Uvalde

[Jennasis]

So please do tell how armed guards at the door would have stopped this?

https://abc7news.com/edward-kemble-elementary-school-gun-found-second-grader-sacramento/11894989/

Security guards are only possible a single step. There are others. Metal detectors. Clear backpacks. No lockers/daily locker checks. It's a complicated issue that will require a many layered approach.

 

[Buzz Rules]

So please do tell how armed guards at the door would have stopped this?

https://abc7news.com/edward-kemble-elementary-school-gun-found-second-grader-sacramento/11894989/

Metal detectors might have helped.

 

[Cheburashka]

Are you saying the US has more mental health issues than other nations?

Yes, I would actually say so. It's not the whole story, but this is a particularly sick society.

This killer bragged in the past that he wanted to do a school shooting. His teacher reported it and he was briefly institutionalized as a result, but he convinced mental health authorities that he had been "kidding", so they released him. That gullibility of mental health officials needs to go away.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

It's also really hard to work with the other side when their attempts to regulate violate the 2A.
I mean is it that hard to believe that one side wants to preserve rights that are important to them and to those that voted them in? Are we not seeing that with RvW right now, why is it when it comes to the 2A suddenly the side fighting to preserve that right is wrong?

See I don’t think the 2nd amendment gives everyone a right to own semi automatics (I disagree with the Supreme Court).
And i say this AS a gun owner.

And the constitution has been wrong before - we counted slaves as 3/5ths of a person.

Anyway I support everyone owning a musket.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Security guards are only possible a single step. There are others. Metal detectors. Clear backpacks. No lockers/daily locker checks. It's a complicated issue that will require a many layered approach.

Metal detectors might have helped.

So turn our schools into prisons instead enacting any changes to gun laws?

 

[Cheburashka]

Schools need to be better secured. There should be more use of fencing to prevent people from easily being able to get to exterior doors that are not in the front. Only the front exterior door by the office should be accessible without having to use a key to get inside the fence. That won't be popular as parents want easy access, but the culture around that needs to change. School staff mentality needs to change, too. I'm an elementary teacher & see a lot of laxity with security at my school. Many people think "it can't happen here", and that's a hard mindset to change.

Deadbolts won't be widely allowed due to fire codes, but at my school, we keep all classroom doors locked at all times, and place a magnet in the door frame to keep the door from constantly being locked shut. If there is an emergency, anyone in the room can quickly take the magnet out of the door frame & close the door, and the door will lock. We keep a cover for the door window nearby, too.

None of these are 100% guarantees. The goal is to make schools less of a soft, easy target. Shooters are often suicidal, impulsive and want to exit with a splash, feeling powerful as they control the situation inside the building. Making it hard to get into the building and/or the classroom is a deterrent.

 

[Buzz Rules]

So turn our schools into prisons instead enacting any changes to gun laws?

Change gun laws and add as much security as possible to schools.

 

[Cheburashka]

So turn our schools into prisons instead enacting any changes to gun laws?

A prison locks criminals in. Security keeps criminals out. Calling a more secure building a "prison" is a false equivalency.

 

[LSUmiss]

Yes, I would actually say so. It's not the whole story, but this is a particularly sick society.

This killer bragged in the past that he wanted to do a school shooting. His teacher reported it and he was briefly institutionalized as a result, but he convinced mental health authorities that he had been "kidding", so they released him. That gullibility of mental health officials needs to go away.

It’s often not gullibility. It’s that you can’t lock up someone for something they might do unless they’re continuing to say they will do it. And being a sociopath doesn’t make him mentally either. BUT, what you can do is make sure there is some kind of database that makes sure that someone like this cannot access any weapons ever.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

A prison locks criminals in. Security keeps criminals out. Calling a more secure building a "prison" is a false equivalency.

No it’s not. Not when you’re treating the students as the criminals.

 

[Buzz Rules]

No it’s not. Not when you’re treating the students as the criminals.

If they are doing nothing wrong, why would more security be a problem? Bullying would occur less, drug use in schools would probably go down, and backpack/locker checks would help prevent weapons being snuck in.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

If they are doing nothing wrong, why would more security be a problem? Bullying would occur less, drug use in schools would probably go down, and backpack/locker checks would help prevent weapons being snuck in.

The conversation this stemmed from was talking about 2nd graders. Tell me how armed guards, metal detectors, clear backpacks, etc isn’t treating them like criminals?

I teach these babies. They shouldn’t be the ones having to make all the changes. They should feel safe coming on campus. The change needs to come from the outside.

 

[Karin1984]

I have a serious question for non Americans. Other countries have people with mental health issues. What they don’t have is guns. What do people do in other countries do when they are evil, mentally ill etc? Like what do they do with their rage? Do they just say screw it I don’t have a gun so I will just do nothing? Do they torture animals? I want to really understand what makes people in other countries not act out like they do here

Of course having universal health care helps, but still some people fall through the cracks. Our last shooting was in 2011 and this person shouldn't have been able to obtain a gun. I am not exactly sure how hard it is to get a gun here, but besides that is the cultural issue: nobody wants to own a gun or feels the need to have one. We do not feel we need to own weapons to defend ourselves. Who is threatening us? Who do we need protection from? Why should we need a gun?

I do not know what the mentally ill who slip through do with their rage, probably mainly internalize it or use it for the people around them, but without killing.

GET. RID. OF. ALL. CURRENT. POLITICIANS.
The two party system is a scam perpetrated on the American people to keep them fighting each other while the real narcissists line their pockets and keep power. Why do you think nothing ever gets solved...because it's not good for them! Literally everyone is asleep at the wheel and doesn't see the reality of our pseudo-democracy.

The will of the people is a lot closer than most would have you believe. Most people would be closer to centrists that could at least agree to compromise on many issues if the media and internet wasn't doing the bidding of the machine and making sure people are angry all the time.

ALSO GET RID OF SOCIAL MEDIA. Holy crap how can people not see almost a direct correlation in the rise of Social media culture and the downward spiral of our society. Time to wake up to make everyone's lives better.

Getting rid of politicians won't fully help, because weapons are part of your culture.

If they are doing nothing wrong, why would more security be a problem? Bullying would occur less, drug use in schools would probably go down, and backpack/locker checks would help prevent weapons being snuck in.

Because you are normalizing something that is not normal. You do not need a weapon to bully someone and yes drugs and weapons being snuck in will go down, but it will not go away. If someone wants to, they will find ways to cheat the system.

 

[SirDuff]

If they are doing nothing wrong, why would more security be a problem? Bullying would occur less, drug use in schools would probably go down, and backpack/locker checks would help prevent weapons being snuck in.

Would you like to have your workplace set up like that? I would hate to have to only use a clear bag/purse - even though I have nothing to hide.

I mean, I work in a UN building, so we do have fairly tight security. For example, other than the main entry (where there is a security desk) all our entrances are set up with "air lock chamber" doors which prevents (or tries to) people tailgating and entering behind someone who is using a valid pass. However, having things as extreme as your suggestions would be a problem - even though I am doing nothing wrong.

Can you explain how it would reduce bullying?

 

[Jangles]

I have a serious question for non Americans. Other countries have people with mental health issues. What they don’t have is guns. What do people do in other countries do when they are evil, mentally ill etc? Like what do they do with their rage? Do they just say screw it I don’t have a gun so I will just do nothing? Do they torture animals? I want to really understand what makes people in other countries not act out like they do here

In the U.K. people have to apply for a firearms licence annually. The form has to be counter signed by a ‘professional’ to confirm mental health status. If the holder fails to reapply on the one year anniversary, the police will confiscate the weapons. There are also strict rules regarding how/where the weapons are kept.
Although we have the NHS, psychiatric services are seriously overwhelmed, particularly adolescent services post lockdown. However, we have a very ‘pro active’ Mental Health Act and it is not that difficult to ‘section’ someone who is considered mentally ill, needing inpatient treatment and a danger to themselves or others. Sadly, people found on the streets suffering a mental health breakdown are often initially taken to police stations and held in cells (usually Perspex ones, so that they can receive extra monitoring), until a psychiatric bed becomes available.
However, because of the NHS, treatment for mental illness, whether in or outpatient, including oral medication, injections, counselling, therapies etc., are all free. I think it’s the combination of this and our strict firearms laws that work .
That said, there are of course cases, where mentally ill people ‘slip through the net’ and harm others using other weapons, knives etc. Indeed, in Wales, anyone arrested for a serious crime, such as, murder, rape, grievous bodily harm etc., is initially treated as vulnerable and mentally ill, and given the assistance of an appropriate adult and solicitor during police interview and if necessary seen by a doctor based at the police station.

 

[Karin1984]

Oh, I forgot, we had an attack on our royal family in 2009. The person had a depressing life but wasnt a fanatic. He used a car and killed 7 people plus himself.
There are no rules to buy a car.

 

[Jennasis]

So turn our schools into prisons instead enacting any changes to gun laws?

Once more...WE CAN DO BOTH.

 

[Jennasis]

The conversation this stemmed from was talking about 2nd graders. Tell me how armed guards, metal detectors, clear backpacks, etc isn’t treating them like criminals?

I teach these babies. They shouldn’t be the ones having to make all the changes. They should feel safe coming on campus. The change needs to come from the outside.

They shouldn't be but sadly it seems necessary to keep them safe. An NFL game has more security than kids have at school. Heck, I shouldn't have to take my shoes off to get on an airplane because ONE guy unsuccessfully tried to light his shoe on fire! I shouldn't have to go through a full body scanner to get on airplane because ONE guy unsuccessfully tried to light his underwear on fire on an airplane either! However this is the world we live in and this is what we have to do...

Read that again. ONE guy UNSUCCESSFULLY tried to blow up his shoe and we swiftly demanded and received change. How many people have been murdered in cold blood and we are still arguing about who shouldn't have to do what? It's insane.

Gun control. Mental health. Security changes. All of it is on the table.

#WeCanDoBoth

 

[amylevan]

Someone mentioned training in order to own a gun, and i think that might be a step that could help. (Notice the word help, not solve, I really think a multi-pronged approach is required).

I am a gun owner. But in my house they reside in a locked gun safe with no easy access. As a child, I was instilled gun safety as culture. And I mean strict gun safety. Things like checking that they are empty before handing off, where the receiver again checks that it’s empty. Always pointing down range. Never pointing a gun at anyone, even if you think it’s empty. The long and the short of it is that all those rules instilled the seriousness of owning a gun. They’re not toys, life is important, etc. I sort of feel like the safety culture around gun ownership has shrunk over the years.

It might not stop mass shootings. But it might help. It might make getting a gun not worth the effort to some. And if nothing else, it would slow down purchase time, if gun purchasers were required to do a six week long class.

 

[Mango7100]

They shouldn't be but sadly it seems necessary to keep them safe. An NFL game has more security than kids have at school. Heck, I shouldn't have to take my shoes off to get on an airplane because ONE guy unsuccessfully tried to light his shoe on fire! I shouldn't have to go through a full body scanner to get on airplane because ONE guy unsuccessfully tried to light his underwear on fire on an airplane either! However this is the world we live in and this is what we have to do...

Read that again. ONE guy UNSUCCESSFULLY tried to blow up his shoe and we swiftly demanded and received change. How many people have been murdered in cold blood and we are still arguing about who shouldn't have to do what? It's insane.

Gun control. Mental health. Security changes. All of it is on the table.

#WeCanDoBoth

Yes! I can’t go to an event here without going through a metal detector and having a clear bag. This should be same for school. And I totally agree about profiling the crap out of young males—it may not be right but I don’t care at this point.

Its freaking insane that I can’t buy 2 packs of Sudafed at a time but I could buy 600 rounds of ammo. I had to take more steps and fill out more paperwork and be interviewed in order to adopt 2 guinea pigs than to purchase a mass killing machine. Think about it—I had to prove I was a responsible enough person to care for a rodent, but I could go up to any place now and purchase a weapon that frankly no civilian has any business having (other than they just “want“ one). You want to hunt? Great-use a rifle. If you can’t get your deer unless you use an AR maybe you shouldn’t hunt because you suck at shooting. You want to have a gun for home protection? Cool—you do not need an AR 15 for that.