Vice President Cheney

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Folks, did anyone ever think that perhaps there was some sarcasm or irony intended there?

Let mee ask a question...can President Bush or VP do anything right? How about the color of thier eyes? Is that OK with you guys., or should we get them contacts to change the color? Were their suits OK?

God, I can't wait for this election to be over! This has gone beyond ridiculous.:rolleyes: , on both sides.
 
Originally posted by tonyswife
Which Kerry is opposed to and certainly doesn't pass any "global tests" :D

Source please?

Edwards stated clearly during the debate they supported Israel's right to defend itself.
 
laurajean - do you expect people to take your posts seriously when you use "Kerry is for fairies real men want Bush" to get your point across. I hope most of the people who support President Bush would at least take offense to this. People wonder why so many people think Republicans are mean spirited? This is one of the reasons why. Do you really think men who support Kerry aren't real men. Many of the men who support Kerry also served in Viet Nam. SO they are not real men and the Vice President who got five deferments and said he had other priorities instead of fighting this country' war are real men. I don't think so!
 
Originally posted by DisneyMomx7
laurajean - do you expect people to take your posts seriously when you use "Kerry is for fairies real men want Bush" to get your point across. I hope most of the people who support President Bush would at least take offense to this. People wonder why so many people think Republicans are mean spirited? This is one of the reasons why. Do you really think men who support Kerry aren't real men. Many of the men who support Kerry also served in Viet Nam. SO they are not real men and the Vice President who got five deferments and said he had other priorities instead of fighting this country' war are real men. I don't think so!

DisneyMomx7, thank you. My husband is a supporter of John Kerry. He's also a decorated 100% disabled USMC veteran! And believe it or not laurajean, he's a REAL MAN who chose to fight in Vietnam unlike Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush!
 

he's a REAL MAN who chose to fight in Vietnam unlike Mr. Cheney and Mr. Bush!

Unlike Senator Kerry as well, who's deferment request was denied.
 
I took it to mean that he had not seen Edwards on the Senate floor. . that he hadn't met him this year. It was sarcasm. . .too bad Cheney didn't add the phrase "this year" to his statement--and we'd be able to avoid all this!

They're on the spot, trying to make their points. I'm sure that's why Kerry said "treblinka square", too. . .I assume he knows that there is no treblinka square in russia. It's not a big deal.

It is a big deal, though, that edwards misses all those meetings.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Senator Kerry VOLUNTEER for fight in VietNam. He wasn't drafted.

ALso I really think it's offensive the lines "Kerry for Fairies" and "Don't be a girly man - vote Republican". Is that really the best you can do to encourage people to vote Republican. If so, that's sad.
 
Originally posted by DisneyMomx7
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Senator Kerry VOLUNTEER for fight in VietNam. He wasn't drafted.

ALso I really think it's offensive the lines "Kerry for Fairies" and "Don't be a girly man - vote Republican". Is that really the best you can do to encourage people to vote Republican. If so, that's sad.

::yes:: I'd like Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney and their supporters totalk about the successes of this administration. The newest headlines I've read today have the Pres and V. Pres tearing down Kerry's record. Why don't they stand on their own??? Oh, wait............maybe I know.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Senator Kerry VOLUNTEER for fight in VietNam. He wasn't drafted.

As a matter of semantics, he may or may not have "volunteered". Vice President Cheney requested and was granted a deferment. Senator Kerry requested and was denied a defermement. In the face of being drafted he chose the Navy. I'd say it was more a case of trying to make a silk purse from the sow's ear that was handed to him. Otherwise, he would be just another "Chickenhawk" like Cheney if he hadn't been denied his deferment.
 
I believe the vice president requested 5 deferments. Did you take offense when he said that he had other priorities than serving our country? Is he one of the girly men Republicans seem so fond of talking about?
 
Originally posted by Galahad
As a matter of semantics, he may or may not have "volunteered". Vice President Cheney requested and was granted a deferment. Senator Kerry requested and was denied a defermement. In the face of being drafted he chose the Navy. I'd say it was more a case of trying to make a silk purse from the sow's ear that was handed to him. Otherwise, he would be just another "Chickenhawk" like Cheney if he hadn't been denied his deferment.

So he attempted to avoid military service through accepted means and when he couldn't get the deferment, he didn't run, but did his duty to his country. And you're going to criticize him for this. How desparate are you Republicans?
 
Originally posted by DisneyMomx7
I believe the vice president requested 5 deferments. Did you take offense when he said that he had other priorities than serving our country? Is he one of the girly men Republicans seem so fond of talking about?

I've never used any phrase or accusation like "girly men". Nor am I defending the V.P. on the issue. Just pointing out that Senators "voluntary" valor is somewhat of a myth. He was in Vietnam for 4 months. But he didn't exactly "volunteer".
 
And you're going to criticize him for this.

Actually, I am NOT criticizing him AT ALL. I am criticizing his campaign for the spin they try to put on things. I think his actions, under the circumstances, were admirable. He didn't run th Canada, etc. He found the best option he could. What everybody in the era did.
 
Originally posted by gometros
Source please?

Edwards stated clearly during the debate they supported Israel's right to defend itself.

Senator Kerry was actually against the fence before he was for it.

“I know how disheartened Palestinians are by the decision to build the barrier off the Green Line," he told the Arab American Institute National Leadership Conference. “We don't need another barrier to peace. Provocative and counterproductive measures only harm Israelis.”
October 2003

Of course this was a speech to the Arab American Institute. Just a case of changing the message to fit the crowd. No big deal.

Richard
 
Originally posted by DisneyMomx7
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Senator Kerry VOLUNTEER for fight in VietNam. He wasn't drafted.

He volunteered for the Navy when his request for deferment was denied. If you know anybody who was of draft age at the time, you should ask about the significance his joining the Navy. My father-in-law joined the Navy during Nam, and he admits it straight out, he joined the Navy because he didn't want to be drafted into the Army.

But if you really want to evaluate Kerry's service, I think the most important question is: having earned thre purple hearts, how many days did he spend in the hospital? I've read (in the conservative press, since nobody else is covering this story) that the answer is ZERO DAYS!!!!
 
Originally posted by Funkyzeit mit Bruno
He volunteered for the Navy when his request for deferment was denied. If you know anybody who was of draft age at the time, you should ask about the significance his joining the Navy. My father-in-law joined the Navy during Nam, and he admits it straight out, he joined the Navy because he didn't want to be drafted into the Army.

But if you really want to evaluate Kerry's service, I think the most important question is: having earned thre purple hearts, how many days did he spend in the hospital? I've read (in the conservative press, since nobody else is covering this story) that the answer is ZERO DAYS!!!!

and once in the Navy he volunteered for a unit that he felt was certain would not get him anywhere close to combat or on Vietnam soil. At the time he signed up for the Swift Boats the units were not being used for combat. So, yes he 'volunteered" for the service, but to suggested he wanted to go to Vietnam and fight is not entirely accurate.

As for the purple hearts, not only did he not spend time in the hospital, but:

http://www.nysun.com/article/2542

A faded 35-year-old operations order recovered from the Naval Historical Center in Washington bears directly on the ongoing dispute between Senator Kerry and the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth about who wrote the key after-action report that ended Mr. Kerry's service in Vietnam. The report appears in the official Navy records and is posted on Mr. Kerry's campaign Web site.

It details Mr. Kerry's participation in a naval operation on the Bay Hap River on March 13, 1969, in such glowing terms that Mr. Kerry was awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for pulling Special Forces officer James Rassman out of the water while under heavy enemy fire. This third Purple Heart award allowed Kerry to cut short his tour in Vietnam after only four months.

The report in question described a mission of five Swift boats ambushed on their way to the sea by a mine explosion that seriously damaged one boat while simultaneously the Swift boats received "heavy A/W [automatic weapons] and S/A [small arms] [fire] from both banks. Fire continued for about 5,000 meters," a little over three miles. The admiral who commanded the Swift boats in Vietnam, Roy Hoffman, finds that detail alone absurd. Admiral Hoffman points out "There was never an incident under my command in all of Vietnam where my boats were engaged by continuous fire from both banks of a half-mile in length, much less three."

The report mentions two other mines detonating as well. So according to this report, which now stands as the official Navy record, this Swift boat mission concluded by running a veritable gauntlet of almost 3 miles of enemy fire from both banks, the detonation of three mines, and yet the only casualties occurred on the boat that hit the first mine. The Swift boats managed to escape and even more miraculously retrieve the sinking PCF-3 without getting a single bullet hole in any vessel or crewmember.

"It is miraculous all right, because it never happened," recalls Larry Thurlow, who commanded the mission."PCF-3 hit a mine, all of my boats directed supressing fire on both banks expecting the mine to be followed up by gunfire.

"But after a couple of minutes we ceased firing and took steps to aid the sinking PCF-3 and its injured crewmembers. There was never a shot fired at us and no additional mines went off either. And if we had been facing gunfire from both sides of three miles of riverbank, I would have called in the standby air support. I didn't. All I called for was damage control to be brought to us so we could keep the PCF-3 afloat."

After he returned to the United States the following month, Mr. Thurlow was surprised to find that he had received a Bronze Star himself because of his activities described in the after action report.

When Mr. Thurlow first saw the report last July he didn't recognize the mission it contained. The Kerry campaign pointed to Mr. Thurlow's own citation referring to his being "under constant enemy small arms fire" as well when the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth first contested Mr. Kerry's account in August.

As the commander of the mission, normally Mr. Thurlow would have filed the disputed after-action report. But he denies writing it. And the "MARKET TIME Spot Report" supports his denial. It was written by someone designated "TE 194.5.4.4/1." An operations order re-sent two months earlier, on January 3, by Admiral Hoffman, set the format for the designation. The operations order procedures, originated by the operational commander of the Coastal 11 An Thoi unit Mr. Kerry served with, Commander Adrian Lonsdale, were the basis for the terms of designation used in this kind of report subsequently. Upon seeing the report Mr. Lonsdale recognized it and recalled the procedures it required as being followed in his command.

"TE" for example refers to a "task element," which is defined by the numbers to the right that shows the command structure over the task element in action. "194" is Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam; "5" is Admiral Roy Hoffman's Swift boat command; "4" is Commander Adrian Lonsdale's command; the last "4" is Captain George Elliot's Swift boat base at An Thoi, where the boats on this mission were based. And the final "/1" indicates someone other than the commander of the mission. If the report had been submitted by the mission commander, in this case Larry Thurlow, according to the operations order, it would have begun with a "C" for commander of the Task Element, and the sender would have been "CTE 194.5.4.4."

According to a Navy communications expert, Troy Jenkins, who has examined the message traffic, the report in question was sent from the USCGC Spencer, Commander Lonsdale's command ship, at 11:20 that night. Only three of the officers on the mission that day were on the Spencer: John Kerry, Dick Pease, and Donald Droz. Droz took the wounded from the mine explosion to be examined and treated at the Spencer, including the third officer, the severely wounded Dick Pease. Since the Spencer had no helipad for the evacuation of the wounded, Mr. Droz then had to return to the USS Washtenaw County, an LST stationed about 25 nautical miles away, for medevac, leaving only Mr. Kerry aboard the Spencer at the time the message was sent at 11:20 that night.

Could Mr. Droz have somehow written the report? Mr. Lonsdale said he thinks that command precedence of days in Swift boat service alone rules this out: "According to the command procedure I set down, Kerry would have been the only logical candidate. Kerry had been in Viet Nam since November. Droz just arrived at An Thoi in February."

Larry Thurlow adds, "I never liked the paperwork anyway. I was happy to have Kerry write them up."

And there is another factor. Mr. Thurlow ordered Mr. Droz to take care of the wounded after the action on the Bay Hap. Mr. Droz had ferried them 40 miles out to the Spencer and now had to take them 25 miles back to the LST. Moving wounded on and off a 327-foot- long Coast Guard cutter from a 50-foot Swift boat on the open sea was not something Mr. Droz was likely to leave unsupervised long enough to dash off a report. Mr. Kerry had no duties other than reporting to the sick bay, where according to his doctor recently he was seen at 7 that night. And he spent the night on the Spencer.

The head of the Operational Archives Branch of the Naval Historical Center in Washington, Kathy Lloyd, has verified the operations order of January 3, 1969. Neither the Kerry campaign nor its Swift Boat Veteran critics contest the validity of the after-action report by "TE 194.5.4.4/1."

Kerry spokesmen have repeatedly insisted that Mr. Kerry denies writing the report and that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth were arguing with the official Navy record. But if "the official Navy record" now turns out to have been written by Mr. Kerry himself, the principal beneficiary of its glowing references to his performance, the Swift Boat critics' charges look far more consequential.

After all, the report completely leaves out how Kerry's own boat, PCF 94, ran downriver, leaving James Rassman overboard and the other three boats to deal with the ambush and the sinking PCF 3. All the living boat commanders on that mission are in firm agreement on that action by Kerry and agree that the report is a fraudulent misrepresentation of an action they remember well.

Let the source discrediting begin....
 
All I know is that the men on the swift boat support Senator Kerry. The man whose life was saved supports Senator Kerry.

As for the signifigance of joining the Navy - what was the signifigance of joining the National Guard?

Please note some of the bylines of the Bush supporters and you will definitely see "don't be a girly man - vote Republican" "Kerry is for fairies". I just wanted to see if any Bush supporters would be willing to criticize these mean spirited attacks of those who support Senator Kerry.

BTW did all the men who volunteered for swift duty do so in order to avoid having to fight? I don't think so. Only in the times we're living would anyone questioning the war in Iraq basically be called unpatriotic and someone who served in VietNam service be questioned while someone who served stateside in the Guard be considered as serving their country.

The National Guard of the VietNam era was definitely not the National GUard of today. Believe me I had relatives who served in VietNam and most of them would have loved to get into the National GUard but people knew then that you had to have connections. If you got into the Guard at that time you were almost certainly assured of not having to go to VietNam.
 
Originally posted by DisneyMomx7
All I know is that the men on the swift boat support Senator Kerry. The man whose life was saved supports Senator Kerry.

As for the signifigance of joining the Navy - what was the signifigance of joining the National Guard?

Please note some of the bylines of the Bush supporters and you will definitely see "don't be a girly man - vote Republican" "Kerry is for fairies". I just wanted to see if any Bush supporters would be willing to criticize these mean spirited attacks of those who support Senator Kerry.

BTW did all the men who volunteered for swift duty do so in order to avoid having to fight? I don't think so. Only in the times we're living would anyone questioning the war in Iraq basically be called unpatriotic and someone who served in VietNam service be questioned while someone who served stateside in the Guard be considered as serving their country.

The National Guard of the VietNam era was definitely not the National GUard of today. Believe me I had relatives who served in VietNam and most of them would have loved to get into the National GUard but people knew then that you had to have connections. If you got into the Guard at that time you were almost certainly assured of not having to go to VietNam.

I have "signatures" turned off, so I don't know who has what kind of bylines. The national guard was indeed a way to legal avoid combat and still serve. The difference is that Kerry has used his service on the swiftboats as evidence of his superiority. Bush has not used his service even as evidence of equal service let alone as a reason to vote for him. So if you say to voters "vote for me because I am a brave combat volunteer", then it is reasonable to assume your claim would be looked at.
 
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