced to that level and it's the next logical choice. Because they don't want to be held back. Because they are good at math.

That's my point. He cares that they have an engineering degree. Engineering degrees require calculus. No one cares what your high school accomplishments were out in the real world.

 

[Pink Partridge]

That's my point. He cares that they have an engineering degree. Engineering degrees require calculus. No one cares what your high school accomplishments were out in the real world.

Exactly. Nobody cares. Students aren't taking AP Calc to brag about "accomplishments" in the real world. Students are taking AP Calc because they have an interest in math. Some are taking it because they want to be challenged. Some are taking it to get a college credit if they score high enough.

 

[Colleen27]

At the colleges my children recently attended/attend, 18 was the max, 19, if allowed, needed special permission and extra $. Two were business school, one health sciences. Replied to wrong poster.

Same where my daughter goes. Tuition covers up to 18. Students can get special permission to take 19 or 20, which my daughter has done once and will do again thanks to two completely unrelated majors that are hard to fit into four years, but 21+ isn't allowed.

It doesn’t matter whether you take the classes in HS or college...

Unless you’d rather get college credit without having to pay for those credits,

Or you’re majoring in a tough STEM major and want to be able to lighten your load by getting things out of the way in HS,

Or you’re simply ready for more challenge in math and you don’t want to be held back in the name of equity.

It’s not always about bragging rights.

Yep. My daughter wouldn't even be able to attempt the aforementioned double major if not for the advanced high school classes, which served to satisfy core requirements outside of her major area and to meet pre-reqs for jumping right into higher-level required courses for her program.

 

[QueenIsabella]

In the engineering world, there are a couple of advantages to completing math coursework early on. For one, it's cheaper (usually free) when done in HS, whether by AP courses or dual enrollment. Secondly, you need a lot of higher-level math for most engineering degrees--calculus leads to differential equations leads to applied differential equations. For me (electrical engineer), this specifically meant communications and controls classes. Early start means getting these classes earlier, which can lead to getting into graduate classes as an undergrad, which helps your knowledge (and your resume).

For the non-engineering student, calculus is as far as they'd go, possibly even pre-calc would be plenty, unless they have a specific need--I plead ignorance on specialties like biometrics, that might need additional math as well. But for most kids, calc is plenty.

But but really comes down to, if the student is ready for harder math, why not let them take it? If a 6yo is ready to read adult books, would you hold them back? You might, depending on content, but you wouldn't try to stifle their reading skills.

 

[bcla]

In the engineering world, there are a couple of advantages to completing math coursework early on. For one, it's cheaper (usually free) when done in HS, whether by AP courses or dual enrollment. Secondly, you need a lot of higher-level math for most engineering degrees--calculus leads to differential equations leads to applied differential equations. For me (electrical engineer), this specifically meant communications and controls classes. Early start means getting these classes earlier, which can lead to getting into graduate classes as an undergrad, which helps your knowledge (and your resume).

I can't really think of any potential employer who really cared about classes I took once I was already someone with real world experience. A few might care about where someone went to school, but that's just whether or not it gets another look after the initial 5-10 seconds.

In my professional career, I'd say only maybe one undergraduate engineering class was really meaningful in my professional career. However, I got my masters, which was kind of strange because one of the classes involved just relearning the same material down to the same textbook. However, there were quite a few things that school specialized in that gave me a head start compared to other new grads. Grad school really prepared me, even if a lot of the classes I took were virtually undergraduate-level course relabelled as graduate courses. Part of it was that there were fewer general prerequisites (just 8 quarter units of "applied math" which were essentially undergraduate level) but where we could load up on some specialty courses taught by working engineers.

 

[QueenIsabella]

I can't really think of any potential employer who really cared about classes I took once I was already someone with real world experience. A few might care about where someone went to school, but that's just whether or not it gets another look after the initial 5-10 seconds.

In my professional career, I'd say only maybe one undergraduate engineering class was really meaningful in my professional career. However, I got my masters, which was kind of strange because one of the classes involved just relearning the same material down to the same textbook. However, there were quite a few things that school specialized in that gave me a head start compared to other new grads. Grad school really prepared me, even if a lot of the classes I took were virtually undergraduate-level course relabelled as graduate courses. Part of it was that there were fewer general prerequisites (just 8 quarter units of "applied math" which were essentially undergraduate level) but where we could load up on some specialty courses taught by working engineers.

I was thinking more your resume for that first job. Once you've been working for a few years, yeah, nobody cares what specific courses you've taken, they're more interested in what you've done since you graduated. But, since most engineers go on to get their masters, getting a head start with a few courses under your belt as an undergrad won't hurt.

 

[Sarah0815]

For kids who are really strong in math, why should they be forced to sit through classes bored in the name of equity?

My kids attend a small, rural school in Ohio. This means that there is no gifted program at the elementary level - it is up to each teacher to provide differentiated curriculum. For my son, who is very strong in math, differentiated curriculum meant that he spent most of his elementary years sitting in front of a computer in the corner of the classroom doing math on his own. However, when he got to MS (which is on the same campus as the HS), he was able to accelerate. He took Algebra 1 in 6th grade, Geometry in 7th grade etc and completed AP Calculus last year in 10th grade. Now he can spend his Jr and Sr years completing college level math (and physics) at Ohio State (luckily Ohio has a great dual enrollment program) tuition free. He loves math. It comes easy for him. Why would a school want to hold kids like him back and not let them excel at a subject that they love?

 

[DisLiss]

If your kid takes Calc in 10th or 11th grade, doesn't that just mean they won't have math class senior year? Who cares WHEN they take Calc, just as long as they get to take it by graduation?

Allowing students to take calc earlier than 12th grade could help students avoid taking multiple math classes in senior year which is what happened to me. I wound up taking Analysis & Calculus in senior year, which was not exactly the easy sort of senior year some students wish for.

 

[bcla]

And even that is all relative to what your high school offers for courses. Colleges are looking for students who challenge themselves based on what is available to them.

I didn't do it (my counselor was supposed to bring it up for me but didn't) but at our school we had an "accelerated program" where students only took a half day at high school and could take one course at a local university. It might have been fewer 12th grade classes listed, but they could put that as an achievement on college applications. It was also unofficial, but supposedly anyone in the program was guaranteed admission as an incoming, undeclared freshman student.

It was also really interesting what it gave access to. Even high school students in the program had standard undergraduate ID cards and could access areas that were only open to students - like libraries. There were also student discounts at the student union. A friend was in the program and on some Fridays a few of us would go to campus and go bowling where they had a cheap hourly rate for students. Also learned how to keep score on a sheet rather than rely on automated scoring.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Has there been other sources of this news? I just went past our TV...Fox is still talking about it.

 

[disneyseniors]

IMO, dumbing down math or any other subject never works, and is rather insulting to all ethnic groups.

 

[JimMIA]

Has there been other sources of this news? I just went past our TV...Fox is still talking about it.

Yes, Bobbi. It's been all over the news, as I noted earlier in the thread -- Washington Post, NY Times, just about every network.

 

[bcla]

Yes, Bobbi. It's been all over the news, as I noted earlier in the thread -- Washington Post, NY Times, just about every network.

I can't find it covered in the Washington Post or New York Times. Nearly all of the sources are what I would considered right-leaning. Except maybe from this local TV station. This includes a quote with an interesting take on not being locked into an advanced math track from middle school. I remember my days where it was basically locked in by the 8th grade unless someone skipped over with an accelerated summer class to catch up (or even go beyond the regular fast track).

https://wtop.com/virginia/2021/04/v...pportunities-through-high-school-mathematics/​

Loudoun County School Board member Ian Serotkin posted on Facebook about the possible curriculum change, saying that his first reaction was that “it seemed absolutely bananas, and that it sets a soft cap on the number of higher math courses students are going to be able to take.”​

​

Serotkin did mention that there were “some noble goals with this initiative,” pointing out that it provides a pathway for every student to be able to take calculus or a higher math by the end of high school, if they choose.​

​

He also pointed out that the initiative would eliminate a current issue “of students being ‘locked in'” to their math track and being unable to get to calculus later on if they weren’t sufficiently accelerated in middle school.​

 

[Colleen27]

I can't find it covered in the Washington Post or New York Times. Nearly all of the sources are what I would considered right-leaning. Except maybe from this local TV station. This includes a quote with an interesting take on not being locked into an advanced math track from middle school. I remember my days where it was basically locked in by the 8th grade unless someone skipped over with an accelerated summer class to catch up (or even go beyond the regular fast track).

https://wtop.com/virginia/2021/04/v...pportunities-through-high-school-mathematics/​

Loudoun County School Board member Ian Serotkin posted on Facebook about the possible curriculum change, saying that his first reaction was that “it seemed absolutely bananas, and that it sets a soft cap on the number of higher math courses students are going to be able to take.”​

​

Serotkin did mention that there were “some noble goals with this initiative,” pointing out that it provides a pathway for every student to be able to take calculus or a higher math by the end of high school, if they choose.​

​

He also pointed out that the initiative would eliminate a current issue “of students being ‘locked in'” to their math track and being unable to get to calculus later on if they weren’t sufficiently accelerated in middle school.​

And that's the major equity component, I'm sure. I don't know how it is down there, but here, the math track is set when choosing 7th grade classes and unlike in other subjects, it is very hard to change tracks later. Unless you fail/repeat a class there's no way to step down, and unless you get special permission to double up or take a summer math class there's no way to jump up. If you didn't take pre-algebra in 7th grade and algebra in 8th, you can't make it as far as calculus in high school. But since 6th grade academic performance, which determines 7th grade placement, is so heavily influenced by individual maturity, classroom behavior, social factors, etc., the tracking isn't necessarily reflective of what a student is capable of later on.

Ironically, it will also likely help some of the people that those outraged by equity efforts tend to think are harmed by them. Yes, it will undoubtedly give poor and minority students who come from less academically supportive backgrounds a better shot at higher math and give English language learners more time to learn to learn in their second language before being sorted onto a track, but it will probably also help a lot of white boys (and boys of all races) who have issues with impulsivity and concentration as well because the older they get, the less the ability to sit still and be quiet influences their grades and the perception of their abilities.

 

[JimMIA]

I can't find it covered in the Washington Post or New York Times.

I found it (and read it) in both when this thread first started. Some folks on the DIS freaked out because the original news source was Fox, so they immediately discounted it.

Whenever I read something that might be questionable or controversial, I immediately go to other sources I know to have the opposite editorial bias because there is very little straight news any more. This story seems to have been reported pretty objectively in the articles I read.

 

[bcla]

And that's the major equity component, I'm sure. I don't know how it is down there, but here, the math track is set when choosing 7th grade classes and unlike in other subjects, it is very hard to change tracks later. Unless you fail/repeat a class there's no way to step down, and unless you get special permission to double up or take a summer math class there's no way to jump up. If you didn't take pre-algebra in 7th grade and algebra in 8th, you can't make it as far as calculus in high school. But since 6th grade academic performance, which determines 7th grade placement, is so heavily influenced by individual maturity, classroom behavior, social factors, etc., the tracking isn't necessarily reflective of what a student is capable of later on.

Ironically, it will also likely help some of the people that those outraged by equity efforts tend to think are harmed by them. Yes, it will undoubtedly give poor and minority students who come from less academically supportive backgrounds a better shot at higher math and give English language learners more time to learn to learn in their second language before being sorted onto a track, but it will probably also help a lot of white boys (and boys of all races) who have issues with impulsivity and concentration as well because the older they get, the less the ability to sit still and be quiet influences their grades and the perception of their abilities.

Some of the highest math achievers in my high school were recent immigrants with poor English. They could figure out written math questions.

I’ve seen classmates playing extreme catch-up before, but it’s rare. I certainly don’t buy anything like the movie Stand and Deliver where a teacher takes remedial math students in two years to where they can take an AP Calculus test and pass. The real story was that he took four years starting with algebra being encouraged before the school was ready for calculus.

 

[JimMIA]

Our DD has been playing catch-up since middle school. She went to a Catholic parish elementary and middle school here in Miami. Math was on the weak side in elementary, but it was absolutely horrible in middle school.

Her middle school math teacher was apparently a principal's favorite, and she simply did not teach. She taught a max of 5-10 minutes each day and just assigned homework. She gave everybody A's and B's so the parents wouldn't complain, but the only thing she taught the kids was that they HATED math!

When our DD and six of her classmates went to the same public high school, they had to take a state math competency test to get credit for Algebra 1. Five of the 7 failed the test, retook it and failed again, and had to retake Alg 1 in high school. DD and one other girl passed the first time, but barely.

Fortunately, DD had great math teachers all four years in high school and she caught up. Now she's making A's in college math.

 

[bcla]

I found it (and read it) in both when this thread first started. Some folks on the DIS freaked out because the original news source was Fox, so they immediately discounted it.

Those two haven't covered this news. I did a search for "virginia math" sorted by date, and there's zero. I think the Washington Times covered it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-search=&sort=Date&datefilter=All Since 2005
https://www.nytimes.com/search?drop...ry=virginia math&sort=best&startDate=20210326