UPDATE p. 37. I finally canceled. Too much uncertainty for us.

OP, I think if canceling, for whatever reason, is what you needed to do, then I think its your decision.

I am on the fence with FP+. Honestly in the 9 trips we have made we probably used fp a handful of times. Heck, we probably pulled more than we actually used. So, I really don't understand the idea that a great vacation can' be had without fp. But, once you add realitiy..we typically go at a less crowded time of year, when my kids were teens preferred to just go in the single riders line instead of waiting for a fp window..we just tour differently than some. I get that, which puts me in a position to understand those who pull fp and utilize it to its advantage because it works for them to do so.

In a couple weeks we will be testing out the new fp+. Am I nervous? Yes, simply because we will have our grandchildren with us and I can see the advantage of have fp to avoid waits in line and the ability to do some great rides. However, I also know what they don't know they can't miss. So, if they get to ride some things, wonderful. If not, they probably won't realize that they didn't!

But, like all 'new' things that get rolled out, it works for some and not so much for others. We haven't seen all the different things that will happen. I have no doubt that once the entire package is rolled out, it will work a little better than some think, a little worse for others. And change is always difficult. Its like the difficulties some are speaking about with MB and not having access to the parks, or dining plan/purchasing not working. I can assure everyone here that this occurred with KTTW cards too. In 2006, our KTTW cards for our party were a complete disaster. We didn't know from day to day who would get in a park, who would not be able to use their dining credits. I spent so much time at the lobby getting things straightened out. And every fix seemed to make it worse. We left with several dining credits not able to be used and several hours NOT doing the parks. I point that out only to say, WDW computer systems are terrible and the volume of guests and information is so large, I can't imagine. But, in the some of the problems people are reporting are not new for WDW. Just new for MB.

I don't honestly understand how people say that I should have no issues because I should be glad I can afford a vacation. I, of course, am glad of that. However, no apology for wanting to use my dollars that I work very very very hard for. Yes, I am certain there are some who spend years saving for a trip that I get to take every year if I wish. But, it comes back to they have no idea what they are missing if they can't do everything by using FP.
I can't fault anyone who feels, at this time with what information they have, would better be suited to use their hard earned dollars elsewhere. Lets face it, WDW vacations are pricey. People who will have the most issue with fp+ are those returning year after year and understand how the system can be utilized to their touring style. I don't think being smart about what works for you and your family, i.e. spending your hard earned money at another vacation spot due to changes at WDW that don't work, calls out being ungrateful for opportunities like vacations.

Kelly
 
I don't understand all the criticisms of folks feeling "too entitled" about getting FPs. It isn't about feeling entitled-- it's just about the maximum threshold some people have for enjoying time spent in lines versus doing what they want to be doing. If you're one of those people who can just soak up magic while in line with your small children for an hour, well, first, I want some of whatever you are drinking, and second, more power to you. If your dream disney vacation includes a majority of your time spent just enjoying being in the parks, or sitting by the resort pool, that's awesome. I am not that type of person. I won't wait more than 30 minutes for anything on vacation. I hate waiting. I hate lines. I hate hearing kids (my own, or anyone elses) whine about waiting. It just totally makes me nuts. If I want to lounge around all day, I'll take the kids to a beach. At Disney, I like (and more importantly, my KIDS like) to actually DO things. So if I can't tour at Disney in a way that makes it so I can do the attractions and rides that I want to do without having 30 minute lines everywhere I look, I won't do it. And I'll be bummed about that, because I love WDW, but I love a fun vacation more, and waiting in lines all day is just no fun for me. I don't feel entitled to have 10 FPs a day-- I feel entitled to have a enjoyable vacation. And if the new Disney structure makes my trips less enjoyable by creating longer lines and fewer opportunities to schedule around long wait times, they will lose me. It just is what it is. I'm under no illusion that they will miss me, or that they owe me anything except for entry into their parks and a bed to sleep in.

Good post, totally agree.

I will not go in a line that has more than a 20minute wait. I'm paying to go on rides, not to shop and go to a restaurant, I can do that lots of places without having to pay for the privilege.

I haven't had a chance to try out FP+ yet, if it saves me time compared to what we do now, great, but if it doesn't then time to reevaluate if the price of admission is worth it.

What I really wish is that Disney had of spent that billion plus on more rides, seems that would have solved a lot of their customer's concerns. Face it, the problem is that there are not enough rides that people want to do for the number of people now going to the parks.

Our next trip isn't till aug-sept 2014 when we'll hit both WDW and Universal (daughter needs to see the new Harry Potter). It will be interesting to see how the two different theme parks compare. I would imagine though the comparison could have a big effect on future vacations.
 
I fully researched FP before going on our vacation- 7 days of DW with a hopper. Having a 2 and 4 year old we def. could have utilized FP but we chose not to. Why- well- with two young kids we knew we were kind of on their schedule anyways so we made the trip more about the experience and the overall feel of DW and less about riding as many rides as possible.

I have taken trips in the past that has been focused on the rides and I can tell you our last trip with the kids was the best by far.

All I am saying is maybe we should focus less on the FP system and more on just the Disney experience. I think people have gotten much too accustomed to the FP and strategically finding ways to ride as many rides as possible and this has lead to the feeling of entitlement of the FP for some which has lead to disappointment with the new system.

I don't understand why some people think that the way they do Disney is the only right way to do Disney. The "ride people" aren't arguing that you're wasting your money going to Disney for the atmosphere and that you should get off your park bench, miss a show now and then, and make more use of FP in whatever incarnation in order to fully experience the Disney parks. Why would the "atmosphere" people think they're entitled to tell "ride people" that we're doing it wrong because to us the rides are an important part of a theme park vacation? :confused3

I'm so sad that that is true, but it's still an awesome mental image. :)

We're inching closer to trying Universal I think. My husband is die-hard WDW and he's to the point where he only wants to go once a year, at most, and is talking about taking a 2 or 3 year break again. If we do go stay at Universal I would imagine it'll be after the Harry Potter expansion opens, which really isn't that far away at the pace Universal is working. And yes, the butterbeer. I want some more of that, esp the frozen one. :)

We're actually thinking about taking the teen, now that he's old enough to really appreciate more things, on an Adventures by Disney trip instead of WDW. From what I have read Disney's CMs do a very nice job of guiding those trips, and it's all planned for you save maybe a few meals where you're on your own (in towns with plenty of options).

Disney World is just flat out overcrowded often anymore, unless you are willing to pull your kids of of school (and we're not). And there's not much new to see. And the ADR treadmill, which is now also a FP+ treadmill. The spontenaiety is gone from our relationship, Disney! :upsidedow

We're in the same place. We are ride people, but I live by the clock every day and don't want to do so on vacation. We're leaning Universal too, as soon as the HP expansion opens. We've never been before - because we are ride people and wanted to wait until our kids can ride with us - but the timing now is good. We're planning a break from Disney until the Avatar and/or Star Wars projects are reality, but the kids are really into the idea of Universal. We'll probably also do DLR as part of a larger west-coast trip, time permitting.

My AP expires in March. I have one for-sure trip and one maybe trip between now and then, but after that we're thinking 4-5 years before we go back to WDW.

What I really wish is that Disney had of spent that billion plus on more rides, seems that would have solved a lot of their customer's concerns. Face it, the problem is that there are not enough rides that people want to do for the number of people now going to the parks.

:thumbsup2 Instead of trying to figure out how to steer more people towards Stitch's Great Escape and Journey into Imagination via crowd management, they should be thinking about how to make those rides into experiences people will want to have. And in those parks that have only one or two headliners that most people are interested in, they need to be adding capacity to meet guest demand, not rationing the existing capacity so that guests are able to see and do less in each park day.
 
In my opinion, Disney somehow got the idea that they could control where you go in the parks, when you're going to go there and why they want you to go there. They're giving you a little leeway, you get to pick the times. But they'll be guiding your through your vacation using their criteria. And I know that the ride line situation is less than ideal so something had to be done. I just don't think that this was it.
 

This idea that people don't use fastpass or even know how to use it seems odd to me. I do know for more than 1/3 of the year (off peak) people can get away without, but a lot if people know how to use it.

My calculation is at least half. This can easily be determined by how fast TSMM is wiped out every single day of the year. 10,000 people a day hit that ride and wipe out fastpasses by noon. That is over 3,650,000 people a year. That doesn't include the thousands a day who know how to use it, but just don't bother to mess with it.

I would guess wdw has about 9,000,000 unique customers a year. Way more than half know the fastpass system.

With Disney training more people to use Fastpass+ the pure number of users is going to skyrocket. Capacity remains the same. Demand skyrockets. Fastpass value soars.

When marketing starts, there will be a lot less people skipping fastpasses.

Btw - for all of those people traveling in January, may and September. I don't think it will ever matter. Three scheduled fastpasses a day along with short standby. It will be super cool with lots of same day flexibility.

I assume your math is correct but I think you have to factor in human nature/behavior. That's a tall task even with the ability to analyze data of multicultural demographic over an ever changing schedule based on regional factors - impossible without.

Just some of the things that come to mind:

Due to Park Hopper (and other factors) some consider DHS a 1/2 day park. Advance FP+ undercuts the advantage of PH (I don't know to what degree - do most people use it just to see late shows/displays/parades?)

FP+ will remove from the RD crowd most DHS guests who never wanted to be there in the first place and now have an advance FP in hand. It will also remove many who came early just to hit the headliners before heading over to another park via PH.

Add in the factor that if FP+ is successful at managing capacity and "throughput" this will lead to shorter standby times. Shorter standby times which may then lead to notion within the group that didn't want to plan anyway that FP+ isn't all that necessary. This will continue to balance itself out.

I have said that I think the number of FPs will go down, not up, do to the dynamic of human nature and that same day FPs will be available. I can accept the argument that cpacity is an issue Disney is trying to address. If I accept this, I would assume that FP+ is designed to have PH wither on the vine, so to speak. From a public relations standpoint, this would be more preferable than simply eliminating it. Or, Disney may simply increase the price - I just don't know who is using it.
 
Are they really beginning to tier attractions at DHS now, as well as at Epcot? :scared: THAT is the sort of uncertainty I was referencing. It's just not for me. Plenty of others will be fine with it.
 
/
My AP expires in March. I have one for-sure trip and one maybe trip between now and then, but after that we're thinking 4-5 years before we go back to WDW.

Yup ours expire in May. We have a holiday trip coming up next month. After that, we're discussing going once more in the spring, just to get a little more value out of the APs.

We do have a campsite booked at the Fort for NYE '15, we really do enjoy the atmosphere at WDW for New Year's. It's actually not all that easy to find great things to do with kids for NYE, most things are geared for adults, so WDW is good for that. And FL camping in the winter is so nice and Disney keeps the Fort so clean. If we keep that reservation we'll just buy a few days' park pass and spend the other half the week over at Universal since the HP addition will be open.

But we won't renew our annual passes in May. We're tentatively planning to go to Europe in '15/'16 instead of spending the money at WDW.
 
Some good points, but you don't consider the counter reactions to them.


I assume your math is correct but I think you have to factor in human nature/behavior. That's a tall task even with the ability to analyze data of multicultural demographic over an ever changing schedule based on regional factors - impossible without.

Due to Park Hopper (and other factors) some consider DHS a 1/2 day park. Advance FP+ undercuts the advantage of PH (I don't know to what degree - do most people use it just to see late shows/displays/parades?)

True that its hard to calculate all the demographic and geographic shifts taking place, BUT, we can do a lot with the raw numbers we have and with averages, and historical crowd calendars.

PH, not sure, we often use it for exactly that reason, particularly so we can book our ADRs at 180 days, then go to whatever park we want ... PH usage might increase if this is true for people, and they lock into ADRs at 180, but then can't match up their parks FP+ with those ADRs and have the choice of giving up ADRs, or springing for PH.

FP+ will remove from the RD crowd most DHS guests who never wanted to be there in the first place and now have an advance FP in hand. It will also remove many who came early just to hit the headliners before heading over to another park via PH.


This is true, BUT, FP+ is also going to push MORE people into RD. People who book their FP+s and the only time available, will have FP+ times booked first thing in the morning. People have already reported that FP return times are advancing far faster than previously, return times of Mid afternoon by 9:30 am, and late evening by 10am.


Add in the factor that if FP+ is successful at managing capacity and "throughput" this will lead to shorter standby times. Shorter standby times which may then lead to notion within the group that didn't want to plan anyway that FP+ isn't all that necessary. This will continue to balance itself out.

This is a rather optimistic view. The reality, and there is some truth to what you post, is that this will have an effect of equilibrium between park attendance. Meaning people will be shifted from their MK day to do a AK day, etc etc ... whats likely to happen is that wait times between parks and between rides, will balance out more. So instead of a 90 min wait for Space Mountain and a 15 Minute wait for Everest, you would see a 40 or 45 minute wait for both. But for many, that's still not acceptable. This doesn't address the key issue, lack of capacity.


I have said that I think the number of FPs will go down, not up, do to the dynamic of human nature and that same day FPs will be available. I can accept the argument that cpacity is an issue Disney is trying to address. If I accept this, I would assume that FP+ is designed to have PH wither on the vine, so to speak. From a public relations standpoint, this would be more preferable than simply eliminating it. Or, Disney may simply increase the price - I just don't know who is using it.

You might be right about PH withering on the vine. But I am not so sure about the number of FPs being used. People here have repeatedly pointed to the fact that many people don't know about or know how to use FP. I am not sure how accurate this is, BUT, I suppose its possible, and have had people who have been to WDW ask me what fastpasses are. FP+ has the booking of FP built right into your booking of your vacation. Disney is and will continue even more so to PUSH people to book their FP+s. They will even auto Pick them for you. It is quite possible that FP usage will increase, not decrease.
 
Some good points, but you don't consider the counter reactions to them.

True that its hard to calculate all the demographic and geographic shifts taking place, BUT, we can do a lot with the raw numbers we have and with averages, and historical crowd calendars.

PH, not sure, we often use it for exactly that reason, particularly so we can book our ADRs at 180 days, then go to whatever park we want ... PH usage might increase if this is true for people, and they lock into ADRs at 180, but then can't match up their parks FP+ with those ADRs and have the choice of giving up ADRs, or springing for PH.

This is true, BUT, FP+ is also going to push MORE people into RD. People who book their FP+s and the only time available, will have FP+ times booked first thing in the morning. People have already reported that FP return times are advancing far faster than previously, return times of Mid afternoon by 9:30 am, and late evening by 10am.

This is a rather optimistic view. The reality, and there is some truth to what you post, is that this will have an effect of equilibrium between park attendance. Meaning people will be shifted from their MK day to do a AK day, etc etc ... whats likely to happen is that wait times between parks and between rides, will balance out more. So instead of a 90 min wait for Space Mountain and a 15 Minute wait for Everest, you would see a 40 or 45 minute wait for both. But for many, that's still not acceptable. This doesn't address the key issue, lack of capacity.

You might be right about PH withering on the vine. But I am not so sure about the number of FPs being used. People here have repeatedly pointed to the fact that many people don't know about or know how to use FP. I am not sure how accurate this is, BUT, I suppose its possible, and have had people who have been to WDW ask me what fastpasses are. FP+ has the booking of FP built right into your booking of your vacation. Disney is and will continue even more so to PUSH people to book their FP+s. They will even auto Pick them for you. It is quite possible that FP usage will increase, not decrease.

Fantastic points. I think a lot more people know about FP, too. I think that if Disney wants to use it to spread out the wealth, they will promote it during booking. But as long as it isn't mandatory at time of booking, I think that a significant number of people will wait, with a portion of that group not booking at all.

I think most people move about the park in some logical (to them) fashion or pattern. Example: Go to Tomorrow Land, grab FP for Space Mountain, ride Buzz and Astro and Laff Factory while waiting for FP return.

Experienced guests are more inclined to develop a sense of where things are in relation to where other things are - rides, shows, dining - and may venture back and forth between adjacent "lands." A significant number of guests don't and it will be hard to convince them to coordinate 3 FPs in what would be, to their mind, a logical fashion.

I like the ADR comparison that you and others have pointed out. I probably give it less weight because dining involves certain timeframes, even if vaguely held.

I love this discussion. Would love to just see the list of considerations Disney had to address in making this decision.
 
What do you mean by this?

I thought that was pretty obvious... There is not enough headliner capacity to meet current guest demand, particularly at Studios and Epcot, which results in very quick FP "sellouts" and extremely long standby waits. Additional ride capacity would address that problem in a way that would satisfy guests; limiting access to headliners and attempting to drive traffic towards less popular/enjoyable attractions attempts to address the same problem at the expense of guest experience.
 
I thought that was pretty obvious... There is not enough headliner capacity to meet current guest demand, particularly at Studios and Epcot, which results in very quick FP "sellouts" and extremely long standby waits. Additional ride capacity would address that problem in a way that would satisfy guests; limiting access to headliners and attempting to drive traffic towards less popular/enjoyable attractions attempts to address the same problem at the expense of guest experience.

But lines at Disney are shorter than any other amusement park, including headliners. At least that's been my experience.
 
I can't believe all of the FP drama. It's getting a little pathetic. Does anybody here seriously believe that people are cancelling their entire vacations just because of uncertainty surrounding FP+ testing? I don't believe it for a minute. The OP's first few sentences were all I needed to come to this conclusion. There are obviously some other things going on in the OP's life that justify cancelling their trip.

It would seem that some people are using FP+ and MB's as an excuse for cancelling, rather than a reason. There is a difference. I have not bothered to read this entire thread, but I'm sure there have been the customary "I'm sorry. You have to do what's best for your family", and "Great, less crowds for my trip during the same week" replies.

You absolutely must do what's best for you and your family. And if that means cancelling a WDW trip, then sobeit. But please. For the love of Mickey. Don't make Disney your excuse. Take a look at what's important (it's not Fastpass) and then accept the real reason (or reasons) why you had to cancel your trip.

Denial ain't just a river on The Jungle Cruise.
 
I can't believe all of the FP drama. It's getting a little pathetic. Does anybody here seriously believe that people are cancelling their entire vacations just because of uncertainty surrounding FP+ testing? I don't believe it for a minute. The OP's first few sentences were all I needed to come to this conclusion. There are obviously some other things going on in the OP's life that justify cancelling their trip.

It would seem that some people are using FP+ and MB's as an excuse for cancelling, rather than a reason. There is a difference. I have not bothered to read this entire thread, but I'm sure there have been the customary "I'm sorry. You have to do what's best for your family", and "Great, less crowds for my trip during the same week" replies.

You absolutely must do what's best for you and your family. And if that means cancelling a WDW trip, then sobeit. But please. For the love of Mickey. Don't make Disney your excuse. Take a look at what's important (it's not Fastpass) and then accept the real reason (or reasons) why you had to cancel your trip.

Denial ain't just a river on The Jungle Cruise.

Yeah. Because it would just be nuts to feel like you should get decent ride access for a $100 admission price. You should just write a big check and take whatever they decide to give you.
 
I can't believe all of the FP drama. It's getting a little pathetic. Does anybody here seriously believe that people are cancelling their entire vacations just because of uncertainty surrounding FP+ testing? I don't believe it for a minute. The OP's first few sentences were all I needed to come to this conclusion. There are obviously some other things going on in the OP's life that justify cancelling their trip.

It would seem that some people are using FP+ and MB's as an excuse for cancelling, rather than a reason. There is a difference. I have not bothered to read this entire thread, but I'm sure there have been the customary "I'm sorry. You have to do what's best for your family", and "Great, less crowds for my trip during the same week" replies.

You absolutely must do what's best for you and your family. And if that means cancelling a WDW trip, then sobeit. But please. For the love of Mickey. Don't make Disney your excuse. Take a look at what's important (it's not Fastpass) and then accept the real reason (or reasons) why you had to cancel your trip.

Denial ain't just a river on The Jungle Cruise.

Really? After the countless threads and posts about FP+ THIS is the post you came up with? NM, where's the face palm?
 
Really? After the countless threads and posts about FP+ THIS is the post you came up with? NM, where's the face palm?

You forgot to add repetitive and unnecessary after countless (which I would have replaced with "endless").

Hey people. Flame all you want. It confirms my point. At least I brought a different perspective to the discussion.
 
I can't believe all of the FP drama. It's getting a little pathetic. Does anybody here seriously believe that people are cancelling their entire vacations just because of uncertainty surrounding FP+ testing? I don't believe it for a minute. The OP's first few sentences were all I needed to come to this conclusion. There are obviously some other things going on in the OP's life that justify cancelling their trip.

It would seem that some people are using FP+ and MB's as an excuse for cancelling, rather than a reason. There is a difference. I have not bothered to read this entire thread, but I'm sure there have been the customary "I'm sorry. You have to do what's best for your family", and "Great, less crowds for my trip during the same week" replies.

You absolutely must do what's best for you and your family. And if that means cancelling a WDW trip, then sobeit. But please. For the love of Mickey. Don't make Disney your excuse. Take a look at what's important (it's not Fastpass) and then accept the real reason (or reasons) why you had to cancel your trip.

Denial ain't just a river on The Jungle Cruise.

I've said it before, but I didn't pay admission to wait 3+ hours in lines over the course of the day.

I wouldn't get in a line over 20 minutes long if they were handing out money at the end of it. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much. :)

For a lot of people, new limitations on FPs will significantly affect their WDW trips negatively. Could we have a good trip without FPs? Maybe, but it would be very different than our previous successful trips. Some people aren't willing to risk that right now. Nothing wrong with making that decision. Certainly sounds like a tangible reason to me. No over-reaction here.
 














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