Venus Williams accident, I don't understand the legality of this

[Magpie]

I just saw this on GMA this morning. What an awful tragedy. I thought they said Venus pulled into the intersection while light was green. Traffic was backed up, so she was forced to stop in the middle of the intersection. Light changed and she was stuck in the middle with red light. Apparently, the traffic cleared ahead of her, and she moved forward, even though the light was red. The other driver, with the green light, advanced forward and hit her. Venus said she never saw the other vehicle. She was driving a suburban I believe and the other driver was in a Hyndai. She was at fault for driving while light was red.

They also mentioned the family of the man who died is trying to get security footage from Venus's cameras (not sure what cameras) but they will not release them. Not sure what that is about.

Ah, so she wasn't in stopped in front of the other driver. He had what he thought was a clear lane ahead of him and she drove into it.

I don't know why her lawyers won't release the security footage (I'm guessing she had a dash cam), unless it'd make vulnerable to a lawsuit from the family.

 

[nkereina]

Was it an intersection she got stuck in? The way the Today show made it sound this morning was that she was turning left to enter her gated community. She turned in front of the oncoming car thinking she'd be able to pull into the driveway but there was another car entering the driveway that stopped short, so she couldn't fully pull into the driveway, leaving part of her car in the road. The oncoming car didn't have time to stop. Either way, it's definitely her fault.

 

[mjkacmom]

Here in NJ, if you didn't proceed into the intersection at a green light, even if there was still a car in the intersection, drivers behind you would be laying on the horn! Folks go nuts when you stop for pedestrians, and try to drive around you. There are 30,000 people in my 3 mile town.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

http://nypost.com/2017/06/29/venus-williams-at-fault-in-fatal-car-accident-police/
According to the law, could that car have hit me and then charged me with being at fault because I was in his way, blocking the intersection? I made the left as quickly as I could.

Short answer: yes.
If you aren't 110% sure that your vehicle will clear the intersection upon entering it, DON'T STICK IT IN THERE! Just wait for the next light.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

Ok, maybe I misunderstood, I took it as her going through the intersection when it was green, but getting stuck there by the cars in front of her, when the light then turned red. Is that technically still called "running a red light"? I always think of running a red light as initially entering that intersection after its already turned red, not when it's green. In the scenario I gave, where I am stuck in an intersection due to oncoming traffic running THEIR red or yellow light so I can't get make a yielding left turn before it changes to red, would that technically be called me "running a red light" as well? If so, I think I will just not ever attempt to turn left on a green light anymore (in our area I will have all the people behind me honking though)

Edited to say I re-read my post and don't know why I worded that last sentence so wacky. Of course I'll turn left on a green light! But will no longer do the "wait in the middle of the intersection" method unless there is limited oncoming traffic (to be sure I won't get stuck after the light turns red). It seems like this method is still legal in some states, including ours, but kind of an iffy grey area.

No, "running the red" involves no lane-changing, you're just going straight forward. Not making the turn, and being stuck in the middle of the intersection to get T-boned, that's obstruction of the roadway and it's actually much more frowned upon than a simple acceleration through a changing stoplight. And yes you are at fault when another driver hits you in this scenario.

Judging by this video and the comments underneath, the whole "entering the intersection on green, but getting stuck there after it turns red" is a subject of debate and confusion even among the experts.

It *IS* tricky. From what I understand, there is no clear rule unless there is a collision, and then the insurance companies have a whole breakdown of "X happened because Y is at fault". Very rarely do police ticket for someone blocking the intersection, but it can happen.

 

[marcyleecorgan]

Me too. How many people actually peruse all the rules of the road books for every state before heading out on a road trip??

My mom always did, when we were going on road trips.
Not all states allow you to turn right legally on a red light for example. Denver in Colorado is psychotic about its "bus only" lanes. The cop was really nasty about it, "Sorry, even if the buses and trucks boxed you in during industrial rush hour, you were in that lane and here is a ticket". no warning, no caring we were from a different state, etc.
Not all states have HOV lanes either.

So if I'm going cross-country, I just look it up and remind myself of what's legal where I'm going...

 

[anniemae]

Was it an intersection she got stuck in? The way the Today show made it sound this morning was that she was turning left to enter her gated community. She turned in front of the oncoming car thinking she'd be able to pull into the driveway but there was another car entering the driveway that stopped short, so she couldn't fully pull into the driveway, leaving part of her car in the road. The oncoming car didn't have time to stop. Either way, it's definitely her fault.

Hmmmmmm I'm not sure. I do think she was near her gated community because I think that was the camera footage they were trying to obtain. On GMA though, they showed a graphic and it did not indicate she was turning. Maybe she had to go through the intersection, then turn. Not turn in the intersection? Not sure.

 

[anniemae]

Ok, I just re-watched and it does not appear she was taking a left. I just googled "gma venus williams" It comes up with the video from this mornings show. At about 1 minute in, it shows the graphic of what happened.

 

[bcla]

Just a few things. First is that a collision report is not a legal finding of fact. It is an opinion by the investigator. I know someone who was determined at fault by the investigations officer, but the insurance company came to a different conclusion based on a different interpretation of the officer's statement of the details of the collision.

Second, it may really depend on whether or not she remained still or moved. If she got T-boned while perfectly still, that should be on the driver of the moving car. If she was stopped, then moved into the path then I see a case for her fault.

A driver is allowed to complete clearing an intersection if it's yellow upon entering or while in the intersection. But if the driver can't make it through, it may be contingent on the drive to move only when safe to do so. I've seen plenty of this going on, and usually it's drivers honking and trying to go around the blocking vehicle.

 

[Squirlz]

Well I wouldn't say waiting for traffic to clear as it should have been clear before you entered the intersection.

It's just that in my state once you have entered the intersection or passed the limit line when the light is yellow it's not considered running a red light. If you are however still in the intersection backed up behind cars and then the light goes red then you are considered blocking the intersection. So you're trading one offense for another.

Don't you pull into the intersection when waiting to turn left?

 

[Klayfish]

I see this type of accident every day, many times. I don't know all of the facts, but as a general rule vehicles turning left must yield the right of way to oncoming traffic (unless there is a protected left turn arrow). Having said that, there are large variables in degrees of negligence. How wide is the road, line of sight, etc...all play a role. State negligence laws also come into play.

As noted by bcla above, the police findings are not binding on the insurance/legal claim that the decedents family will make. It'll play a role, but it is not the binding decision. This loss happened in New York state, right? New York negligence law is called "pure comparative". In other words, if Venus is 80% at fault then that's how much she's liable for. If she's 20% at fault, that's how much she's liable for...that's different than many other states where if she was 50% or less at fault, she'd owe nothing.

Either way, this will wind up an insurance settlement, and probably a relatively large one (though when elderly people are killed, the settlement is usually a lot less).

 

[DizBelle]

I'm sure there are various local laws, but you're not supposed to pull into the intersection until you can complete the turn. If you're still in the intersection after the light turns red you could be ticketed for an unsafe turn.

Intersections would be much more congested if every driver had to stop at the green light and ensure they can get through before they proceed through the intersection. Basically, following someone through an intersection would not be allowed. You have to wait for the car in front of you to clear the intersection and ensure there is enough space on the other side for you before you can begin to proceed through the intersection.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Don't you pull into the intersection when waiting to turn left?

As far as the discussion of red light/yellow light that was more related to going straight not turning at least in regards to my comment-maybe that was the confusion as I responded to your comment in respects to going straight.

 

[katie01]

I see this type of accident every day, many times. I don't know all of the facts, but as a general rule vehicles turning left must yield the right of way to oncoming traffic (unless there is a protected left turn arrow). Having said that, there are large variables in degrees of negligence. How wide is the road, line of sight, etc...all play a role. State negligence laws also come into play.

As noted by bcla above, the police findings are not binding on the insurance/legal claim that the decedents family will make. It'll play a role, but it is not the binding decision. This loss happened in New York state, right? New York negligence law is called "pure comparative". In other words, if Venus is 80% at fault then that's how much she's liable for. If she's 20% at fault, that's how much she's liable for...that's different than many other states where if she was 50% or less at fault, she'd owe nothing.

Either way, this will wind up an insurance settlement, and probably a relatively large one (though when elderly people are killed, the settlement is usually a lot less).

I believe it happened in FL

 

[Klayfish]

Regarding pulling into an intersection or not...even doing what I do for a living, yes I do pull into an intersection and wait. I don't turn until it's clear to do so. The red light part of the argument will wash out. Unless it's an intersection with a protected green arrow or delayed green, if a northbound driver runs the red light, by definition so does the southbound driver. Both lights turn red at the same time.

 

[Klayfish]

I believe it happened in FL

Ah, got it. FL is also a pure comparative state, so the same laws would apply. The big difference about Florida is that it's a cesspool when it comes to this type of stuff. Very litigious state, full of unsavory attorneys and ugly laws. Insurance companies hate to write there.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Ah, got it. FL is also a pure comparative state, so the same laws would apply. The big difference about Florida is that it's a cesspool when it comes to this type of stuff. Very litigious state, full of unsavory attorneys and ugly laws. Insurance companies hate to write there.

The insurance company I worked for refused to write business in FL. They do however have their non-standard insurance company (which is a subsidy) there however they bought that non-standard insurance company rather than it being a company they created.

 

[Klayfish]

The insurance company I worked for refused to write business in FL. They do however have their non-standard insurance company (which is a subsidy) there however they bought that non-standard insurance company rather than it being a company they created.

Yep...FL is one of just a couple of states that my company doesn't write business in.

 

[declansdad]

Intersections would be much more congested if every driver had to stop at the green light and ensure they can get through before they proceed through the intersection. Basically, following someone through an intersection would not be allowed. You have to wait for the car in front of you to clear the intersection and ensure there is enough space on the other side for you before you can begin to proceed through the intersection.

I don't know what the intersections are like where you live but here it is pretty easy to see what the oncoming traffic is like and decide if you can continue through on the green light or if you need to yield to the oncoming traffic. If you can see that you have the necessary room to proceed then do so without stopping.

 

[wenrob]

Here in NJ, if you didn't proceed into the intersection at a green light, even if there was still a car in the intersection, drivers behind you would be laying on the horn! Folks go nuts when you stop for pedestrians, and try to drive around you. There are 30,000 people in my 3 mile town.

It's like that here too. But you know what? Let them lay on their horn or go around me. Unless I know I can clear the light I'm not entering the intersection no matter how green that light is. I'm not going to risk my life or the life of someone else so they can get somewhere two minutes faster.