Venus Williams accident, I don't understand the legality of this

[katie01]

http://nypost.com/2017/06/29/venus-williams-at-fault-in-fatal-car-accident-police/

I do understand that you are not supposed to block an intersection. But I'm guessing this has happened to most of us, where you think you are going to make it through a green light, but traffic backs up, and you get stuck or almost get stuck in an intersection. From this article it appears that this is what happened to Venus, who was then hit by a car coming through that intersection, but the charges were filed against Venus. I thought that the fault was always assigned to the person who does the t-boning or rear-ending, despite how little time they may have to stop? Didn't we just have a thread about this? How even if you read-end someone who stopped very suddenly, you would always be at fault? From this article it makes it seem as though it's your right to plow into someone if your light turns green. This makes me wonder about another scenario, where you are trying to turn left on a green light (at an intersection where you're allowed to yield on green to turn left). You pull into the intersection to wait for an opening in oncoming traffic, but oncoming traffic keeps coming, and the oncoming cars go through the yellow or even run the red, so you end up not being able to turn left until it's red (because at this point, halfway into the intersection, you can't back up, you have to go when you can go). I had this happen the other day and the car perpendicular to me, whose light then turned green, laid on the horn at me, but I had no control over oncoming traffic. According to the law, could that car have hit me and then charged me with being at fault because I was in his way, blocking the intersection? I made the left as quickly as I could.

Things like this make me anxious, I would have a very hard time carrying on with my life if someone lost their life and I was the cause of it, or assigned legal responsibility even if it was an accident. I feel very sorry for the gentleman who lost his life, but also for Ms. Williams.

 

[Mizzoufan]

Even though I don't agree with it. She was the one who ran the light. She was the one who caused the accident. In this case I do't go unless I know I can make it before the light changes. Should the other car have went no. Such a horrible tragedy all the way around.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

http://nypost.com/2017/06/29/venus-williams-at-fault-in-fatal-car-accident-police/

I do understand that you are not supposed to block an intersection. But I'm guessing this has happened to most of us, where you think you are going to make it through a green light, but traffic backs up, and you get stuck or almost get stuck in an intersection. From this article it appears that this is what happened to Venus, who was then hit by a car coming through that intersection, but the charges were filed against Venus. I thought that the fault was always assigned to the person who does the t-boning or rear-ending, despite how little time they may have to stop? Didn't we just have a thread about this? How even if you read-end someone who stopped very suddenly, you would always be at fault? From this article it makes it seem as though it's your right to plow into someone if your light turns green. This makes me wonder about another scenario, where you are trying to turn left on a green light (at an intersection where you're allowed to yield on green to turn left). You pull into the intersection to wait for an opening in oncoming traffic, but oncoming traffic keeps coming, and the oncoming cars go through the yellow or even run the red, so you end up not being able to turn left until it's red (because at this point, halfway into the intersection, you can't back up, you have to go when you can go). I had this happen the other day and the car perpendicular to me, whose light then turned green, laid on the horn at me, but I had no control over oncoming traffic. According to the law, could that car have hit me and then charged me with being at fault because I was in his way, blocking the intersection? I made the left as quickly as I could.

Things like this make me anxious, I would have a very hard time carrying on with my life if someone lost their life and I was the cause of it, or assigned legal responsibility even if it was an accident. I feel very sorry for the gentleman who lost his life, but also for Ms. Williams.

Accidents do happen all the time, it is a part of life unfortunately. That being said, you have to follow the laws on the books. I would assume she had good legal representation.

And yes, people can purposefully stop so you run into to them. It is a scam as old as the hills.

 

[katie01]

Even though I don't agree with it. She was the one who ran the light. She was the one who caused the accident. In this case I do't go unless I know I can make it before the light changes. Should the other car have went no. Such a horrible tragedy all the way around.

Ok, maybe I misunderstood, I took it as her going through the intersection when it was green, but getting stuck there by the cars in front of her, when the light then turned red. Is that technically still called "running a red light"? I always think of running a red light as initially entering that intersection after its already turned red, not when it's green. In the scenario I gave, where I am stuck in an intersection due to oncoming traffic running THEIR red or yellow light so I can't get make a yielding left turn before it changes to red, would that technically be called me "running a red light" as well? If so, I think I will just not ever attempt to turn left on a green light anymore (in our area I will have all the people behind me honking though)

Edited to say I re-read my post and don't know why I worded that last sentence so wacky. Of course I'll turn left on a green light! But will no longer do the "wait in the middle of the intersection" method unless there is limited oncoming traffic (to be sure I won't get stuck after the light turns red). It seems like this method is still legal in some states, including ours, but kind of an iffy grey area.

 

[Allison]

You won't turn left on green anymore because of this? Sò, what if you cause an accident by not following traffic rules doing that?

Are you normally an anxious driver? That can be dangerous itself.

 

[morgan98]

Ok, maybe I misunderstood, I took it as her going through the intersection when it was green, but getting stuck there by the cars in front of her, when the light then turned red. Is that technically still called "running a red light"? I always think of running a red light as initially entering that intersection after its already turned red, not when it's green. In the scenario I gave, where I am stuck in an intersection due to oncoming traffic running THEIR red or yellow light so I can't get make a yielding left turn before it changes to red, would that technically be called me "running a red light" as well? If so, I think I will just not ever attempt to turn left on a green light anymore (in our area I will have all the people behind me honking though)

I think the law is that you are not supposed to enter the intersection unless you can clear it. If cars are backed up into the intersection, you are supposed to stay back and not enter the intersection until you can drive all the way through, even if the light is green.

This scenario happens fairly often, especially in very congested areas. However, it is usually more of an annoyance and really causes gridlock. I

 

[Magpie]

Ok, maybe I misunderstood, I took it as her going through the intersection when it was green, but getting stuck there by the cars in front of her, when the light then turned red. Is that technically still called "running a red light"? I always think of running a red light as initially entering that intersection after its already turned red, not when it's green. In the scenario I gave, where I am stuck in an intersection due to oncoming traffic running THEIR red or yellow light so I can't get make a yielding left turn before it changes to red, would that technically be called me "running a red light" as well? If so, I think I will just not ever attempt to turn left on a green light anymore (in our area I will have all the people behind me honking though)

With the caveat that I am a non driver, and Canadian...

My husband does not enter the intersection unless he can clear it. Meaning, if there's a car stuck halfway across the crosswalk ahead, he doesn't try to proceed, or turn, until the line ahead of that car has (at minimum!) started to move and it's obvious there's room for us.

I can't remember the last time we were stuck in an intersection. I do, however, recall him saying, "Seriously???" when someone in the lane next to us decides to proceed despite it being clear they can't get through and ends up stuck there. People don't honk at us, they honk at the guy in the intersection.

 

[katie01]

You won't turn left on green anymore because of this? Sò, what if you cause an accident by not following traffic rules doing that? You are overreacting.

I just looked up the legality of this, I think this explains it better. Where we live, we travel along a long stretch of road with miles of stop lights. The green left turn arrows typically only last a very short time, allowing only a few cars through. There are always many more cars waiting to turn left than will actually get through, so cars always pull into the intersection to wait to turn left after yielding to oncoming traffic. Trouble is, oncoming traffic is also very long and backed up, and (Chicago drivers) will pretty much always go through yellow, and at least half the time run the red. Leaving the waiting left turners to have to go left on red too. According to this article, the left turners could be cited for this. So no, I don't think I'm overreacting. I think I should only turn left on a green if I have a green arrow, or there is no one coming for quite some time, rather than doing the "pull into the intersection and wait for an opening thing". http://pugetsoundblogs.com/roadwarr...e-turning-left-is-ok-until-the-light-changes/

 

[declansdad]

I think the law is that you are not supposed to enter the intersection unless you can clear it. If cars are backed up into the intersection, you are supposed to stay back and not enter the intersection until you can drive all the way through, even if the light is green.

Exactly.

 

[katie01]

With the caveat that I am a non driver, and Canadian...

My husband does not enter the intersection unless he can clear it. Meaning, if there's a car stuck halfway across the crosswalk ahead, he doesn't try to proceed, or turn, until the line ahead of that car has (at minimum!) started to move and it's obvious there's room for us.

I can't remember the last time we were stuck in an intersection. I do, however, recall him saying, "Seriously???" when someone in the lane next to us decides to proceed despite it being clear they can't get through and ends up stuck there. People don't honk at us, they honk at the guy in the intersection.

Yes, I think that scenario (going straight through an intersection when it looks to be backing up) is easier and more straightforward than the left turn scenario.

Do you have pretty good public transportation in Canada that your non-driving status hasn't been too much of an issue? I wish we had better public transportation here, it would be nice from an economic and environmental standpoint

 

[declansdad]

I just looked up the legality of this, I think this explains it better. Where we live, we travel along a long stretch of road with miles of stop lights. The green left turn arrows typically only last a very short time, allowing only a few cars through. There are always many more cars waiting to turn left than will actually get through, so cars always pull into the intersection to wait to turn left after yielding to oncoming traffic. Trouble is, oncoming traffic is also very long and backed up, and (Chicago drivers) will pretty much always go through yellow, and at least half the time run the red. Leaving the waiting left turners to have to go left on red too. According to this article, the left turners could be cited for this. So no, I don't think I'm overreacting. I think I should only turn left on a green if I have a green arrow, or there is no one coming for quite some time, rather than doing the "pull into the intersection and wait for an opening thing". http://pugetsoundblogs.com/roadwarr...e-turning-left-is-ok-until-the-light-changes/

That is exactly what you should do; although, you are impeding traffic if you don't make your turn when there is a safe opportunity to do so.

 

[Magpie]

Yes, I think that scenario (going straight through an intersection when it looks to be backing up) is easier and more straightforward than the left turn scenario.

Do you have pretty good public transportation in Canada that your non-driving status hasn't been too much of an issue? I wish we had better public transportation here, it would be nice from an economic and environmental standpoint

Oh yeah, I can get anywhere in town within an hour, easily. Most places, I can get there in 20 minutes with just one bus. My husband takes a bus to work. And when they finish the light rail, it'll be even faster!

Also, my town's very walkable. Almost everything I need is just a few blocks away.

I did try to get my license, but I failed three courses and then discovered I have really crummy eyesight. To quote my optometrist - "Do you drive?" Me, "No?" Her, "Oh good, then I don't have to tell you to give up your license!"

 

[katie01]

That is exactly what you should do; although, you are impeding traffic if you don't make your turn when there is a safe opportunity to do so.

Lol I realized I worded that wrong, of course I would not go left if oncoming traffic was still going through. What I meant to say is that I should not even enter the intersection to "wait for an opening" if the line of oncoming traffic is long. Everyone does this here though, and most all get caught having to go left on red then. Which according to the law is citation worthy.

Edited to add I grew up and took drivers Ed in a small town where you hardly had anyone to yield to on left turns. 17 years of living in busy suburbs has led me to follow the norms of the area

 

[katie01]

Oh yeah, I can get anywhere in town within an hour, easily. Most places, I can get there in 20 minutes with just one bus. My husband takes a bus to work. And when they finish the light rail, it'll be even faster!

Also, my town's very walkable. Almost everything I need is just a few blocks away.

I did try to get my license, but I failed three courses and then discovered I have really crummy eyesight. To quote my optometrist - "Do you drive?" Me, "No?" Her, "Oh good, then I don't have to tell you to give up your license!"

I'm sorry about your eyesight, glad it doesn't impede your independence

 

[katie01]

This appears to contradict the other article, in saying you wouldn't be cited if stuck in the intersection waiting to turn left after the light turns, if you didn't get an opening in traffic before the light change http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/09/traffic_talk_should_you_enter.html

 

[katie01]

Judging by this video and the comments underneath, the whole "entering the intersection on green, but getting stuck there after it turns red" is a subject of debate and confusion even among the experts.

 

[adisneyaunt]

Laws vary state to state regarding negligence. Some are comparative negligence, others do not etc.
It appears she was ticketed and found to be responsible for the accident in which she entered an intersection without being able to completely clear it.
The other driver came from her right side, and collided front to her right front.
There are details that will be further reviewed though.....was she at a stopped position when struck, appears she was 3/4 thru intersection, so did other driver attempt to avoid, was speed factor etc. it also may be that there was no seatbelt worn.
Irregardless, a gentleman lost his life (RIP) after suffering for 2 weeks, a family is shattered and no one walks away untouched. Very Sad
the case will likely settle before litigation is completed.

 

[AppleDumpling]

I think the law is that you are not supposed to enter the intersection unless you can clear it. If cars are backed up into the intersection, you are supposed to stay back and not enter the intersection until you can drive all the way through, even if the light is green.

Yes, this is true. At some busy intersections around here, there's a box with criss-crossed lines painted on the road in the middle, and a sign that says, "Don't Block the Box".

Still, I'm not sure of the details in this case. Was Venus' vehicle still moving or was it at a standstill when she was hit? Sounds like she passed into the intersection on a green light and then had to stop before she got completely across the intersection. The driver on the cross street would've been at a red light, and then when it turned green in his direction, hit the gas and drove straight into Venus.

Even if you legally have the right of way, why would you drive head on into a stopped vehicle that's directly in your path? You need to always be alert and aware of your surroundings when driving. Being right doesn't matter if it's not safe to proceed. It seems like both parties may be partially at fault, but it is being investigated.

I feel very sorry for the gentleman who lost his life, but also for Ms. Williams.

I agree, it's a tragedy for all involved.

 

[katie01]

Laws vary state to state regarding negligence. Some are comparative negligence, others do not etc.
It appears she was ticketed and found to be responsible for the accident in which she entered an intersection without being able to completely clear it.
The other driver came from her right side, and collided front to her right front.
There are details that will be further reviewed though.....was she at a stopped position when struck, appears she was 3/4 thru intersection, so did other driver attempt to avoid, was speed factor etc. it also may be that there was no seatbelt worn.
Irregardless, a gentleman lost his life (RIP) after suffering for 2 weeks, a family is shattered and no one walks away untouched. Very Sad
the case will likely settle before litigation is completed.

Absolutely, very sad indeed, my heart goes out to all affected

 

[katie01]

Yes, this is true. At some busy intersections around here, there's a box with criss-crossed lines painted on the road in the middle, and a sign that says, "Don't Block the Box".

Still, I'm not sure of the details in this case. Was Venus' vehicle still moving or was it at a standstill when she was hit? Sounds like she passed into the intersection on a green light and then had to stop before she got completely across the intersection. The driver on the cross street would've been at a red light, and then when it turned green in his direction, hit the gas and drove straight into Venus.

Even if you legally have the right of way, why would you drive head on into a stopped vehicle that's directly in your path? You need to always be alert and aware of your surroundings when driving. Being right doesn't matter if it's not safe to proceed. It seems like both parties may be partially at fault, but it is being investigated.



I agree, it's a tragedy for all involved.

I have never seen a "Don't Block the Box" sign, but I think they would be useful in some of our busy intersections.

I presented these scenarios to our DS who just completed driver's Ed and has a very good memory for facts, and he seemed confused as well that Venus would have been cited in this case (obviously there are particulars I don't know about, but according to the driver's Ed laws we learn here in Illinois, you do have to yield to cars in the intersection regardless of whether your light is green or not, just as you said