Vaccinations

[Tink&SquirtsMom]

DisneyPHd- I agree with everything you said. As I mentioned above I vaxxed and would again but I am growing more concerned about the recent (past 6 years) increasing government legislation protecting vaccine makers NOT vaccine receivers. While I will continue to vax I would also fully support funding for more studies about the effects and legislation that protects those who receive vaccinations. I really agree with you that its a scary issue EITHER way with scare tactics used by BOTH sides.

 

[ChrisnSteph]

I remember looking at VEARS (is that right) reports that in one year more kids actually died from reactions to the vaccination then the disease. I can't remember what one it was though, I think maybe MMR. Sorry to be posting not backed up info.

I couldn't find the report you speak of, but before you can even check out the reports you have to click a disclaimer that clearly states in every way shape and form that their data is not entirely accurate. Here are a couple of blurbs:

When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause and effect relationship has been established. VAERS is interested in all potential associations between vaccines and adverse events. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.

VAERS data are derived from a passive surveillance system and represent unverified reports of health events, both minor and serious, that occur after vaccination. Such data are subject to limitations of under-reporting, simultaneous administration of multiple vaccine antigens (making it difficult to know to which of the vaccines, if any, the event might be attributed), reporting bias, and lack of incidence rates in unvaccinated comparison groups.

While some events reported to VAERS are truly caused by vaccines, others may be related to an underlying disease or condition, to drugs being taken concurrently, or may occur by chance shortly after a vaccine was administered.

 

[Minniemouse07]

Here's a great article on common misconceptions about vaccinations. I really agree with #4, and think it's the most important reason to vaccinate.

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1029253486.html

The path that dh and I have traveled to reach the point of "not vaccinating" has not been an easy one, nor do we take this decision lightly.


#4 in the above link states:

We should still be vaccinated, for two reasons. The first is to protect ourselves. Even if we think our chances of getting any of these diseases are small, the diseases still exist and can still infect anyone who is not protected. The second reason to get vaccinated is to protect those around us.

First reason:

We weighed each disease, family health history, the prevalence of it, the safety of the vaccine and the efficacy of the vaccine. For dd we did end up giving her most of the available vaccines on the schedule and since doing more research and living through the failure of one the vaccines we felt "essential," we have come to the conclusion that currently... there aren't any vaccines that are worth giving to our kids when weighing all the factors. No study can tell me if a vaccine is safe for my specific children, only I can do that in conjunction w/ our medical professionals.

Second reason:

See here is the biggie.. it isn't MY responsibility to put MY children at risk to protect "the herd." You can call it selfish if you wish but, they are my kids and I'm not going to do something that I consider will put them in danger... even if it is for the "greater good."

Oh and FWIW, we started down this path because there are considerable health concerns if our kids get the MMR shot (nothing to do w/ autism). The more we researched, the more we learned... and we are smarter now w/ ds than we were w/ dd.

 

[DisneyPhD]

DisneyPHd- I agree with everything you said. As I mentioned above I vaxxed and would again but I am growing more concerned about the recent (past 6 years) increasing government legislation protecting vaccine makers NOT vaccine receivers. While I will continue to vax I would also fully support funding for more studies about the effects and legislation that protects those who receive vaccinations. I really agree with you that its a scary issue EITHER way with scare tactics used by BOTH sides.

That is really what I want. Not doing away with them all together, I don't think that is the answer by far. I think vaxxes have saved many lives and who knows, I might not even be here today with out them.

Just like with the VAERS reports, they don't know for 100% if the vaxxes caused the problems, they can't prove they didn't and my guess is if a otherwise healthy baby gets a fever and dies for no other apparent reason with in 48 hours of getting 4 shots, here is no amount of data that would convince their parents it wasn't the shot. Sure it is a slim chance, but it has and does happen and to those who it has it is heartbreaking and scares the pants off me. I don't know anyone in real life that it has happened to, but I have read a number of accounts of it on line. For those families my heart breaks. I just can't dismiss them as a small percentage or a statistical alimonies (did I even spell that right?????)

I just want more research and development done on making them safer and maybe not having so many in such a short time. When we were kids there was not nearly the amount their is today. Kids 10 years from now are going to have even more.

 

[Hannathy]

Look at the success we had eradicating smallpox. But it's a good thing that it was up the Greatest Generation to get their kids vaccinated. The vaccine can have severe side effects, and this generation would be too self-absorbed to do the right thing and have everyone vaccinated.

Truer words were never spoken!

Same thing could be said about the polio vaccine. They started giving that before they knew if it was completely safe because the horrors of living in a polio epidemic were well known to them.

I think that kids should be immunized to be in school and those that aren't should have to be in there own classes. I'm waiting for the critical mass of enough kids not immunized to be reached and the illnesses become epidemic again and the deaths start, I'm sure the same people who so proudly marched into school and demanded to not immunize will be suing because the Government should have made them! I guess it has been forgotten how many children were left blind or deaf from these diseases(remember Helen Keller), how many were left mentally ********, how many couldn't breathe on their own or walk, Yes it was the good days and they want to go back.

I also hope if it is so silly to immunize that the same people if they decide to go to say Africa or other countries that still have epidemics don't get the shots before the go. Because no matter what you say our kids taking a risk do protect your kids.

Think the measle outbreak in colleges is bad now, wait till this group that was never immunized gets there, a good reminder to get my DD her boosters before she goes.

You can do what you want with your kids but when it interferes with the safety of the whole country I think the decision needs to be taken away from individuals.

 

[jodifla]

The path that dh and I have traveled to reach the point of "not vaccinating" has not been an easy one, nor do we take this decision lightly.


#4 in the above link states:



First reason:

We weighed each disease, family health history, the prevalence of it, the safety of the vaccine and the efficacy of the vaccine. For dd we did end up giving her most of the available vaccines on the schedule and since doing more research and living through the failure of one the vaccines we felt "essential," we have come to the conclusion that currently... there aren't any vaccines that are worth giving to our kids when weighing all the factors. No study can tell me if a vaccine is safe for my specific children, only I can do that in conjunction w/ our medical professionals.

Second reason:

See here is the biggie.. it isn't MY responsibility to put MY children at risk to protect "the herd." You can call it selfish if you wish but, they are my kids and I'm not going to do something that I consider will put them in danger... even if it is for the "greater good."

Oh and FWIW, we started down this path because there are considerable health concerns if our kids get the MMR shot (nothing to do w/ autism). The more we researched, the more we learned... and we are smarter now w/ ds than we were w/ dd.

Except for the less of the herd that is vaccinated, the more danger your kids are in.

Vaccines are 85 percent to 95 percent effective by most accounts. That prevents diseases like measles from taking hold in a community. Once it does, it absolutely spreads like wildfire.

Take this from Wikipedia:

Unvaccinated populations are at risk for the disease. After vaccination rates dropped in northern Nigeria in the early 2000s due to religious and political objections, the number of cases rose significantly, and hundreds of children died


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles

Eventually, if enough people make the decision not to vaccinate, we're going to have a major outbreak. And once that happens, exemptions to getting vaccinated are going to dry up pretty quick.

I think a PP said it best: When you find out all doctors vaccinate their own children, you know the true story.

 

[momtoallie]

My neighbors/friends have done/are doing a lot of research about autism(it's their job) and they have found NO connection between vaccinations and autism.

FYI.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

Patchwork system means kids don't get shots


1 million may not have enough insurance for necessary vaccines, study says

Updated: 6:35 p.m. ET Aug 7, 2007
CHICAGO - For children whose health insurance doesn’t cover newly recommended shots, it’s better to have no insurance at all, a new study suggests.

Free vaccines are available to children who are uninsured or qualify for public insurance.

But many states can’t afford to help children with inadequate private insurance that doesn’t cover new, expensive shots and even some older shots, the study found. That puts more than a million children at risk, researchers said.

Illinois, for example, doesn’t provide vaccines against chickenpox, pneumonia, hepatitis A, human papillomavirus and rotavirus to children with insufficient private insurance. Parents would have to pay $400 out of pocket for those vaccines.

“Health insurance plans are not necessarily keeping up with the new vaccines, posing significant ethical dilemmas to public health clinics,” said the study’s lead author Dr. Grace Lee of Harvard Medical School.

The study of the nation’s patchwork system of paying for immunizations appears in Wednesday’s Journal of the American Medical Association.


Childhood shots have become a $1 billion-a-year endeavor for government since the discovery of polio vaccine 55 years ago. The per-child cost grew more than sevenfold from $155 in 1995 to $900 for boys and $1,200 for girls this year. Costs in the private sector are higher.

Lee and her colleagues surveyed states to find out which shots they provide and to whom. Program managers from 48 states responded. Lee wouldn’t say which states participated because researchers promised anonymity.

Sixteen of the states require health insurers to cover all recommended vaccines.

55 million and their families may be underinsured
About 55 million employees and their dependents get coverage through self-insured companies that are exempt from state mandates. Those people are the most likely to be underinsured for vaccines, said vaccine policy expert Dr. Matthew Davis of the University of Michigan.

According to the research, 17 states reported they were unable to give a vaccine for meningitis to children with inadequate private insurance, even if they were seen in public health clinics. And eight states don’t give pneumococcal shots to underinsured infants and toddlers.

A handful of states don’t provide shots for chickenpox and hepatitis A to the underinsured. Two states don’t provide Tdap, the combined booster shot for tetanus, diphtheria and pertussis (whooping cough) for 11- to 12-year-olds.

More than 1 million insured children are unable to get the meningococcal vaccine leaving them vulnerable to potentially deadly infection, the researchers estimated.

The survey did not ask about two vaccines recommended last year: an oral vaccine for infants against rotavirus, a common cause of childhood diarrhea and vomiting, and a vaccine for girls against human papillomavirus, which can cause cervical cancer.

Workers covered by plans marketed by Aetna and other insurance companies generally are covered for childhood vaccines, although they may have to pay co-payments or satisfy deductibles, said Mohit Ghose, a spokesman for America’s Health Insurance Plans.

Tough decisions
As costs rise, it may be necessary to decide at a national level which vaccines are most important, Davis said. He was not involved in the new study, but wrote an accompanying editorial in the journal.

Officials at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention oppose prioritizing vaccines and instead favor better coverage by insurers and more government funding as a safety net, said CDC immunizations director Dr. Lance Rodewald.

(for the original: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20164131/wid/11915773?GT1=10252)

******timely and interesting*****

this country has far more to worry about than those of us who choose not to vaccinate or who vaccinate selectively...

when/if this country clears this mess up, then and only then can they blame people like us for the lack of "herd immunity"...(which is a fallacy for so many reasons ....I won't get into them here!!!!)...or worse yet suggests we be forced to vaccinate our children against our will!!!!

 

[Minniemouse07]

Except for the less of the herd that is vaccinated, the more danger your kids are in.

Ah, you see there are some diseases I WANT my kids to get (chicken pox) and others they are not in danger of (Hib... because breastfeeding seems to be about as good as the vax!). As for the majority of the rest, when balancing the efficacy/safety of the vaccine, I think it is safer to get the disease.

Vaccines are 85 percent to 95 percent effective by most accounts. That prevents diseases like measles from taking hold in a community. Once it does, it absolutely spreads like wildfire.

Ah, not true anymore. Every year many vaccines are discovered to be less effective than originally thought.. as evident w/ the vaccines that we now have to have boosters for (DTaP, Chicken Pox and MMR), in fact the two MMR shots our kids "need" are because the first one generally doesn't "take" in everyone A simple blood test could tell who needs the second shot, but it is "easier" to just vax every kid 2x.

The flu shot has one of the least effective track records, some years the strains they choose protect less than 30% of thos ethat receive the vaccine!

I think a PP said it best: When you find out all doctors vaccinate their own children, you know the true story.

I actually know a number of doctors that don't vaccinate!

 

[CEDmom]

But if the vaccines work so well... then what does any have to worry about?

Because they don't work 100% in every child. There are children who still get diseases even though they were vaccinated but the odds of that happening are so much less if everyone is vaccinated.

My DD8 was adopted from China, a country where children routinely die from things like measles and mumps. Parents there would line up for hours if they had access to vaccinations like we do in this country. I think too many people view these illnesses as minor like a cold but they really do kill.

To the OP, you can break up many of the shots particularly MMR. Our DD got a measles vaccination in China because of an outbreak there so rather than reimmunize her (she tested as being vaccinated) our doctor gave her the mumps and rubella vaccinations seperately. Also, you can get them w/o the additives at the core of this controversy.

I also wanted to add one more thing that I'm sure will ruffle a few feathers but I feel if a parent isn't going to vaccinate to protect "the herd" than their child shouldn't be put among "the herd". That means not going to public school, not participating in REC sports etc. My feeling is you can't have it both ways.

 

[kribit]

We vaccinated both our children but if I had another baby, I would break them up. Both our kids had severe reactions to the MMR shot.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

I actually know a number of doctors that don't vaccinate!

I do as well...not so much don't vaccinate, vaccinate selectively.......and there are more out there who support their patients wish not to vaccinate than many would think!! They may not be very open about it or volunteer the information - but when asked in private, they are very understanding. I have found them in communities with better physicians overall..very highly reguarded

now, where I am now it is just the opposite...very few quality physicians and lots of scare tactics........my peds office has pulled out everyone they can think of ...keep saying they will drop us.....and yet years later they still accept our appointments...go figure.

 

[Feralpeg]

DD is now 19, so I admit I haven't kept up on this. Just out of curiosity, are there any studies to determine any possible connections between the increase in autism and other environmental factors? For instance, the number of women who have been on birth control pills has substantially increased over the years. Any possible link there? I have no idea, but it seems that a lot of things have changed over the past 20 years besides vaccinations.

 

[SueM in MN]

My sister has a son with Asperger's Syndrome (part of the autism spectrum). One of the first things she said when she got the diagnosis (he was about 8 at the time) was that she just 'knew' that "it was the mercury in the MMR vaccine that did it" because she had read that on the internet and heard it from other parents of children with autism.
One problem with that is that other family members had been noticing things that just didn't seem quite right about her son since he was only a few months old.
The other problem is that MMR vaccine never did have any mercury in it; it actually has no preservatives at all (or at least had when I was a public health nurse giving vaccines). Each dose needed to be individually re-constituted.

A lot of the information about autism and vaccines is what is called anectdotal information - just because something happens at the same time does not mean they are connected. A good example of this is what often happened when I was a Public Health Nurse interviewing people who had been diagnosed with salmonella. They would usually tell me they were "positive where I got it - I got sick within less than an hour after eating at xxxxx restaurant". There was nothing I could say that would convince them otherwise, even though the incubation period (the time from exposure to first symptoms) for Salmonella is 12 to 72 hours, so there is no way they could have gotten it at the restaurant they thought they did. Some of them even had doctors who agreed with them, even though it was not possible.

Also, mercury in vaccine preservatives is pointed at as the 'culpret' by a lot of people. But, most people more than 30 years old routinely used something called Mercurochrome on cuts, scrapes and generally as many part of their body that they could get away with painting it on when they got a cut or scrape. It was fun, but it was also very high in Mercury and was removed from US markets in 1998. It is still available overseas.
Mercurochrome was available starting in 1919 and most kids born between then and probably the 1970s had a LOT more exposure to mercury from using it than children ever had from vaccines.
Thermometers also were filled with mercury and when one broke, it was a chance to play with the strange liquid that stuck together. Now, it's a toxic spill.

My first job in Nursing was in a state institution for the Developmentally Delayed. There were 95 residents in my building. A handful had Down Syndrome, genetic diseases or were victims of accidents (one was a near drowning, one was a hit and run accident and one was a victim of child abuse). The majority were brain damaged from childhood diseases they got before a vaccine was available or complications of those childhood illnesses. Things like post measles encephalitis or meningitis that left many deaf, blind and brain damaged; congenital rubella syndrome and post pertussis brain inflammation.

Here is a link to a famous study about what happened in England when the vaccine rate for Pertussis went down because of fears about the vaccine.

One of the things I always reminded people is that there is nothing in life that is risk free - water is necessary for life, but too much water can lead to death (water intoxication). Oxygen is necessary for life, but breathing 100% oxygen is bad for you. I think autism is going to finally end up not being one particular cause, but will actually end up to be a number of similar conditions with a number of different causes.

 

[SueM in MN]

DD is now 19, so I admit I haven't kept up on this. Just out of curiosity, are there any studies to determine any possible connections between the increase in autism and other environmental factors? For instance, the number of women who have been on birth control pills has substantially increased over the years. Any possible link there? I have no idea, but it seems that a lot of things have changed over the past 20 years besides vaccinations.

One of the changes was to the definition of autism.
Here is a link to a story about a study done by Mayo Clinic looking at how changes to the definition of autism in 1987 and also in 1994 increased the number of cases of autims.
One of the things they found was that before the change in definition, more children were diagnosed with "retardation or developmental delay". When they looked at back at records of children:
"They identified 124 children with autism as diagnosed by DSM-IV criteria. Most had not been diagnosed as having autism, but rather as having developmental delay, delayed speech and language development, attention deficit or hyperactivity disorder, and mental retardation. Boys outnumbered girls by more than three to one."
This article also references a study that found similar increases in the number of cases of autism diagnosed in Danish children compared to cases in the US. Thimerosal had been removed from Danish vaccines in 1991, but they continued to see a rise in cases similar to the number in the US.

 

[floridafam]

I haven't read all the replies but I did want to let you know that I had to get Rhogam shots while I was pregnant and I believe they still have Thimerasol in them.

We have been researching our hearts out because we are looking at a possible autism diagnosis for our DD and there certainly is a ton of info out there. I have to admit I felt pretty crappy about the Rhogam shots when I first found out.

Isn't Thimerasol still in the flu shot, too?

Just study up as much as you can and try to be as informed as you can. I don't know what link there is but I do think there is some validity in the thinking that vaccines just aren't the same for everyone.

I can't even type anymore because the thought that I could have possibly done something to put my child at risk has me in tears. I also think that Doctors are too quick to shoot the parents down when they mention a connection. We need to have an open dialogue and reserch the issue further.

 

[DisneyPhD]

I haven't read all the replies but I did want to let you know that I had to get Rhogam shots while I was pregnant and I believe they still have Thimerasol in them.

We have been researching our hearts out because we are looking at a possible autism diagnosis for our DD and there certainly is a ton of info out there. I have to admit I felt pretty crappy about the Rhogam shots when I first found out.

Isn't Thimerasol still in the flu shot, too?

Just study up as much as you can and try to be as informed as you can. I don't know what link there is but I do think there is some validity in the thinking that vaccines just aren't the same for everyone.

I can't even type anymore because the thought that I could have possibly done something to put my child at risk has me in tears. I also think that Doctors are too quick to shoot the parents down when they mention a connection. We need to have an open dialogue and reserch the issue further.

Agreed.

Other then that I really just wanted to give you a hug. I am so sorry you are going through this right now.

 

[CathrynRose]

My child is vacinated and I don't regret. If I had another child now, I would definately research it more before I just went along with it. I was young the first time. That said, my DD's pediatrician won't see paitients unless they get vacines. He says it is a liability to his practice to have unvacinated children in the office. They "could" spread something to another child.

Just something else to think about.

There are pediatricians which will support your decision as a parent. I have a link at work - Ill post tomorrow.

Trust your gut. And yes - you can spread them out, give them later, and / or seperate.

 

[kribit]

There has got to be something in our diets causing all these cases of Autism. I'm mid 30's and I very rarely heard about Autism as a child and the cases that I did hear of were so severe the child was placed in a different school. Autism is so commonplace now that it does make me wonder if there is something we're doing to contribute. It's just too strange. The same thing goes for breast cancer. It seems that women are getting diagnosed in the late 30's whereas before the average age was 45. It's really scary.

 

[Feralpeg]

There has got to be something in our diets causing all these cases of Autism. I'm mid 30's and I very rarely heard about Autism as a child and the cases that I did hear of were so severe the child was placed in a different school. Autism is so commonplace now that it does make me wonder if there is something we're doing to contribute. It's just too strange. The same thing goes for breast cancer. It seems that women are getting diagnosed in the late 30's whereas before the average age was 45. It's really scary.

I really think the breast cancer thing has more to do with the quality of the equipment and the number of women being screened now than about an increase in breast cancer. When I was growing up, women didn't go for mammograms. I don't think my mom ever had one. Now, more women go and the equipment is so much better that it picks up the tiniest cancers.

I saw a show about a year ago. There is a doctor who has identified about 100 different breast cancers. Of those 100 types, only about ten will kill a person. Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to isolate the killer cancers from the type that are not a threat. Someday, when this becomes possible, woman with the non-dangerous types will not need treatments unless the tumors become enlarged enough to be uncomfortable. They will be treated like a benign tumor. Until that day, all cancers are treated as if they will kill. Thus, the aggressive treatments.

The number of woman who have had breast cancer in the past probably isn't that different from the number now. There just was no means to identify it unless it was an aggressive cancer that caused the woman to become ill. Many woman probably had the non-aggressive types of breast cancer and didn't know about it.

As for autism, I just don't know. It could very well be something similar in that only severe cases were recognized in the past. Today, doctors, schools and parents are so aware of these things that they are on the lookout for any signs.

For instance, I don't remember going to school with any kids suffering from ADHD. Does that mean there weren't any? Probably not. It was just that it hadn't been identified as a disorder and/or people didn't know about it. We had kids who were disruptive or who had learning problems. They were handled in different and, probably, not the best way. That being said, I do think some things are over diagnosed. When my DD was in the 4th grade, her teacher called me and told me she thought DD needed to be on medication. She said DD fidgeted in class and caused other students to lose focus. I had always been a fidgeter myself. I refused to put DD on medication. Instead, I explained to her that she needed to pay attention and stop distracting other kids. It worked to some extent. DD will always be a fidgeter. That doesn't mean she needs to be medicated. Now, I realize that there are many kids who benefit from medication, but I also believe that it is an easy way out in some situations. It is sometimes easier to excuse behavior problems by calling them something else. This is just my opinion, but I wonder if the milder forms of autism are sometimes the result of over aggressive diagnosis.