*** Updated to add spring break Data*** New Data, FP+ impacting wait times, discuss

[2Tiggies]

If Disney is getting the result they want, then why do they keep talking about making changes to the system? Maybe because they've been hearing about it from the 20%?

Well for a start, we know that Disney won't admit to a fail. They are glossing over the issues to save face but they are well aware there is a serious problem and are desperate to gain some sort of control over it. I suspect this is part of the reason we have had so little communication on the final product from Disney. They don't want to have to retract anything or admit they are wrong so they say nothing. They respond to critical questions without actually answering them. It's a case of even if we make a mistake we are never wrong. Planning has gone from being enjoyable to being a headache. Especially since we know that no matter how many hours we put into careful planning, the rules will have changed by the next week/month and we are back to the drawing board. I don't think I have planned as much collectively for the last 6 years of trips as I have for our upcoming one. And I do consider myself a planner, but for the love of Pete! This presents a level of crazy in a realm of its own ....!

 

[jade1]

Well for a start, we know that Disney won't admit to a fail. They are glossing over the issues to save face but they are well aware there is a serious problem and are desperate to gain some sort of control over it. I suspect this is part of the reason we have had so little communication on the final product from Disney. They don't want to have to retract anything or admit they are wrong so they say nothing. They respond to critical questions without actually answering them. It's a case of even if we make a mistake we are never wrong. Planning has gone from being enjoyable to being a headache. Especially since we know that no matter how many hours we put into careful planning, the rules will have changed by the next week/month and we are back to the drawing board. I don't think I have planned as much collectively for the last 6 years of trips as I have for our upcoming one. And I do consider myself a planner, but for the love of Pete! This presents a level of crazy in a realm of its own ....!

Yep, the system was built with all the "changes" as possibilities-it's still FP+. It's just the starting blocks as many of us have always said, but future expansion still needs to happen to take full advantage of what FP+ can offer IMO.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Well for a start, we know that Disney won't admit to a fail. They are glossing over the issues to save face but they are well aware there is a serious problem and are desperate to gain some sort of control over it. I suspect this is part of the reason we have had so little communication on the final product from Disney. They don't want to have to retract anything or admit they are wrong so they say nothing. They respond to critical questions without actually answering them. It's a case of even if we make a mistake we are never wrong. Planning has gone from being enjoyable to being a headache. Especially since we know that no matter how many hours we put into careful planning, the rules will have changed by the next week/month and we are back to the drawing board. I don't think I have planned as much collectively for the last 6 years of trips as I have for our upcoming one. And I do consider myself a planner, but for the love of Pete! This presents a level of crazy in a realm of its own ....!

Yes, and WHY are you, and others like you, willing to put that much time and effort into planning for a vacation? Because theme parks are your favorite place to go, and these trips mean a lot to you and your family. Hence, you're likely to keep coming back, again and again, at least until it's no fun anymore or just not worth the money and hassle.

Some of us may reach that point sooner than later, thanks to FP+. Disney needs to start thinking about the 80/20 rule, and place that ahead of face-saving maneuvers.

 

[2Tiggies]

Yes, and WHY are you, and others like you, willing to put that much time and effort into planning for a vacation? Because theme parks are your favorite place to go, and these trips mean a lot to you and your family. Hence, you're likely to keep coming back, again and again, at least until it's no fun anymore or just not worth the money and hassle.

Some of us may reach that point sooner than later, thanks to FP+. Disney needs to start thinking about the 80/20 rule, and place that ahead of face-saving maneuvers.

Actually, I looked into seeing what I would lose by canceling this trip about 5 weeks ago. My flights are not refundable and I have booked excursions that I can't get my money back on. Simply put, we have crossed that point you mention but I will lose more than I gain by canceling. Where I would normally already have our next trip in the making in the back of my mind, we have no plans to return until I see a model of a system that appears to be working a lot better than this one is (in terms of what I deem to be 'value' for us in a vacation). As a repeat visitor I get the not so uncommon "WHY do you keep ......" from people and have never felt the need to justify it because to us, the experience we have had and the financial outlay has, without exception, always been more than worth it for us. Ironically, this time I am having to work really hard to try justify to myself the investment relative to the reward. I feel short changed. I may be a devoted fan but I'm also not a fool.

 

[MrInfinity]

Some of us may reach that point sooner than later, thanks to FP+. Disney needs to start thinking about the 80/20 rule, and place that ahead of face-saving maneuvers.

They do. Therein lies the breakdown. Many think they're in the 80 and Disney should be creating a system for them, yet are actually in the 20. Everyone out here "supporting" you and going "you're right man, I just went and it sucked I got on so much less than before -- you're not in the minority here" really *is* in the minority.

Think about it. The reason you get on so much less is cuz Disney is having the other 80% go ahead of you by handing them FP's they never used before.

Don't know what else to add. This thread has degraded to "FP+ sucks". Oh well.

 

[Angel Ariel]

They could decide to stay on-site. Just like Universal Studios, staying on-site is beginning to have real advantages.

If Disney were marketing this as an onsite perk, I would agree with you. They aren't. If I weren't on the DIS, and had only watched the Vacation Planning DVD and the shows on Destination America last week, the only understanding I would have of FP+ is that FP+ is prebooking rides before you get to Disney (as that is the only way that it is defined) and that FP+ is included with my theme park admission. I would have *no* reason to think that I would *have* to stay onsite to be able to prebook.

 

[jtowntoflorida]

Well for a start, we know that Disney won't admit to a fail. They are glossing over the issues to save face but they are well aware there is a serious problem and are desperate to gain some sort of control over it. I suspect this is part of the reason we have had so little communication on the final product from Disney. They don't want to have to retract anything or admit they are wrong so they say nothing. They respond to critical questions without actually answering them. It's a case of even if we make a mistake we are never wrong. Planning has gone from being enjoyable to being a headache. Especially since we know that no matter how many hours we put into careful planning, the rules will have changed by the next week/month and we are back to the drawing board. I don't think I have planned as much collectively for the last 6 years of trips as I have for our upcoming one. And I do consider myself a planner, but for the love of Pete! This presents a level of crazy in a realm of its own ....!

The only time it seems that "Disney" actually says something public about MM+ in general is in their financial reports and during analyst calls when they get questions about it. Once, just once, I wish an analyst would actually do some homework and ask some tough questions about this. But they don't , because they don't care. To a giant like Disney, $1B in infracture improvements isn't that much, especially spread over as many years as MM+ has been. The fact is no one (besides the guest) cares about MM+ because ultimately this isn't really affecting Disney financially. Their stock price is through the roof. Dividends are higher than ever before. Even if one of the theme parks stumbles, Disney still has all the other parks as well as the entertainment stuff, including ESPN, which is huge for them. The parks are their second largest segment, but they still only account for 20% of revenue. In comparison, the media segment is over 60% of its revenue. Even if the 20% if Disney diehard guests would miraculously agree to boycott the parks, it's not going to move the needle at all, and thus, no one will continue to care. We can whine and moan all we want about it, but the only thing we can really do now is learn to live with this, which is why I liked seeing Josh's data. The value in it is changing (tempering?) expectations.

It's frustrating and it sucks. I am encouraged that Disney seems to be at least taking some guest suggestions under advisement and making some changes, but ultimately, the whole system could be a complete cluster but I ultimately think that this is mostly a nuisance for Disney rather than something they're really worried about.

 

[jade1]

They do. Therein lies the breakdown. Many think they're in the 80 and Disney should be creating a system for them, yet are actually in the 20. Everyone out here "supporting" you and going "you're right man, I just went and it sucked I got on so much less than before -- you're not in the minority here" really *is* in the minority.

Think about it. The reason you get on so much less is cuz Disney is having the other 80% go ahead of you by handing them FP's they never used before.

Don't know what else to add. This thread has degraded to "FP+ sucks". Oh well.

Agreed. Any many of us in the 80% really don't mind the 20% complaining because FP+ has much more to offer than it's current form even for us 80%.

Simply dropping FP and going back to FP- would be bad for us 80%, but that seems like a sailed ship. So the only option for WDW is expansion (or charging) IMO and getting this running the way it was designed.

Plus I think FP- would just have the same rules applied anyway now, tiers, one park and a FP- every 4 hours.

 

[JimmyV]

They do. Therein lies the breakdown. Many think they're in the 80 and Disney should be creating a system for them, yet are actually in the 20....
The reason you get on so much less is cuz Disney is having the other 80% go ahead of you by handing them FP's they never used before.

Citation??

It all boils down so nicley if you assume that these made up numbers are true. Where is the statistical backup that establishes that 80% of all guests are now jumping ahead of me because they never used Fast Passes before? I've never seen anything like that (except here where people on both sides invent percentages to prove their point). Were 20% of the guests responsible for draining the TSM well every day by 11:00? Did the other 80% of the guests observe the "running of the bulls" at Rope Drop and never once question what the 20% were running to or why? Or maybe the 20% all arrive at the park opening, and the 80% all saunter in at 11:00. None of these possibilities can be true.

What I witnessed was 17.5 % of people enjoying the Parks in ways that they never had before, and 82.5% of the guests grumbling about getting fewer Fast Passes, long kiosk lines and an app that wouldn't work due to connectivity problems. See? I made up those numbers, but they sure look good.

 

[bcrook]

They do. Therein lies the breakdown. Many think they're in the 80 and Disney should be creating a system for them, yet are actually in the 20. Everyone out here "supporting" you and going "you're right man, I just went and it sucked I got on so much less than before -- you're not in the minority here" really *is* in the minority.

Think about it. The reason you get on so much less is cuz Disney is having the other 80% go ahead of you by handing them FP's they never used before.

Don't know what else to add. This thread has degraded to "FP+ sucks". Oh well.

That's not the 80/20 law Davey Jones II was referring to...try this.

You have explained over and over again that the new system will meet more unique customers needs and therefore that is better for Disney. It kind of flies in the face of the Pareto Principle.

It is worth discussing.

Your turn, explain why Disney doesn't have to worry about basic business rules.

 

[MrInfinity]

It all boils down so nicley if you assume that these made up numbers are true. Where is the statistical backup that establishes that 80% of all guests are now jumping ahead of me because they never used Fast Passes before?

It's RIGHT THERE. You say yourself you had to wait longer because other ppl were now using FP+ for say, POTC. Well, who are these ppl mysteriously going ahead of you? Why are you standing in line? Obviously the ride is still running -- but your line is moving slower... and you don't have a FP, and tons of other ppl are still walking past you... wow they never seem to end... still! It's like Disney is giving out fastpasses to everyone these days! Oh wait -- they are.

I know a LOT of ppl that go to Disney World. None of them frequent the disboards. And they ALL come home thrilled, happy, longing to be there, happy memories. They go knowing it'll be hot, there'll be lines, and they'll have a happy vacation. And they do. I don't know a single person, other than who I find out here on disboards, that comes home and goes "wow that sucked I'm never going back -- I had to wait in a line".

I know it's easy to associate w the disboards and have ppl share your frustration and then start to think you're in the majority because other fanatics(like me) who used to tour like you are also not getting on what they used to...

I've never seen anything like that

See, it doesn't matter what you've seen. You are just a person. You are DEFINITELY getting on fewer rides. This is a given. The guy next to you also complaining, is also DEFINITELY getting on fewer rides. Everyone supporting you is probly so. But that's it. 100 people out here posting over and over.

The other 15-million are taking trips like normal, having fun like normal, and are now using FP+ to go ahead of you in line cuz you only get 3 and you used to get 6 or 7.

82.5% of the guests grumbling about getting fewer Fast Passes

82.5% of guests THAT USED TO BE FP- USERS. Right? Not 82.5% of guests getting less. You're looking at 82.5% of the people who used to get 7 or more fastpasses now get less. OF COURSE. (heck, I'd say 100% of guests that used to get 7 FP- now get only 3 FP+) But that was only a small % of the total ppl going.

long kiosk lines and an app that wouldn't work due to connectivity problems. See? I made up those numbers, but they sure look good.

These are technicalities. You install a new system, it's gonna have problems. They will get ironed out. The existence of "growing pains" do not make the case to "not attempt to grow". They will work out the sensors, the site, etc.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Come on none of us are immoral, sinful, or awful.



It's not an improvement for you. It's clearly worse for you.

But it's better for so many others. I know that's not a consolation, but that's the way it is. Disney is catering to the masses, not you and me.

At best, it's only marginally better for the 50% of guests who weren't using FP. Only one of the reservations on FP+ are useful, and overall wait times have increased thanks to the clunkiness of the new system, coupled with outright glitches.

 

[Davey Jones II]

That's not the 80/20 law Davey Jones II was referring to...try this.

You have explained over and over again that the new system will meet more unique customers needs and therefore that is better for Disney. It kind of flies in the face if the Pareto Principle.

It is worth discussing.

Your turn, explain why Disney doesn't have to worry about basic business rules.

Right. The particular application of Pareto's Principle is the one cited in the second paragraph of that article: "It is a common rule of thumb in business; e.g., "80% of your sales come from 20% of your clients".

Why has it become a rule of thumb? Well, there's probably a hell of a lot of truth in it. Now, in Disney's case, it may be 75/25. Or 70/30. Or 85/15? Regardless, it's inarguable that repeat business is important to the theme park industry. And currently, Disney is pissing off the 20%.

 

[Angel Ariel]

It's RIGHT THERE. You say yourself you had to wait longer because other ppl were now using FP+ for say, POTC. Well, who are these ppl mysteriously going ahead of you? Why are you standing in line? Obviously the ride is still running -- but your line is moving slower... and you don't have a FP, and tons of other ppl are still walking past you... wow they never seem to end... still! It's like Disney is giving out fastpasses to everyone these days! Oh wait -- they are.

I know a LOT of ppl that go to Disney World. None of them frequent the disboards. And they ALL come home thrilled, happy, longing to be there, happy memories. They go knowing it'll be hot, there'll be lines, and they'll have a happy vacation. And they do. I don't know a single person, other than who I find out here on disboards, that comes home and goes "wow that sucked I'm never going back -- I had to wait in a line".

I know it's easy to associate w the disboards and have ppl share your frustration and then start to think you're in the majority because other fanatics(like me) who used to tour like you are also not getting on what they used to...



See, it doesn't matter what you've seen. You are just a person. You are DEFINITELY getting on fewer rides. This is a given. The guy next to you also complaining, is also DEFINITELY getting on fewer rides. Everyone supporting you is probly so. But that's it. 100 people out here posting over and over.

The other 15-million are taking trips like normal, having fun like normal, and are now using FP+ to go ahead of you in line cuz you only get 3 and you used to get 6 or 7.

82.5% of guests THAT USED TO BE FP- USERS. Right? Not 82.5% of guests getting less. You're looking at 82.5% of the people who used to get 7 or more fastpasses now get less. OF COURSE. But that was only a small % of the total ppl going.

These are technicalities. You install a new system, it's gonna have problems. They will get ironed out. The existence of "growing pains" do not make the case to "not attempt to grow". They will work out the sensors, the site, etc.

You seriously think the only people who have issues with FP+ are people on the DIS?

Every person I have talked to - most of them not huge Disney fans, much less people you'd find on a board like this - every single one of them has disliked the idea of prebooking attractions. Not even talking about limits or tiers or what have you. Every single one of them has said something along the lines of "why in the world would I want to plan my day down to what ride I'm riding at what time before I get there?" Even understanding that FP+ would get them into 3 rides with shorter lines, even if they booked the day-of, none of these people have liked the idea.

Is it really so incredibly "out there" to think that many people have no desire to be so incredibly scheduled on vacation? These are the same people who didn't use FP- because they didn't want to be beholden to the return time on the ticket....the fact that they can choose the time doesn't change that they don't want to be beholden to a return time.

 

[MrInfinity]

Hi Ariel,

You seriously think the only people who have issues with FP+ are people on the DIS?

No, I think people who used to pull lots of FPs are the ones who have issues, and the ones that pulled few or no FPs are better off or equal.

Every single one of them has said something along the lines of "why in the world would I want to plan my day down to what ride I'm riding at what time before I get there?"

You don't have to. I'm travelling w several ppl who haven't even looked at FP+ and our trip is in May. They are not worried, they're ecstatic to be going! It's there for ppl who want to use it. Usage stats are showing most ppl are choosing to use it. Far more than FP-. If you disagree w this, then ask yourself why, again, ppl are going ahead of you as you stand in standby for POTC.

You can pick on the bus ride to the park. You can pick at the hotel. You can pick on your phone while walking around the park. You can walk up to a ride, see it's got a long wait, and pick right then and there. There are so many ways to use FP+. This is what's making it so successful -- it can be used so easily. Rides aren't running out. Unless you want the SDMT or A&E greet, you can get pretty much any other ride, day-of.

These are the same people who didn't use FP- because they didn't want to be beholden to the return time on the ticket....the fact that they can choose the time doesn't change that they don't want to be beholden to a return time.

Actual results are proving otherwise. More ppl are using FP+. That is why those who used to get on 7 times are now getting on less.

 

[coopersmom]

You seriously think the only people who have issues with FP+ are people on the DIS?

... Is it really so incredibly "out there" to think that many people have no desire to be so incredibly scheduled on vacation? These are the same people who didn't use FP- because they didn't want to be beholden to the return time on the ticket....the fact that they can choose the time doesn't change that they don't want to be beholden to a return time.

Yep. Most people I know don't plan their vacations, to anywhere, six months in advance, let alone where they're gonna eat each day. The very idea holds zero appeal to them and not only that is a major turn off, not in any way a "perk."

The very few people I've talked to regarding Disney World and FastPass+, none of them die-hard Disney geeks, have no idea what FastPass+ is (one family even asked me after they got an email, knowing we'd been on multiple trips to the World), and when I give them the rough outline mock it mercilessly. Who wants to say when they'll be riding a ride a week, a month or even a few days in advance?

Day of, gets a few more questions. More folks see the appointment appeal of that, but only when you're talking mega-headliners that that even the most clueless Disney guests KNOW will equal a long line. But if everyone schedules day of, or "on the fly," a FastPass+ benefit to Disney--being able to manage park staffing based on FP+--vanishes.

Other than people on the Dis, I think the number that consider the ability to schedule your rides 60-days, or even 30-days, out a boon is incredibly minuscule. They're not thinking about tiers or per-day limits or any of that other stuff we fans are gnashing our teeth over. They just think scheduling their vacation to the minute sounds like a major bummer. ... And they're not wrong.

And, no, before you ask, I have no statistics or surveys to back up my "minuscule" assertion, only anecdotal evidence and common sense. But if that gut check is correct, it means FastPass+ fails out of the gate at one of its main objectives: a marketing tool that will help increase attendance. If very few people want the feature, and others actually see it as a burden, not a perk, they can't sell it.

 

[JimmyV]

It's RIGHT THERE. You say yourself you had to wait longer because other ppl were now using FP+ for say, POTC. Well, who are these ppl mysteriously going ahead of you? Why are you standing in line? Obviously the ride is still running -- but your line is moving slower... and you don't have a FP, and tons of other ppl are still walking past you... wow they never seem to end... still! It's like Disney is giving out fastpasses to everyone these days! Oh wait -- they are.

But how does this establish your point that 80% of the people are now getting ahead of me because they are now using Fast Passes when they didn't use them before? If it is only 15% of the people who didn't previously use FP and now use it, my line is still longer. In fact, even if it is just one person, my line is longer. So how do we make the leap to 80%?

See, it doesn't matter what you've seen. You are just a person. You are DEFINITELY getting on fewer rides. This is a given. The guy next to you also complaining, is also DEFINITELY getting on fewer rides. Everyone supporting you is probly so. But that's it. 100 people out here posting over and over.

The tens of thousands of people in the kiosk lines were NOT Dis Board members. They did not total 100 people. They were not happy. The hundreds of people ahead of me who got into a line that they thought was going to be a 30 minute wait and turned out to be a 75 minute wait were not Dis Board members. And they were not happy. This notion that dissent begins and ends here is absurd and you are way too intelligent to be fooled into thinking that. Who posted all the negative comments on the Facebook page that have now been taken down? Not us.

These are technicalities. You install a new system, it's gonna have problems. They will get ironed out. The existence of "growing pains" do not make the case to "not attempt to grow". They will work out the sensors, the site, etc.

So now we've gone from a system that some found perfect, to one that some found to be really good to one that is problematic. Well, that's a start.

 

[Davey Jones II]

You seriously think the only people who have issues with FP+ are people on the DIS?

Every person I have talked to - most of them not huge Disney fans, much less people you'd find on a board like this - every single one of them has disliked the idea of prebooking attractions. Not even talking about limits or tiers or what have you. Every single one of them has said something along the lines of "why in the world would I want to plan my day down to what ride I'm riding at what time before I get there?" Even understanding that FP+ would get them into 3 rides with shorter lines, even if they booked the day-of, none of these people have liked the idea.

Is it really so incredibly "out there" to think that many people have no desire to be so incredibly scheduled on vacation? These are the same people who didn't use FP- because they didn't want to be beholden to the return time on the ticket....the fact that they can choose the time doesn't change that they don't want to be beholden to a return time.

Yeah, not everyone complains, whether on message boards or elsewhere. The 80/20 rule also applies there too: 20% of clients account for 80% of the complaints. So among the 80%, there have to be people who don't like what you're doing, but just vote with their feet and stop patronizing your establishment -- or don't come as often as before.

Granted, maybe a lot of first timers like or don't mind FP+. But will it make them more likely to shell out big bucks for a return visit? Now THAT's "out there".

 

[*disgal*]

Don't forget your limited edition St Patrick's Day holiday ears!!

YOU ARE DA BOMB!!

 

[MrInfinity]

Jimmy, you seem to like to hinge on numbers when you can say "the number you chose is arbitrary so the point is wrong". Not true. Substitute "most" for 80% below and you should be ok.

But how does this establish your point that 80% of the people are now getting ahead of me because they are now using Fast Passes when they didn't use them before? If it is only 15% of the people who didn't previously use FP and now use it, my line is still longer. In fact, even if it is just one person, my line is longer. So how do we make the leap to 80%?

The actual % is irrelevant. Point is, you are standing in line. You did not used to. You used to ride a lot more, a lot faster. Now you are standing in lines that you cannot avoid, while person after person is waived ahead of you cuz they have Fast Passes that you used to get instead.

The tens of thousands of people in the kiosk lines were NOT Dis Board members.

I already agree, the Kiosk ppl need a re-do, and I think that will come. Disney is clearly rolling out in phases. Do you not see they attended to Deluxe guests first, then Mods and Values, then APs, and now, last, day-passers? Do you see the progression of money spent there and why this makes sense?

Yes Disney will fix the Kiosk issue. I project day-passers will get the option to obtain MBs and pick FP's day-of from home. Kiosk problem solved.