Villains depiction

[La Stilla]

So we know the way Disney depicts villains, in quite the black and white way. They defer from their source material often, but I noticed some of the new ones I wouldn't call evil per ce. The most complex villain Disney did was Frollo, and compared with the book he is a pie. Still...
Disney was always a force in the culture, so I was wondering about the stereotypes of evil in their movies and is there impact on our (the fans) reasoning in thinking something/someone is evil?

I sure think evil is misintepretated as a concept, but that is other issue. I just find a link between it and this: not showing how some "villain" was raised, what life she/he had, what were their wishes of the heart, what was that that made them the way they are now etc, so not really knowing someone and just etiquetting them as such. In this way books are 100% better than any movie! I'll always prefer them as a medium, but I'll always enjoy the plastic depiction of villainism in the movies, not taking it too seriously.

Do you think that is good for children to believe in something as 100%good or bad? Do you think mabe this helps to judge more and be empathic less?

 

[BrianL]

Disney movies, animated ones anyway, are simply morality plays. The characters are 100% what they are, and while they do give motivation ot the heroes a bit, they do tend to gloss over the villains. Many of them seem motivated by nothing more than petty jealousy. The thing is though that they are bad gusy - do we really need to worry about what brought them to this level too much? Would it create sympathy? Do they deserve sympathy? I think that can be left best unsaid. It's like when the princess and the prince fall in lvoe at first sight - it's pretty unrealistic and maybe even unhealthy in the real world, but in their world the characters are 100% what they are. That prince is an absolutely great guy and the princess is practically perfect in every way, like some nannies out there. It's okay for them because it doesn't - it can't - get complicated. maybe that's not for everyone, but I can accept it.

 

[La Stilla]

And the question???!

I want to know about human nature, so I'm always interested why is someone the way he / she is (because we are supposed to condemn them, anyway, in the movies --not only Disney). People think Hopkins!Hannibal is cool and wow, but will call LAdy Tremainne a villain. Something doesn't add up.

 

[BrianL]

Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with getting to know back story and motivation, I just don't think it's necessary in the types of stories that most animated films depict. One could certianly get heavier and more complex with it in the right medium though. Personally, I am not sure what it is that makes some villains seme cool to people. Personally, I've never been much for the glamorization of criminals and such. Hannibal Lecter isn't cool to me and I have no sympathy for him because of his actions. I tend to see villains as bad, period. That's why I don't really enjoy crime movies or things like that. If there is no good guy to root for I become disengaged.

 

[Karin1984]

Honestly, I do not think young children pick up on subtlety in layered characters. That's something for when they grow up. At a certain point in life you switch from agreeing with Ariel to agreeing with Triton.
I did some googling and according to google children start understanding different people's perspective of age 8 and finetune it 11-13. So if you want to talk to them about villains and why they do a certain thing, it's going be a more fruitful discussion later in life.
The movies Maleficent and Cruella are more aimed at adults than they are at children.

Do we want to know more about Lady Tremaine? They did it in the live action remake, but did it improve anything on the story of Cinderella? Cinderella is the main character, Lady Tremaine is the obstacle for Cinderella to achieve her goal. In that story it doesn't matter why Lady Tremaine hates Cinderella. Cinderella is not going to have an honest conversation with her stepmother on the why and go into therapy and resolve their issues. That's not the happily ever after we are looking for. Knowing more about Lady Tremaine is not changing her actions and therefore also not Cinderella's.

Back to storytelling, there is usually not enough time to flesh out your protagonist and your villain. We can get snippets, as we have seen in the live action remakes. They added in Beauty and the Beast that Gaston has been to the war and that he has some sort of PTSD. If we focus more on this plotline, we lose time from Belle and the Beast. It's going dilute both plotlines.

 

[BrianL]

Well, I don't agree with Triton really. I mean, he has a point, but his overbearing, "becasue I said so" approach isn't the best either. The thing is, it's okay for Ariel to fall for Eric because he is 100% good - that's not realistic but in that world as established it is fine. By the end of hte movie we know this. Certainly histrionics liek, "But, Daddy, I love him!" don't help Ariel's case.

 

[La Stilla]

Tremaine I took for example to Hannibal, the one is cool and admired (and monstrous) and the other one is the typical villain (not that I am too interested in her...) Personally, I do think it's needed backstory because usually the villain's doings are moving the plot. We spend so much time with the turmoils of the heroes. I just think that things like that makes us more judgemental and less empathetic.
I do think the root is that they are fairytales, nd in every fairytale the hero needs a villain. I mean, in adult movies, people are even siding with them, because they understand their motives, layers, there are additional complex sides of the character.
I want to know does this shapes us in certain way, and I don't mean kids from five only but also teens and people in general. There is evil on so many levels. There guvernor Ratcliffe and add some adult movie villain as Joker (again an icon) and frankly I don't even see the first one as 'evil' just unpleasant, unlikable and despisable human being.
I don't think that something will justify them, but I feel sometimes with their pain and suffering and I just don't think any movie depicts the beauty of books in general, as a medium.
I feel bad that m english is not good, I hope I am clear at least a bit.

 

[BrianL]

Well, maybe my simple Disney morality plays and other cartoons really shaped me becuase I have no sympathy for villains in general and do harshly judge their evil actions. It really doesn't matter if they have sympathetic motivations or not. I like the saying, "there is no right reason to do the wrong thing." It's a simple truth. It's not that I can't find a villain to be interesting, but I don't think any amount of backstory will make me sympathetic to them. Then agian, I am a judgemental person, but I see it as very clear in my mind.

Judge Frollo is indeed interesting - he sees himself as a righeous man, but clearly has demons that he does recognize. I don't know tha tI'd call him "not evil" since he was going to throw a baby down a well, but he did in fact fear teh wrath of God if he did. Man, that opening sequence to Hunchback is SO good!

 

[La Stilla]

Yes. That exactly is Pnot judging. He was characterized better, we spent time with him enough to know him (Hellfire, opening sequence, great death scene). Hades would make a good story too. Its not same living in the underworld and living in olimpic clouds and not a tiny cloud of rain over your head. It is goodness not tested!

 

[Karin1984]

It must shape us in a way. I once did a presentation in college about a year ago on Disney Princesses and Image. During my research I came across research that said that boys who watch a lot of Disney Princess movies become gentler, more helpful etc. Girls who watch a lof of Disney Princess movies are more likely to favor traditional gender roles.
So I assume that the villains will have some sort of impact as well, but less because they get less screen time and because they are the obstacle to fight.

I don't remember how I picked it up, but I read something on Romeo & Juliet versus West Side Story. One thing that came up with that the story of Maria in West Side Story became more emotional, because of Anita's plotline. She is no longer the Nurse, she is her sister-in-law. There is a personal connection between the two of them. You start caring more about them because they are family.

And to me it's the same with villains. If there is a personal connection between the hero and the villain, the conflict becomes bigger. You best see this in Hunchback and Tangled, because of the relationship between parent/caretaker and the hero they are much more conflicted. You see in Maleficent they created the connection between Aurora and Maleficent to make the story more interesting.

With that in mind I wrote below 6 years ago in a Facebook post: I probably had just watched Princess and the Frog.

You know, actually Dr. Facillier is a really weird villain in a Disney movie. Before the movie starts he has absolutely no involvement in either the heroine or the hero. He has a great song, but he is one lousy villain.
I really don’t get his motives. It’s even weirder than not being invited to a birthday party. Facilier wants to rule over New Orleans and he wants to do that through voodoo on Big Daddy. So that is aimed at the father of the friend of the heroine (or fiancée of the hero). Why not go for that idea? It’s New Orleans, voodoo is real over there, so why not go for that? Why make it so complicated?
But that plan is basically plan B and it can be seen as completely separate from turning Naveen into a frog to turn Lawrence into Naveen to have him marry Charlotte and then use his power over Lawrence to rule over New Orleans? And also to rely on an idiot as Lawrence to keep Naveen safe in frog-form, which naturally fails so you have to use the Shadows to return him? It’s never made very clear what would happen when the power in the amulet ran out. With the power Facilier possesses, these are all stupid ideas.

When you compare it to the others… their actions are directly aimed at either the princess or the prince and not to the side characters.
Evil Queen in Snow White – Stepmother
Maleficent in Sleeping Beauty – Acquaintance of her parents
Lady Tremaine in Cinderella – Stepmother
Ursula in Little Mermaid – Acquaintance of her father
Gaston in Beauty and the Beast – Suitor
Jafar in Aladdin – Right hand to her father and he knows Aladdin is the diamond in the rough.
Ratcliff in Pocahontas – Governor / boss of John Smith
Shan Yu in Mulan – No relation, but Shan Yu also doesn’t randomly go after Mulan, he is after China and she is in the way.
Mother Gothel in Tangled – Mother/Caretaker
The Bear in Brave – Ancestor.
… in Frozen – Frozen has no villain ;-)

 

[La Stilla]

Great post and I agree, spot on!
I also don't see Hans as a villain...

 

[La Stilla]

This is a wide open area to discussion. I was just reading about 'evil' on Wikipedia. Opinions and philosophies differ too much, from religious interpretation to supernatural no non-existing. It's a huge concept.
As for myself, I don't really fear evil people. I dislike maybe pettiness and falsehood and saintly perfect people (the ones who are lying to the world about themselves and most - the deceiving of their own self.) I think that kind causes (even unintentionally!) most damage to someone. For surely I don't talk about monstrous people...to not label them as what they are lawfully termed.
More of everyday life. I also dislike cold hearted people who enforce their opinions on someone as a holy law. But that is just me!

For example, while growing up with Disney/kids movies and adventure when encountering someone 'off' I avoided them at all costs. Most people do even subconsciently, and label the world thru this set of fresh eyes. That later, hopefully changes, and we learn that some 'evil' influence is actually only damaged and in pain.

 

[La Stilla]

Also... I really love the series "Once upon a time" which deals with the villains in a sympathetical way, and sometimes even realistic, while not taking the glamour of the heroes as well. I really liked the world it created.