Vice President Cheney

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
Where was the "pass" when Bill Clinton was torched by the right for deferments from service? And, yep, those 200 veterans who swore to things most didn't have actual knowledge means they were wrong. Do you actually think 200 guys saw his wounds? You know the "Swift Boat Veterans" have been discredited by many sources.

I'm not a guy and I don't think Vietnam service is essential to public office. I just think chickenhawks who didn't serve and their lackeys have no business disrespecting someone who served in combat. I live with a man who spent a lot of time time in the jungles of Vietnam. It changed his life forever - you can't begin to imagine. He won't judge anyone else's experience. Yet you feel you have that right!

The SBV have not been discredited by many sources--though they have been derided by many of the anti-Bush crowd, yes.

I didn't serve in WWII, does that make it impossible for me to judge the behavior of certain SS members who did? If we followed your criteria of "don't judge anyone's behavior until you've experienced it" nobody would ever think critically or form opinions. Have you been President before? Who are you, then, to judge PResident Bush? Geesh, the constant hypocrisy of the left.

Kerry's service is questionable. But, even more so is his dishonorable and hypocritical behavior after his service. And, his behavior after that service is what causes all the criticism.

 

[Teejay32]

Originally posted by Dan Murphy
I'll try another.....

I like President Bush.

I like him too...I disagree with him about some things but I like him.

 

[Funkyzeit mit Bruno]

Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
And how many days did you spend in "Nam"?

I spent zero days in Nam, the same number of days Kerry spent in the hospital despite "earning" three purple hearts.

Furthermore:

-Kerry dishonored the medals he "earned" by pretending to throw them away.

-Kerry endangered American POWs by speaking publicly about so-called war crimes.

-Kerry met with the enemy while he was still serving (imagine a soldier taking it upon himself to meet with Osama biun Laden or Abu al-Zarqawi...that soldier would be thrown into prison as soon as the military could get their hands on him. And he would be considered a CRIMINAL, not a possible president)

-Kerry attended a meeting of the VVAW where TERRORIST ACTS were seriously discussed, and he failed to notify the FBI.

In a sane world, Kerry would have about the same chances of becoming commander-in-chief as I do.

 

[crazyforgoofy]

Originally posted by Kendra17
The SBV have not been discredited by many sources--though they have been derided by many of the anti-Bush crowd, yes.

I didn't serve in WWII, does that make it impossible for me to judge the behavior of certain SS members who did? If we followed your criteria of "don't judge anyone's behavior until you've experienced it" nobody would ever think critically or form opinions. Have you been President before? Who are you, then, to judge PResident Bush? Geesh, the constant hypocrisy of the left.

Kerry's service is questionable. But, even more so is his dishonorable and hypocritical behavior after his service. And, his behavior after that service is what causes all the criticism.

I believe they "sbv' has been thoroughly discredited. The difference between us seems to be that I state what I believe. You seem to think you KNOW everything.

"Judge the behavior?" You appear to feel you have the right to "judge" a lot of things from what I've read on these boards.
My opinion of President Bush and Vice President Cheney and their stooges for questioning the service and sacrifice of John McCain, Max Cleland and John Kerry is my opinion, not a judgement. My opinion is they're hypocrites of the highest order. And don't add quotes around words I didn't say - OH the constant hypocrisy of the right.

 

[crazyforgoofy]

Originally posted by Funkyzeit mit Bruno
I spent zero days in Nam, the same number of days Kerry spent in the hospital despite "earning" three purple hearts.

Furthermore:

-Kerry dishonored the medals he "earned" by pretending to throw them away.

-Kerry endangered American POWs by speaking publicly about so-called war crimes.

-Kerry met with the enemy while he was still serving (imagine a soldier taking it upon himself to meet with Osama biun Laden or Abu al-Zarqawi...that soldier would be thrown into prison as soon as the military could get their hands on him. And he would be considered a CRIMINAL, not a possible president)

-Kerry attended a meeting of the VVAW where TERRORIST ACTS were seriously discussed, and he failed to notify the FBI.

In a sane world, Kerry would have about the same chances of becoming commander-in-chief as I do.

I asked you how long you'd been in Vietnam because I mostly hear people who were never in Vietnam call it Nam.

Then perhaps you feel my husband dishonored the medals he earned in Vietnam. He too threw them away because he couldn't bear to think of what they represented - death, loss, pain. I don't believe either man's actions were dishonorable. I believe they were heartfelt actions. You and I disagree.

Oh I must have missed the memo that shows Senator Kerry was guilty of anything. I completely disagree that he endangered American POWs . Does John McCain think so? I think Mr. Kerry's efforts helped end the war before untold more were killed or maimed for life. If people like John Kerry hadn't stuck their necks out how much longer do you think the war would have gone on.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
And how many days did you spend in "Nam"?

None, what's your point?

Heck, Ho Chi Mihn served in Vietnam, too. I guess he and Kerry have even more things in common.

 

[dmadman43]

I believe they "sbv' has been thoroughly discredited.

Really? Data, please?

Then perhaps you feel my husband dishonored the medals he earned in Vietnam. He too threw them away because he couldn't bear to think of what they represented - death, loss, pain. I don't believe either man's actions were dishonorable. I believe they were heartfelt actions.

Did your husband throw them away, or just pretend to thow them away? There is a difference? When confronted about it has your husband ever lied or attempted to change his story about throwing them away? Did you husband then go on to accuse his fellow countrymen of war crimes in public? Did your husband then work on behalf of the NV for "peace"?

If your husband has not wavered from what he did as an act of protest, then while I may not agree with his actions, I have the utmost respect for his sticking to his beliefs.

 

[dmadman43]

Where was the "pass" when Bill Clinton was torched by the right for deferments from service?

Not to relive history but Clinton actually got a draft notice.

• 
  Eighteen-year old Bill enters Georgetown University and registers for Selective Service, as required by law. His status as a full-time student earns him a deferrment.
  
  In his senior year, Bill receives a Rhodes Scholarship to study at Oxford University.
  
  In February of 1968, the Federal Government eliminates draft deferments for graduate students and Bill once again becomes eligible in March of that year.
  
  Clinton subsequently, though family and political connections, obtains a Navy Billet from the local naval reserve unit and temporary draft protection from the Garland County Draft Board, allowing him to start at Oxford - special treatment that was not uncommon for Rhode's Scholars of the day.
  
  Clinton completes his first term at Oxford in December, 1969, and is ordered to report for a physical in January, which he did.
  
  In April 1969, Bill was ordered to report for induction. However, delays in International mail delivery resulted in Clinton receiving his orders after the induction date had passed. By this time, he had begun his second term at Oxford. Regulations allowed him to complete the term, but he must report for induction by July 28, 1969.
  
  Once again utilizing extensive political connections, Clinton gets accepted into the University of Arkansas ROTC program on July 17, nullifying his draft notice. Clinton would not have to enroll until he completed basic training the following year.
  
  In the fall of '69, Clinton opts to return to Oxford, rather than enroll in the University of Arkansas Law School. While at Oxford, Clinton contacts the draft board to drop his ROTC deferment and return to active status. By this time, regulations had changed, allowing graduate students to complete their schooling before reporting for military duty. Clinton had a high enough draft number to virtually ensure he would not be called.
  
  
  
  In April 1969, Bill was ordered to report for induction. However, delays in International mail delivery resulted in Clinton receiving his orders after the induction date had passed. By this time, he had begun his second term at Oxford. Regulations allowed him to complete the term, but he must report for induction by July 28, 1969.
  
  Once again utilizing extensive political connections, Clinton gets accepted into the University of Arkansas ROTC program on July 17, nullifying his draft notice. Clinton would not have to enroll until he completed basic training the following year.
  
  In the fall of '69, Clinton opts to return to Oxford, rather than enroll in the University of Arkansas Law School. While at Oxford, Clinton contacts the draft board to drop his ROTC deferment and return to active status. By this time, regulations had changed, allowing graduate students to complete their schooling before reporting for military duty. Clinton had a high enough draft number to virtually ensure he would not be called.

All perfectly legal, but rather underhanded.

http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/clintondraft.html

 

[Funkyzeit mit Bruno]

Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
I asked you how long you'd been in Vietnam because I mostly hear people who were never in Vietnam call it Nam.

Then perhaps you feel my husband dishonored the medals he earned in Vietnam. He too threw them away because he couldn't bear to think of what they represented - death, loss, pain. I don't believe either man's actions were dishonorable. I believe they were heartfelt actions. You and I disagree.

Oh I must have missed the memo that shows Senator Kerry was guilty of anything. I completely disagree that he endangered American POWs . Does John McCain think so? I think Mr. Kerry's efforts helped end the war before untold more were killed or maimed for life. If people like John Kerry hadn't stuck their necks out how much longer do you think the war would have gone on.

Forget what others think, make your own decision. Kerry met with representatives of the enemy while he was still in the service. Why do you accept that? What is your rationale? Because others accept it? Would you feel the same way if a soldier meets with Osama?

Kerry was at a VVAW meeting where terrorist acts were discussed. Why do you accept that? Is it really because nobody else seems to mind?

 

[crazyforgoofy]

Originally posted by Funkyzeit mit Bruno
Forget what others think, make your own decision. Kerry met with representatives of the enemy while he was still in the service. Why do you accept that? What is your rationale? Because others accept it? Would you feel the same way if a soldier meets with Osama?

Kerry was at a VVAW meeting where terrorist acts were discussed. Why do you accept that? Is it really because nobody else seems to mind?

I believe Mr. Kerry's motives were pure. He wanted the senseless war to stop. He was NOT charged with anything.

I ALWAYS make my own decision. And I've decided I'll back John Kerry and I am with my money and my effort.

 

[crazyforgoofy]

Originally posted by dmadman43
None, what's your point?

Heck, Ho Chi Mihn served in Vietnam, too. I guess he and Kerry have even more things in common.

My "point" wasn't made to you as you're quite aware. But you got a chance to make a smart remark. Congratulations.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
I believe they "sbv' has been thoroughly discredited. The difference between us seems to be that I state what I believe. You seem to think you KNOW everything.

"Judge the behavior?" You appear to feel you have the right to "judge" a lot of things from what I've read on these boards.
My opinion of President Bush and Vice President Cheney and their stooges for questioning the service and sacrifice of John McCain, Max Cleland and John Kerry is my opinion, not a judgement. My opinion is they're hypocrites of the highest order. And don't add quotes around words I didn't say - OH the constant hypocrisy of the right.

Despite your incorrect assertion, the SBV hasn't been discredited. That you have judged over 200 vets to be not worthy of credibility has nothing to do with them, in fact, BEING credible.

Are you kidding? How do you form opinions without judgment? Here, to help you:

judg·ment also judge·ment Audio pronunciation of "judgment" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jjmnt)
n.

1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.
2.
1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.
2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.
3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.
3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.
4. Law.
1. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.
2. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.
3. A writ in witness of such an act.
5. An assertion of something believed.
6. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.
7. Judgment The Last Judgment.

If you don't agree you judge, you'd have to admit you pull your opinions out of thin air. . . or just follow others' opinions without much thought. Which is it?

There is no hypocrisy on my part. I have no problem judging and admitting it. You do, obviously--as I pointed out in my previous post. People judge Kerry. And you judge those people judging Kerry. You said:

He (dh) won't judge anyone else's experience. Yet you feel you have that right!

You seem incredulous that many of us feel we have the right to judge Kerry--since some of us weren't in Vietnam. However, you feel the right to judge the President and you have never been president. And, you feel you have the right to judge me. . . or others. . .and you know what? You absolutely do have that right.

Too bad your conclusions are all wrong, though!

Still looks like hypocrisy on the Left.

 

[crazyforgoofy]

Originally posted by Kendra17
Despite your incorrect assertion, the SBV hasn't been discredited. That you have judged over 200 vets to be not worthy of credibility has nothing to do with them, in fact, BEING credible.

Are you kidding? How do you form opinions without judgment? Here, to help you:




If you don't agree you judge, you'd have to admit you pull your opinions out of thin air. . . or just follow others' opinions without much thought. Which is it?

There is no hypocrisy on my part. I have no problem judging and admitting it. You do, obviously--as I pointed out in my previous post. People judge Kerry. And you judge those people judging Kerry. You said: You seem incredulous that many of us feel we have the right to judge Kerry--since some of us weren't in Vietnam. However, you feel the right to judge the President and you have never been president. And, you feel you have the right to judge me. . . or others. . .and you know what? You absolutely do have that right.

Too bad your conclusions are all wrong, though!

Still looks like hypocrisy on the Left.

Nope, I don't have the authority or right to judge others nor IMO do you. I have the right to my opinion. And since my opinion is different than yours you see fit to tell me my conclusions are wrong. You have a right to your opinion. We could go on forever. It won't change either of our viewpoints.

Since I started this thread and it's gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy off on a tangent, one I agree I've participated in, I'm going to ask that it be closed.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
I believe Mr. Kerry's motives were pure. He wanted the senseless war to stop. He was NOT charged with anything.

I ALWAYS make my own decision. And I've decided I'll back John Kerry and I am with my money and my effort.

Ho Chin Mihn I'm sure thought his motives were pure, too.

It's acceptable because he wasn't charged with anything?

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
Nope, I don't have the authority or right to judge others nor IMO do you. I have the right to my opinion. And since my opinion is different than yours you see fit to tell me my conclusions are wrong. You have a right to your opinion. We could go on forever. It won't change either of our viewpoints.

Since I started this thread and it's gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy off on a tangent, one I agree I've participated in, I'm going to ask that it be closed.

How did you form your opinion, crazyforgoofy? Do you understand that one MUST judge to form an opinion? Didn't you look for or come across information, judge the information you received, and then form an opinion?

You're doing it right now. You are of the opinion that this thread ought to be closed. You have judged that you don't like the content of this thread for whatever reason and now, after judging the information, you have made the decision that you are going to ask for it to be closed.

See you next time. . .

 

[gometros]

Originally posted by Kendra17
I didn't serve in WWII, does that make it impossible for me to judge the behavior of certain SS members who did?

Another new low from the spin-meisters. Comparing Kerry to the SS.

 

[Dan Murphy]

Originally posted by Teejay32
I like him too...I disagree with him about some things but I like him.

Hey, Tee, I disagree with you on some things too scratchin trying to thing of some ) but sure do like ya.

That's five, gometros.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by gometros
Another new low from the spin-meisters. Comparing Kerry to the SS.

There was absolutely no comparison of Kerry to any member of the SS. You took that out of context completely, and I bet you did it intentionally. I was pointing out that one doesn't have to have actual personal experience to judge the actions of others.

You ought to be ashamed. . . but, I bet you won't be.

For the record, it has been the Left that compares Bush to Hitler, OBL, and other murderers. I have never stated anything of the sort and find that kind of thing--and your twist of my comments-- absolutely reprehensible.

Your post is the height of hypocrisy.

 

[gometros]

Originally posted by Kendra17
There was absolutely no comparison of Kerry to any SS man. You took that out of context completely, and I bet you did it intentionally. I was pointing out that one doesn't have to have personal experience to judge the actions of others.

You ought to be ashamed. . . but, I bet you won't be.

For the record, it has been the Left that compares Bush to Hitler, OBL, and other murderers. I have never stated anything of the sort and find that kind of thing--and your twist of my comments-- absolutely reprehensible.

Let me teach you about a thing called logic. It goes something like A is to B as C is to D. You're saying that you're not be a WWII vet doesn't mean you can't judge the behavior of certain SS members, which was in response to someone questioning your right to judge Kerry, since you weren't in Vietnam. So let's make

Vietnam = A and Kerry = B
WWII = C and the SS = D

Hence my statement. It's very simple really, even for a Republican.

Yes, I did it intentionally and no, I won't lose any sleep over it.

Once again, I'd love to see your sources. I have a lot of friends on the left. Never heard one of them compare Bush to Hitler. If they did, they wouldn't be my friends for long. I don't throw the "Nazi" tag around as easily as some people seem to do.