Unresponsive NW plane - UPDATE: They were on their laptops (post #39, pg 3)

Deb in IA

Knows that KIDS are better
Joined
Aug 18, 1999
Messages
12,607
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/16s-prepared-shoot-wayward-plane/story?id=8900171

Armed F-16s 'Prepared' to Shoot Down Errant Northwest Flight
Air Traffic Controllers Feared Non-responsive Plane Had Been Hijacked
By BRIAN ROSS and JUSTIN GRANT
Oct. 23, 2009

Armed F-16s from the Wisconsin Air National Guard were on the runway and could have shot down the errant Northwest flight if the order had come, officials said today.

"As a force of last resort, NORAD is always prepared to do whatever is necessary," NORAD spokesperson Mike Kucharek told ABCNews.com.

Air traffic controllers feared Northwest Flight 188, from San Diego to Minneapolis, might have been hijacked after its pilots failed to respond to radio transmissions for more than an hour. NORAD ordered at least two planes scrambled at the guard facility in Madison, Wisconsin.

The NORAD spokesman said the F-16s, normally armed with 500 rounds of air cannon bullets and six air-to-air missiles, were on the runway when the alert was canceled once the pilots finally made contact with FAA controllers.

Air traffic controllers reported the pilots initially failed to respond to commands as it passed from the air space controlled by the FAA Denver Center into the area controlled by the Minneapolis Center.

The concern grew as the pilots ignored a command from the Minneapolis approach controllers to begin a descent for landing.

The National Counterterrorism Center in Washington was notified, and authorities began to scrutinize the passenger list, according to Pierre Thomas and Jason Ryan of ABC News.

Once contact was re-established, after an hour and 18 minutes of silence, the controllers ordered the pilots to carry out a series of zigzag maneuvers in order to prove "the pilots had command and control of the craft," according to people briefed on the incident.

For some controllers, the incident was an eerie and painful reminder of the controller at the Cleveland Center who unsuccessfully attempted to contact United Airlines Flight 93 on September 11, 2001.

"United 93, United 93," the controllers called out repeatedly until another aircraft reported seeking smoke on the ground. The plane crashed in a Pennsylvania field as passengers attempted to storm the cockpit.


In the case this week of Northwest 188, controllers tried used a variety of FAA frequencies, the Northwest private frequency and texting services to contact the plane as it sailed through the air at 37,000 feet.

The pilots finally responded when they were contacted by the Denver controllers—-an indication they had not changed frequencies on their radios when they passed into the Minneapolis air space.

According to people briefed on the incident, the pilots had to be asked three separate times if they were okay and had control of the plane.

The pilots said they had a "cockpit distraction" and were having a "heated discussion" about a "company issue," according to a person briefed on the conversation with the controllers.

The incident prompted widespread speculation that the pilots had fallen asleep although controllers reported "no indication" that the pilots were "groggy" once they began to respond to the radio calls.
 
I'm not sure this qualifies as a near-disaster...sure they could've ordered the plane shot down, but I imagine that the pilots would've seen the jets escorting/tailing them and been snapped out of their discussion (if that' what really was happening).

The SCARY part of this is that these pilots were either ASLEEP or so negligently engrossed in their heated discussion that they were able to ignore the tower and the aircraft fpr over 100 miles!
 
Yikes.

What the H was going on that those pilots were not in contact for over an hour?!?! I'm sure they'll do a full investigation, and I sincerely hope it was some sort of error with the system that they couldn't communicate, and not that the pilots were doing something they shouldn't.
 
Those pilots have some 'splainin' to do. :scared1:
 

I'm not sure this qualifies as a near-disaster...sure they could've ordered the plane shot down, but I imagine that the pilots would've seen the jets escorting/tailing them and been snapped out of their discussion (if that' what really was happening).

The SCARY part of this is that these pilots were either ASLEEP or so negligently engrossed in their heated discussion that they were able to ignore the tower and the aircraft fpr over 100 miles!

Exactly. A move to shoot it down wouldn't happen unless the plane made a hostile move.
 
Wow. I hope they do a big investigation, as I'm curious as to what was so engrossing to cause this kind of debocle.
 
I would assume that the cockpit voice recorder would have recorded a conversation or, more likely....snoring.
 
well, that explains one thing!

the F-16s from the 174th took off that night - way too low over our neighborhood and hit their after burners!!! The other weird thing is that a passenger jet had just gone over right before the jets. Totally freaked me out. DH was walking the dog and said it brought out quite a few neighbors. We wonderedif there was something wrong with that passenger jet and watched the local news to see if there was any word. We are used to the jets, but not like this.

some reports are saying they scrambled the jets, but none ever took off. I can tell you that ours did!!!

one thing I read about the voice recording on the box: it only records so many minutes and then records over that..too much time had gone by for the important time frame to be caught and they are hoping that in the last recording they may have referred back to what was going on.

:wizard:
 
I woke up to this story this morning and, to tell you the truth, it didn't surprise me. Neither did the plane crashes earlier this year resulting from inexperienced pilots, one of whom had to fly across country to get to work because there were no jobs where she lived.

As the airline industry cuts costs and salaries, I think we're going to see competent pilots go the way that all of our other talented professionals went and what we'll wind up with is the kid from Burger King with a six month simulator certficiate flying the "bus".

It'll take many more of these kinds of incidents, not to mention some more crashes and lives lost, before the airline industry risk management departments will decide that paying a decent salary is less expensive than fighting lawsuits.

Still on the Job, but at Half the Pay
By LOUIS UCHITELLE
Published: October 13, 2009

MECHANICSVILLE, Va. — The dark blue captain’s hat, with its golden oak-leaf clusters, sits atop a bookcase in Bryan Lawlor’s home, out of reach of the children. The uniform their father wears still displays the four stripes of a commercial airline captain, but the hat stays home. The rules forbid that extra display of authority, now that Mr. Lawlor has been downgraded to first officer.

He is now in the co-pilot’s seat in the 50-seat commuter jets he flies, not for any failure in skill. He wears his captain’s stripes, he explains, to make that point. But with air travel down, his employer cut costs by downgrading 130 captains, those with the lowest seniority, to first officers, automatically cutting the wage of each by roughly 50 percent — to $34,000 in Mr. Lawlor’s case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/business/economy/14income.html?_r=1&hp
 
The cockpit voice recorder only keeps the last 30 minutes recorded everything before that is erased.

I wonder if the flight attendants tried to communicate with the pilot/co-pilot. It seems that one of them would have knocked on the door within the 78 minutes of radio silence...

I think someone on-board, maybe some passengers or particularly the cabin attendants, would have noticed that the plane was already supposed to be on the ground while they were all still up in the air....it *had* to have been late for arrival.

Those two people in that cockpit will not be able to hold on to the lie that they are trying to perpetrate. One of them will crack.

agnes!
 
I wonder if the flight attendants tried to communicate with the pilot/co-pilot. It seems that one of them would have knocked on the door within the 78 minutes of radio silence...
As a flight attendant myself, I can say that I would have been wondering. Honestly, though, sometimes we are in holding patterns, or even WORSE, sometimes there are landing gear issues, and the pilots are busy and just don't have time to let us know why we aren't there yet. It's not at all uncommon to be late, and not hear why for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, or until you land and that door gets opened.

Also, I probably would NOT have called up there to ask "What is going on!" Because, if it was a serious mechanical issue, I would be stepping on some major toes, and I would be interfering with what they were doing. We really aren't supposed to communicate with them unless it is an emergency.

I honestly think these two might have been sleeping. I think they woke up early into the 150 mile overshoot, and then started making plans, getting their stories together, and then flew some more, totally silent, until they knew what had happened would be taped over. Then they flew into MSP.
 
What's further interesting is that the pilot's asleep at the wheel story is getting press but the recent Delta jet landing on a taxiway at Atlanta instead of the runway is largely being ignored. That is even worse! :scared1:
 
What's further interesting is that the pilot's asleep at the wheel story is getting press but the recent Delta jet landing on a taxiway at Atlanta instead of the runway is largely being ignored. That is even worse! :scared1:

:scared1: :scared1:

you have to be TRULY ignorant for that to happen. That's not just a "whoops" scenario. There are many, MANY markings signifying a runway v. taxiway. Holy Mother....
 
What's further interesting is that the pilot's asleep at the wheel story is getting press but the recent Delta jet landing on a taxiway at Atlanta instead of the runway is largely being ignored. That is even worse! :scared1:

I think the issue with the NW plane is that they were out of contact for over an hour with ground control and the FAA having NO IDEA what happened to the plane.

So while the Delta flight--did a very much not a good thing, it still needs to be investigated as to why that happened and one thing is for certain. The plane wasn't missing for an hour.

When hijackings are of great concern, the disappearance of a plane via radio contact due to pilot error--is a big deal.
 
When hijackings are of great concern, the disappearance of a plane via radio contact due to pilot error--is a big deal.
Apparently it happens all the time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091024/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_airport_overflown

Cole would not discuss why it took so long for the pilots to respond to radio calls, "but I can tell you that airplanes lose contact with the ground people all the time. It happens. Sometimes they get together right away; sometimes it takes awhile before one or the other notices that they are not in contact."
 
As a flight attendant myself, I can say that I would have been wondering. Honestly, though, sometimes we are in holding patterns, or even WORSE, sometimes there are landing gear issues, and the pilots are busy and just don't have time to let us know why we aren't there yet. It's not at all uncommon to be late, and not hear why for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, or until you land and that door gets opened.

Also, I probably would NOT have called up there to ask "What is going on!" Because, if it was a serious mechanical issue, I would be stepping on some major toes, and I would be interfering with what they were doing. We really aren't supposed to communicate with them unless it is an emergency.

I honestly think these two might have been sleeping. I think they woke up early into the 150 mile overshoot, and then started making plans, getting their stories together, and then flew some more, totally silent, until they knew what had happened would be taped over. Then they flew into MSP.

That is exactly what I think happened, too.

I'd also like to know why -with the technology we have now - a voice recorder only records for 30 minutes before taping over again. Geesh, I can get four hours of video on a tiny card that costs $25.
 
Does the CVR only record 30 seconds and then reset and tape OVER what was already recorded, or does it record 30 minutes, pause 30 minutes, record 30 minutes, pause 30 minutes and so on?

Seems stupid to erase and record constantly...apparantly a whole lot can happen in a multi-hour long flight. Might be nice to have more than one single half hour of info.
 
That is exactly what I think happened, too.

I'd also like to know why -with the technology we have now - a voice recorder only records for 30 minutes before taping over again. Geesh, I can get four hours of video on a tiny card that costs $25.

It was an older box, they probably don't replace them that often. Usually if there's a crash, the last 30 minutes is the most important.

Could there have been some kind of mechanical problem, like low oxygen in the cockpit that caused them to nod off? It's strange that both would nod off in the middle of the day for over an hour.
 
well, that explains one thing!

the F-16s from the 174th took off that night - way too low over our neighborhood and hit their after burners!!! The other weird thing is that a passenger jet had just gone over right before the jets. Totally freaked me out. DH was walking the dog and said it brought out quite a few neighbors. We wonderedif there was something wrong with that passenger jet and watched the local news to see if there was any word. We are used to the jets, but not like this.

some reports are saying they scrambled the jets, but none ever took off. I can tell you that ours did!!!



:wizard:

The jets that were on standby for this incident were out of Madison, WI and Duluth, MN (I believe). They wouldn't have come from upstate NY.

The plane flew into Northwestern WI before turning around and landing.
 












Save Up to 30% on Rooms at Walt Disney World!

Save up to 30% on rooms at select Disney Resorts Collection hotels when you stay 5 consecutive nights or longer in late summer and early fall. Plus, enjoy other savings for shorter stays.This offer is valid for stays most nights from August 1 to October 11, 2025.
CLICK HERE













DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest

Back
Top