United Airlines Forces Man off of oversold flight

[bryanb]

Can you imagine what would happen if they had to bump guests out of Disney parks when they get too crowded?

"I'm sorry, we'll need to randomly select four guests to leave the Magic Kingdom. There are four cast members who need to get to work."

 

[bryanb]

so comply or get injured? Is that what we have become as a society? You don't do exactly what we want when we want it or we will beat you into submission.

Exactly! They should've let the market decide how much being bumped was worth. The current FAA rules need to be rewritten... because they way they were implemented on this flight was: "if you don't accept our offer we will physically force you to accept this offer by any means necessary."

I've been a frequent flyer on United for years, and their response to this incident was seriously deficient. This man paid for his seat. The offer of $800 or $1000 wasn't worth it to him for whatever reasons he had. Having patients to see the next day is a good reason why someone can't take the offer, but it doesn't even matter if he had no good reason. They should've moved on to the next people and offered $1,100, $1,200, etc.

 

[twinklebug]

Can you imagine what would happen if they had to bump guests out of Disney parks when they get too crowded?

"I'm sorry, we'll need to randomly select four guests to leave the Magic Kingdom. There are four cast members who need to get to work."

Nothing short of mayhem. There'd be 6 year old kids in strollers, wearing refillable popcorn buckets from the month before on their noggins, jousting with selfie sticks.

 

[Jennasis]

Anyone support the notion of making over-booking flights illegal? LOL

It'll never happen, but one can dream....(and can you imagine how crazy the price of flights would become??)

 

[baildrk]

I knew i would find it somewhere but, alas airlines can do this....

1. You are technically entering into a contract, known basically as a "contract of carriage." Quick interpretation is that you seat that you have paid for is not guaranteed
2. Few consumers exercise their right to get a copy of the lengthy document, much less read it.
3. When airlines have exhausted all other options, they have to start picking which customers they'll bump, and explain their reasoning in writing. Usually it's based on the fare paid (whoever paid the least gets bumped first) but their can also be other factors like single tickets etc..
4. Why can't someone refuse to leave, well its because of that contract and, Any action or behavior that is judged to be "interfering with the flight crew" is against the law which means they can call airport security or airport police to remove said passenger. And since interfering is a vague term, well sitting in your seat refusing to leave falls under that.
5. That's why they have to reimburse at a certain percentage depend on the price of the ticket. and if at all the only suing will be against the security or whoever they were..

Fun facts

 

[amberpi]

I knew i would find it somewhere but, alas airlines can do this....

1. You are technically entering into a contract, known basically as a "contract of carriage." Quick interpretation is that you seat that you have paid for is not guaranteed
2. Few consumers exercise their right to get a copy of the lengthy document, much less read it.
3. When airlines have exhausted all other options, they have to start picking which customers they'll bump, and explain their reasoning in writing. Usually it's based on the fare paid (whoever paid the least gets bumped first) but their can also be other factors like single tickets etc..
4. Why can't someone refuse to leave, well its because of that contract and, Any action or behavior that is judged to be "interfering with the flight crew" is against the law which means they can call airport security or airport police to remove said passenger. And since interfering is a vague term, well sitting in your seat refusing to leave falls under that.
5. That's why they have to reimburse at a certain percentage depend on the price of the ticket. and if at all the only suing will be against the security or whoever they were..

Fun facts

The Rules of Carriage have been discussed here and online at length. The issue, as cited upthread, is that denial of service happens before boarding and the terms are very specific as such. This event after boarding and required deplaning. Different issue.

 

[baildrk]

well sorry i missed a few pages but, as long as the plane hasn't left the terminal i.e that is still considered a "denied boarding" as long as the plane is still at the gate and is permissible under the law

 

[Julie's Haircut]

Anyone support the notion of making over-booking flights illegal? LOL

It'll never happen, but one can dream....(and can you imagine how crazy the price of flights would become??)

Airfares would definitely rise dramatically. Overbooking works out OK in the vast majority of cases. This incident, however disturbing, is not a reason to ban overbooking.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

well sorry i missed a few pages but, as long as the plane hasn't left the terminal i.e that is still considered a "denied boarding" as long as the plane is still at the gate and is permissible under the law

Where does it say that?

The DOT frames their verbage as 'denied boarding' as mentioned several pages ago.

I had brought up though whether for legality reasons if 'denied boarding' is expanded to be beyond the gate and boarding area. Even the DOT says the requests for volunteers would be at the gate/boarding area.

 

[amberpi]

well sorry i missed a few pages but, as long as the plane hasn't left the terminal i.e that is still considered a "denied boarding" as long as the plane is still at the gate and is permissible under the law

The major airlines and DOT are very specific. Trust me, in extreme standby, it can literally be a matter of who is there when the boarding passes are printed and can get the "ding" as to who is left behind. And also, I think the law makers and airlines attorneys wouldn't have been more restrictive in their own verbiage if they in fact meant to be MORE expansive. That's not how regulations/contracts work.

 

[Wendy31]

The Rules of Carriage have been discussed here and online at length. The issue, as cited upthread, is that denial of service happens before boarding and the terms are very specific as such. This event after boarding and required deplaning. Different issue.

Actually, according to this article, it can happen even after boarding:

https://petergreenberg.com/2017/04/11/travel-detective-blog-united-flight-incident/

According to the article, "This 'volunteer' auction can happen at either the gate area before boarding, or it can happen after boarding."

Additionally from the article - "Whether you are on the ground or in the air, if a member of a flight crew orders you to do something (or even merely requests it) and you do not comply or refuse, you are in violation of a federal law. You have disobeyed a direct order of the flight crew, and you can—and will be—removed from the plane on the ground and arrested. Or you will be met at your arrival destination and arrested. Even if you are in the right, the most appropriate course of action is to comply with the request and then have the discussion/argument on the ground and off the plane."

However, the author also agrees that United very badly mishandled the situation.

 

[amberpi]

Actually, according to this article, it can happen even after boarding:

https://petergreenberg.com/2017/04/11/travel-detective-blog-united-flight-incident/

According to the article, "This 'volunteer' auction can happen at either the gate area before boarding, or it can happen after boarding."

Additionally from the article - "Whether you are on the ground or in the air, if a member of a flight crew orders you to do something (or even merely requests it) and you do not comply or refuse, you are in violation of a federal law. You have disobeyed a direct order of the flight crew, and you can—and will be—removed from the plane on the ground and arrested. Or you will be met at your arrival destination and arrested. Even if you are in the right, the most appropriate course of action is to comply with the request and then have the discussion/argument on the ground and off the plane."

However, the author also agrees that United very badly mishandled the situation.

The auction CAN happen after boarding - especially when they want to get people somewhere. I'm suggesting they can't legally deplane them after boarding.

No one is going to suggest that a flight attendant has carte blanche. The authority that they have is based on safety, but maybe you're in the right on that point. I still know I don't want to see or be a part of this, so me and my miles and full freight can easily get on an American or Delta flight if SWA isn't there for me And I try to fly British Air or Virgin all the times I go to Europe, so I should be cool there too.

 

[bcla]

The auction CAN happen after boarding - especially when they want to get people somewhere. I'm suggesting they can't legally deplane them after boarding.

No one is going to suggest that a flight attendant has carte blanche. The authority that they have is based on safety, but maybe you're in the right on that point. I still know I don't want to see or be a part of this, so me and my miles and full freight can easily get on an American or Delta flight is SWA isn't there for me And I try to fly British Air or Virgin all the times I go to Europe, so I should be cool there too.

Theoretically the captain has full authority to put off any passenger for whatever reason is deemed necessary. It's generally unquestioned at the time the order is made. That doesn't mean that a passenger wouldn't have grounds to sue over a believed improper ejection from a plane.

 

[baildrk]

They should have done it before boarding, but they have the right until they plane leaves the terminal to do this. That is about the only thing I will agree with on this topic is that they should have done this before everyone boarded, unfortunately they are within their right do do it that way, you cannot sue because of said carriage contracts

 

[amberpi]

They should have done it before boarding, but they have the right until they plane leaves the terminal to do this. That is about the only thing I will agree with on this topic is that they should have done this before everyone boarded, unfortunately they are within their right do do it that way, you cannot sue because of said carriage contracts

The suing doesn't matter, they're killed in the court of public opinion. I live in an echochamber (except the Dis which is a daily *** for me) and all my serious flying friends are done and trading miles and preferences like mad. Look at the hit their market cap took today. China is outraged especially (different issue) and we/they don't even know what that will mean for them.

 

[mummabear]

Anyone support the notion of making over-booking flights illegal? LOL

It'll never happen, but one can dream....(and can you imagine how crazy the price of flights would become??)

Not sure it really would.
Some simple changes about tickets that are transferable can only be transferred to avalible seats (not bumping others), I don't think it's too much to not expect to be flying on a effectively standby ticket if you haven't purchased that.
Ticket a) non transferable ticket b) transferable on the day subject to avaiblility ticket c) transferable subjects to availiblity ticket d) standby seat not guaranteed

 

[Westcoastwild]

The suing doesn't matter, they're killed in the court of public opinion. I live in an echochamber (except the Dis which is a daily *** for me) and all my serious flying friends are done and trading miles and preferences like mad. Look at the hit their market cap took today. China is outraged especially (different issue) and we/they don't even know what that will mean for them.

Where are you based out of, incidentally? It would be interesting to know if United was the primary go to airline for all of your "serious flying friends". Or just something they used occasionally.

I'm wondering if the Chinese thing will really affect United. What percentage of their flights actually serve China? Most of the flights I see to Asia don't seem to be United anyway- usually the best rates are Asian airlines. But that may just be from SeaTac.

I don't think they're dead in the water yet although if Munoz keeps flapping his lips, they might be soon. But my guess is that if they do a cheap flight promotion, that'll get a lot of the naysayers back. If customer service mattered in the industry, half of the US companies wouldn't exist

 

[amberpi]

Where are you based out of, incidentally? It would be interesting to know if United was the primary go to airline for all of your "serious flying friends". Or just something they used occasionally.

I'm wondering if the Chinese thing will really affect United. What percentage of their flights actually serve China? Most of the flights I see to Asia don't seem to be United anyway- usually the best rates are Asian airlines. But that may just be from SeaTac.

I don't think they're dead in the water yet although if Munoz keeps flapping his lips, they might be soon. But my guess is that if they do a cheap flight promotion, that'll get a lot of the naysayers back. If customer service mattered in the industry, half of the US companies wouldn't exist

I'm Nashville - most of my friends, colleagues are NYC, Chicago, San Fran, DC - several million milers. Most of my "people" won't even fly my beloved SWA! In Nashville, its great! I used to really dislike Delta, but I have to go to ATL a good deal, so its growing on me after a bad experience in my mid 20s; not using United isn't a big deal, but I did like them. They were my favorite way to get to Dulles.

I don't go to Asia often, but this is what I've read from CNN.
China is the second largest aviation market in the world and a key focus for United, which claims it "operates more nonstop US-China flights, and to more cities in China, than any other airline."

I don't think they're dead, but I think this an impactful hit.

 

[Tink_83]

Exactly! They should've let the market decide how much being bumped was worth. The current FAA rules need to be rewritten... because they way they were implemented on this flight was: "if you don't accept our offer we will physically force you to accept this offer by any means necessary."

I've been a frequent flyer on United for years, and their response to this incident was seriously deficient. This man paid for his seat. The offer of $800 or $1000 wasn't worth it to him for whatever reasons he had. Having patients to see the next day is a good reason why someone can't take the offer, but it doesn't even matter if he had no good reason. They should've moved on to the next people and offered $1,100, $1,200, etc.

So I think that they do need to seriously reconsider how they select people to be taken off of the plane. Clearly there are going to be some cases where a person may be able to handle flying alone but cannot handle this much disruption. I personally do not believe a rational person would have responded in the manner the man responded in; tweet about it, Facebook, yell a few obscenities as they disembark the plane but to be dragged off to me is not something a rational person would have to be forced into. I do want to clarify I think what happened to him is horrible and should not have happened.

Also, clearly they were not offering enough if NO ONE on the flight wanted to give up their seat. So I do think that they should just be forced to pay market value for the bump, i.e. the price goes up until enough people are willing to accept the offer.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I'm Nashville - most of my friends, colleagues are NYC, Chicago, San Fran, DC - several million milers. Most of my "people" won't even fly my beloved SWA! In Nashville, its great! I used to really dislike Delta, but I have to go to ATL a good deal, so its growing on me after a bad experience in my mid 20s; not using United isn't a big deal, but I did like them. They were my favorite way to get to Dulles.

I don't go to Asia often, but this is what I've read from CNN.
China is the second largest aviation market in the world and a key focus for United, which claims it "operates more nonstop US-China flights, and to more cities in China, than any other airline."

I don't think they're dead, but I think this an impactful hit.

Several friends have told me that SWA is awesome but their prices usually suck out of SeaTac. I used to dislike Delta too, but now I use it and Alaska about equally. Delta seems to have gotten better and I like the comfort leg room option. Alaska has a monopoly out of my home town, but they're better than both United and American anyway, which I try to avoid, so I don't mind the monopoly there so much.