Upside down on car loan

I have to agree that the Toyota will hold more value than the Dodge so it would probably be worth it to keep the Toyota over the Dodge. Just did a quick compare of 2004 base models of the Dodge Grand Caravan and Toyota Sienna on kellybluebook.com. The base model of the Toyota was worth $4500 more than the base model of the Grand Caravan. Mind you I looked at trade-in values not retail values and used the average mileage for the year currently 47,000 miles.

Also did an amortilization of $4000 loan at 6.0% over 30 years. You would pay $4,653 just in interest over 30 years on top of paying back the $4,000 principal. :scared1:

I agree with the above poster about just keeping the Sienna and renting a car with unlimited miles for your trips to Florida.
 
I have been upside down on a car loan and it is not a good feeling.

DH and I have leased two vehicles and for us it has worked out well. We have had to be careful about the miles that we put on the car and knew going in that we would have to be comfortable with the payment amount for the term of the lease.
In both of our leases (one thru Honda and another thru Subaru) one of the options was to buy the vehicle out before the end of the lease. Could you look into doing this and taking out a used car loan for the vehicle?

The thing that makes me nervous about you finishing the term of the lease and then turning in the van is that you are going to be way over mileage wise. Most leases allow you 12,000 miles a year (a 1,000 miles a month), if you're only 2.5 years into the lease and you are already pushing 60,000 miles you going to pay a ton in overage at the end of the lease. Pull out your lease documents and find out how much the charge is for mileage overage- they can vary. If you continue to add mileage at the rate that you are now and by the end of lease you've add another 60,000 at .12 a mile (which is about the standard charge), you're looking at $7,200.00 in mileage overage charges on top of anything that you rolled into the van when you leased it. On top of that you've got to hope that when you turn the van in the dealership doesn't sock you with excess wear and tear charges as well.

The bottom line is turning in your van in 2.5 years could end up costing you alot more than just the upside down loan amount that you rolled in. Sit down with your paperwork and run all the numbers, be honest with yourself about mileage and what you can afford. I know that financing a van for another five years is not the best advice to give you (taking on any new debt is not the best idea) but unless you have the money is savings and you know that in 2.5 years your financial picture is going to change, I don't know what else to tell you. If it was me, I would buy the van now and I would put everything that I had to paying the loan off early. The good news is that a Sienna is a realible vehicle and you should be about to drive it for a long time without having to make huge repairs to it. Good Luck, I'm sorry I don't have an easy solution for you.
 
He bought it used, negotiated the price and did a used car lease.

This is a quibble, but it seems to me that it's the kind of quibble that helps explains how the OP ended up in this situation. Contrary to the sense of the above sentence, he didn't buy the car at all.

It needs to be made crystal clear that a lease is NOT a purchase; under the original payment terms you are paying money monthly for the USE of the vehicle, not the vehicle itself. The OP isn't comfortable with that reality, so leasing is not a good choice for the OP.
 
This is a quibble, but it seems to me that it's the kind of quibble that helps explains how the OP ended up in this situation. Contrary to the sense of the above sentence, he didn't buy the car at all.

It needs to be made crystal clear that a lease is NOT a purchase; under the original payment terms you are paying money monthly for the USE of the vehicle, not the vehicle itself. The OP isn't comfortable with that reality, so leasing is not a good choice for the OP.

Actually, he did buy it. He works for a dealership. He found the car he wanted, negotiated the price with the owner of the vehicle and bought it. Then he leased it. I guess technically the dealership bought it, but he was the manager in charge of the deal.

I didn't intend to confuse anyone. I am aware that a lease is not a purchase. We have leased many vehicles including the two we are in now and several from years past.

I'll say what I said again, purchasing a car or leasing a car is a big deal, its a lot of money however you look at it. The consumer is obligated to do their own research so that they are comfortable with their purchase when they sign that contract. There are always other options.
 

TMMO Debate...please please please...

LET'S DO A 'BASIC EXAMPLE'...

I'm tired of car payments so I sell my vehicle for what I owe...AFTER saving $1500 to buy a good reliable "CHEAPO people laugh at me car for $1500.

I was paying $400 per month and now that $400 per month is going to ME.

So I save $400 per month for 2 years in an account that earns 5%.

At the end of 24 months, I now have $10332. Wow, I kindof like having money, so let's buy a $5K vehicle now. It's nice being in a better car and people aren't laughing as I drive by anymore. That's nice.... So I sell ole Bessie for $800. So I only have to take $4200 out of savings; leaving $6132 in savings.

Fast forward 2 more years....I'm still saving $400 per month and it's easy now....AND I have a PAID FOR car AND $17000 in the bank. Now subtract out repairs that I've done...

So in 4 years I have a PAID FOR VEHICLE and $15000 in the bank. I can buy a NICER car AND go to DISNEY BABY!! :)

Now imagine that I put this money in mutual funds which earn a lot more than 5%.....

Now let's imagine you apply this same idea to not having credit card payments or home equity loans....can you BUILD WEALTH???

Trish
 
Everyone hates car dealerships because they make a profit. I'm sorry that they won't sell you a car at what it costs to make it.

I don't think this is true at all. I understand that they are in business to make money. But virtually every other retail business sets a price for their merchandise and that's what all customers pay. (Airlines and hotels would be notable exceptions.) What people hate is that every person who walks into that dealership is likely to pay a different price for the same car depending on how educated they are and how well they negotiate. There has even been good evidence that your gender and race come into play. Then you go in with the finance guy and get screwed with again.

How would you like it if when you went to the grocery store you had to haggle over the price of the items in your cart? Or if you found out that the guy before you paid 5 cents less/gallon for gas.

One big reason why Saturn has been successful is fixed pricing. Everyone buying the same car pays the same price. What a simple concept that would be equally simple for other companies to emulate, but they refuse to do so. Car dealers, unfortunately, are generally deserving of the animosity the public has toward them. It could be very easily remedied but they keep resisting.

Sorry to go OT. I do have some comments for the OP but don't have time to post them right now.
 
I've never leased a car, so I don't know if this is an option....but is there a way to convert a lease to a regular purchase? If you can bite the bullet, it's best to keep a car as long as you can, once it's paid off. We usually drive our cars for 10+ years. It's not sexy, but man is it nice to have that extra hundreds of dollars each month.

If there's not a way to convert lease to straight purchase, then you know the answer. Try not to run up the miles any more than you have to. Also, consider buying it when the lease is up.

I love Toyotas, and love their reliability. BTW, TNT Walter, you really made your case for buying a cheap car very clear. Sometimes I get confused by details, but the way you spelled it out was brilliant!:goodvibes
 
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If you go into a dealership and pick out two of the EXACT same NEW cars with all the exact same options then they would be the same price. Prices do fluctuate though, based on options that are added to vehicles. There are also options that are added at the dealership that are added to the cost above MSRP. Used cars are a different story. There isn't any kind of set pricing for used cars. If the price is higher than what you would like or you haven't done your research before you buy then I feel its your own fault. And if you don't like the rate you get in the finance office then go get your own financing. Take your time to do that instead of having the dealership take their time to do that. If you don't want warrenties or additional insurance than don't buy it. You can say no.

If I don't like the price of the gas or groceries where I am then I have the option to go somewhere else. Maybe the guy before me that got a better price was not buying the exact same thing I am.

And yes, I guess maybe your education or ability to negotiate can affect the price. But its your option to educate yourself. Its the same thing buying a house. One person might be able to get a house thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars cheaper than someone else based on their education and/or ability to negotiate the price. Of course you don't hear alot of crying about that because its an even bigger ticket item and its an appreciating asset.

It comes down to this, if you're going to buy a car, do your research. Know what you can afford and what your comfortable with. Don't expect the dealership to do that for you. If you go in and say you can afford $200 a month and ask about a car that would have a $400 payment because you think its nicer or prettier or flashier and end up with it, its your own fault.

The truth is people want to blame the dealership but it comes down to greed and keepig up with the Jones. You can only afford the $200 car payment, and you know it, but you want the car that's more because it looks nicer or its newer. No one is forcing you to buy that more expensive newer car. YOU have the option to buy something else. You have the option to do your research and understand your financing options and what you can afford and how the car will depreciate. Its easier than ever now to do that with the internet.

But people want to go into a dealership and have someone else do that for them. Its not their responsibilty. If you want the car and can buy it then they will sell it to you. Its not their responsibility to figure out if you can really afford it.
 
OP -

Check the terms of your lease and find out if you are able to sell the car to someone else and pay your way out of your lease. Call your lease company and find out if its an option. Your lease company would be able to tell you exactly what you would have to sell it for to get out of it free and clear. You could always try to sell the car either in one of the online car listing places or through your local paper or something. Who knows, maybe you could get very close to what you owe on it and then pay the difference. Then you wouldn't have to worry about the mileage overage. You could also go to your local credit union or bank and see about getting a loan for that amount yourself and buying the car. That would also get you out of the mileage problem. But whatever you do I would not roll over any more negative equity.
 
If you go into a dealership and pick out two of the EXACT same NEW cars with all the exact same options then they would be the same price.

This simply isn't true. If it were, we would have no need for things like Edmunds.com to look up dealer invoice data, incentives, etc. Car prices are negotiable. How much you pay depends on how well armed you go into the dealership.

I agree with you regarding used cars, though even there you can look at Carmax who sells all used cars at fixed prices, no negotiating or haggling.

Car buying doesn't need to be the painful experience it currently is most places.

You can't compare buying a house to buying a car. When we bought our house, we were buying it from an individual, not a business. They had to pick an asking price to start, but then had to evaluate each offer that came in and decide if they were willing to accept that price. When buying a brand new home, the price is generally pretty firm. Sometimes, depending on demand, the builder may drop the price or throw in some incentives, but the price is still generally fixed.

It comes down to this, if you're going to buy a car, do your research. Know what you can afford and what your comfortable with. Don't expect the dealership to do that for you. If you go in and say you can afford $200 a month and ask about a car that would have a $400 payment because you think its nicer or prettier or flashier and end up with it, its your own fault.
I agree with this 100%. It is the buyer's responsiblity to determine what he/she can afford. That's true with houses, too. All the people that are currently facing foreclosure for buying homes they couldn't possibly afford with all types of creative financing deals have nobody to blame but themselves.
 
Well, we still owe 12K on our SUV as well and we could sell it for a little profit, but we think it is wiser to keep the car (not lose the depreciation) and make it last as long as we can. Then in the FUTURE we plan to try to buy with CASH only.

I think you can read DR and follow as much as you think is wise for you. Obviously noone can have the answer for everyone.

But I do think it the OP should look at what he has to say about the decision she has to make.

Oh, and because of DR we have paid off two student loans, and all of our credit cards years before we would have otherwise. We are also paying down the car faster than the monthly payments and putting all "found" money into it. We plan to never have CC or auto loans again, ever.

Dawn


For those of you quoting Dave Ramsey, I listened to his radio show a lot and never could understand his attitude towards getting rid of your car and making it seem so easy. He always tells his callers with a car loan to sell the car and buy a new cheap one with cash. We have a truck that we owe $12,000 on. We wouldn't get $12,000 if we sold it, so we'd still have a balance on that loan, then we'd have to come up with money for another cheap car, so we'd still end up with a monthly payment. Why does he make it seem so easy when it's not? And I sure do remember him telling everyone to get 2 or 3 more jobs. At the expense I guess of not seeing your family or sleeping!

Sorry to hijack the thread, we're in the same sort of situation and would love to get rid of the truck, but it doesn't make sense to me to get rid of a vehicle that works great just to get a cheaper crappier car.
 
We've got a Toyota Corolla that's over 8 years old (100,000+ miles) and still going strong. As a general rule, Toyota vehicles hold their value well and are low-maintenance.

IMO, you should finish out your lease on your current vehicle. Make sure to reduce your mileage so that you aren't out too much in mile overages at the end of the lease. Also, put a little bit aside in savings each paycheck so that you have money for a downpayment on the purchase of another vehicle in another 2.5 years.
 
A little late to the show, but if you buy a new car, you will just be further upside down. Every time you buy or lease a new car and drive it off the lot, you get further in the hole. The only way to stop this is to stop buying/leasing new cars.

Sell the leased car and take the loss. Get some type of loan to cover it and get yourself a decent used car for $3-4k. I have two of them in the driveway that are perfectly safe and reliable, so I know it can be done.
 
A little late to the show, but if you buy a new car, you will just be further upside down. Every time you buy or lease a new car and drive it off the lot, you get further in the hole. The only way to stop this is to stop buying/leasing new cars.

I agree. New cars depreciate as much as 30% in value in the first 2 years. You are much better off buying a 2 year old car after someone else has taken the big depreciation hit. I'm not a fan of buying really old cars, but 2-3 years I think is really the sweet spot where you can get something like new, still under warranty but for much less than new.

Since you have already taken the depreciation hit on your current car, I say keep it. At the end of the lease, buy the vehicle and keep it for the long run. A well-maintained Sienna should be good for 150-200K miles easily. If you drive 20K/year, that's 10 years of ownership for you. During the time when you have no payments, put money aside every month in a car fund so that you have cash to buy the next used car when the time comes.

As for using home equity to buy a car, that isn't always a bad idea. I've done it myself. Years ago we took out a HEL to pay off some student loans and my car loan. The rate on the HEL was lower than the rates on the loans we were repaying, so we saved a bunch of money in interest by using the HEL that way. It isn't right for everyone, but it worked for us.
 
I have a large family(4 children), so I always needed a full-size van. In the span of 10 years, I owned 3 of the very same van, a GMC Safari. On the first 2, I purchased an extended warranty for about $2000, but we never financed the extended warranty. We would wait until the van had reached about 35,000 miles, then pay cash for the warranty. I am not sure if that was a good idea or not, but we just did not want to finance it. The first van needed an expensive repair at about 70,000 miles, which was covered under the warranty. I still had to haggle with GMC to get them to pay for it, but they did. The second van needed only one repair, the windshield wiper motor, that was covered under the extended warranty. However, I had issues with the (new for that year) ABS brakes. The dealership insisted the brakes were fine, but I HATED them! At 96,000 miles, I had paid 3 years of a 5-year loan, and traded it in. I took a loss, but I just did not feel safe in it. The third van was considered a "new" van because it had never been titled, but the van had been used to drive big-name golfers to a big golf tournament that was hosted in part by Chevrolet, so I got what I considered to be a good deal on it. It had several options that I would not have ordered, but it was discounted a few thousand dollars, and had 2000 miles on it. I still qualified for "new car" interest rates(I called all the local banks for the lowest rate, and did not go with the dealership's offer). Two months later, a teenager ran a stop sign near my daughter's middle school, and did $10,000 worth of damage to my $26000 van. The bulk of the cost was replacing the two front airbags, but I was without a van for 2 weeks. And this happened 2 days before our trip to Disney, so I drove a nasty rental van to Disney! We found out that the accident voided what was left of our original warranty(36,000 mile)and we were not able to purchase the extended warranty. At 49,000 miles, the transmission went out, and GMC insisted it was not a defect in the van. The mechanic that charged me $3000 to rebuild it said otherwise, but there was not an official recall. There was no way we could get rid of this van without taking a huge loss, so I drove it for 4 years after the accident. Luckily, after the transmission, the other repairs were relatively minor. But 4 years was the longest I had ever driven the same van, and I was so sure something was going to go wrong at any moment. I don't know why I thought that, because what should have been going out at 100,000 miles had needed repairing at 49,000! While shopping for a new car for my then 16-year-old(I do NOT reccommend anyone else do this!), I found a really good deal on a brand new Suburban, which is what I really wanted every time I bought a van! Sure, it got 5-7 less miles per gallon than my van, but I really liked it! We paid $2000 down for it, and went through our credit union for financing. I parked my van in my yard with 109,000 miles on it, and put a "For Sale" sign on it. I sold it in 3 days! Because of the accident, I asked only half of what it's Blue Book value was. Trade-in value of vans is VERY low. We learned that vans overall have a very poor resale value, so you are better off to drive one until the wheels fall off! We never leased anything, so I don't know what to suggest to get out of yours. My only advice is to REALLY think about what your next vehicle purchase will be. Do your research before purchasing another van, because you will come out a whole lot better if you could drive it for 4-5 years. My neighbor drove the same van for 10 years(unheard of, I know!) She faithfully maintained it, and put 100 miles on it per day, 5 days a week, for 5 of those years. She had any little repair done immediately, and never let minor problems turn into big ones. When she decided to buy another vehicle, she researched every available make on the market, and finally decided on a Honda Odyssey. She ordered exactly what she wanted, and paid cash for it. According to her, cash is what you have when you don't have to make car payments! Anyway, after 7 years in her Honda, she recently took it in for an expensive repair, which cost about $2500. Because of her faithful maintenance, she will be driving it for another 7! And I plan to be in my Suburban then, too. I have to admit, driving my third van for so long was a great decision, but not one I would have made on my own. Because of how "upside down" we were at the time, I had no choice. The only way I would take a loss on a vehicle right now would be if I did not feel safe in it. If you know that you will take a loss on your leased vehicle, your only decision is when and how much. Figure out the best way out, and make sure you choose your next vehicle wisely!
 
This simply isn't true. If it were, we would have no need for things like Edmunds.com to look up dealer invoice data, incentives, etc. Car prices are negotiable. How much you pay depends on how well armed you go into the dealership.


It is true though. Law requires dealers to keep the MSRP sticker on new vehicles. If you get a better price than that good for you. You did your homework, or you negotiated well, or you just plain got lucky and they were having a bad day and you got a good deal. But the MSRP is posted clearly on the vehicle.
 
If you had to lease a car because you couldn't afford the payments on a regular car loan, how are you going to afford the payments on a home improvement loan?

.

Well, I was upside down and that's why the payments ended up being so high. My house payment is very low(less than my car payment) I am refinancing, which will increase my payment, but will incorporate a higher interest loan as well. I am not having trouble paying my bills at all, just disheartened that I am so upside down.

I can buy out the lease, but I owe $7K more than the blue book value. No bank will loan me that much more than a car is worth. At this point, I will keep paying and try to pay extra whenever I can. Once I get to the point that I can finance the van through my credit union, I will buy it from the lease. Then I can either drive it or sell it and get something newer.

Not going to DIsney is not an option for me, at least for this year. Renting a car may be an option. To me, it doesn't make sense to rent a car for a week to drive to the beach--it's around 400 miles round trip, 15 cents a mile in overage would be 60.00, while renting a car would be more than that. Besides, if I follow my plan, I don't need to worry so much about mileage, right?

Thanks for all the advice. I'll definitely consider it all. And I will finance through the credit union next time; they have been truthful with me everytime I have dealt with them.


Marsha
 
Law requires dealers to keep the MSRP sticker on new vehicles.

Surely you can't be serious. Yes, the MSRP is on the window but anyone who walks in and pays sticker price is a moron (with the rare exception of an extremely popular model in high demand).

The MSRP is essentially meaningless, since that is not the price the vehicle actually sells for. What it actually sells for is the price the buyer negotiates with the dealer. My point is that the reason people hate car shopping is that they don't want to have to negotiate to feel like they are getting a decent deal. We don't negotiate at the supermarket or a restaurant or a movie theater or Target. The merchandise or service has a set price and everyone pays it. If you don't like the price, you go elsewhere. With the exception of Saturn and Carmax, that isn't generally an option when purchasing a vehicle new or used. There is no set price and no 2 people will get the exact same deal on the exact same car. Whether you agree or not, most customers find it to be a very frustrating experience. That is one reason why we buy our cars and keep them as long as possible. Partly to save money but partly to avoid the car buying process. I've got a 98 Camry that I hope to have at least 5 more years and DW has a 2000 Sienna that we hope to have 3-4 more years.
 
I have two questions about leases:

1. If you buy the car at the end of the lease period, do you still have to pay for excess mileage?

2. Is it possible to negotiate the sale price to buy the car at the end of the lease or is that fixed?
 
I have two questions about leases:

1. If you buy the car at the end of the lease period, do you still have to pay for excess mileage?

2. Is it possible to negotiate the sale price to buy the car at the end of the lease or is that fixed? If you are over the mileage

I will try to answer your questions (now keep in mind, I'm not an expert and I don't pretend to be).

In my experience with the two leases that I have done- the excesss mileage only comes into play if you turn in the car. In other words if you walk away from the lease and you have excess miles, you're going to pay the fees. If you're willing to purchase the car at the end of the lease option, then you don't have to pay for the mileage because the car is now considered yours.

In both cases of our lease, you couldn't negotiate the sale price of the car. We (DH and I) leased an Outback and found that it was too small near the end of the contract for our needs, so we bought out the lease and then sold the car thru a private seller and came out ahead. The lease was not owned by the actual car company but another loan company (Chase?) and so we were not paying the car company but the loan company and there was no option to negotiate.

In case of our current lease (we have a Honda Van), Honda leased an extreme amount of 2004 Vans. Because of this it has driven down the price of the vans- the amount that we would own at the end of the lease is much more than what it would cost us if we were to purchase the exact same van from someone else trading in their van. We will be walking away from this lease in two months and purchasing a car (leasing has gotten old for us and it has served it's purpose by DH and I are ready to own a car again).

Did that answer you questions?
 

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