United Airlines Forces Man off of oversold flight

[bcla]

I do see how it's different. But I never rest easy until we take off. My flights have been boarded and unboarded and re boarded so many times I don't count on taking off until we are actually taxiing. I've been on flights that board 45 minutes early and yet still get off the ground an hour late.

I've been on a plane that made it all the way to the runway, stopped for several minutes, and turned back. Everyone was forced off while they fixed the plane. They did bring out sandwiches at the gate, but (I kid you not) the Canadian national basketball team double or triple dipped faster than the rest of us could come back for seconds.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Oh, that's a winner in the stupid reasons to change someone's flight accommodations for sure. I can understand cultural beliefs preventing the two men from wanting to sit near her & rub elbows with her. (Hey, who am I to judge. My religion puts chocolate eggs in Easter baskets, LOL.) However, the proper thing to do would to be to tell the two men that they knowingly booked those seats on a public flight, knowing that anyone including a woman could be a woman seated in their row. Their options wouild be 1) They can move rows, and there may be none available that would suit them, or 2) better yet, book an entire isle to themselves on another flight.

Following from #2 above, if a flight is full and someone has booked and paid for an extra seat for any number of reasons (size, assistance dog, space), does the flight crew have the right to take that seat away?

Female fight attendants were also not allowed to serve these same men. That seems even more extreme to me. Yet it happened. I guess I wonder what would've happened had there been a protest about this? I guess nothing since the seat had already been changed pre-boarding. But what if it was a situation like the one the other day, where she was already seated and they wanted her to move for this reason? Given that this is how they seemingly operate, it's not out of the realm of possibility that this could happen.

Oh, and how would men feel about this if it were them, for some reason? Or even their wives, daughters or friends? Or even a stranger?

I've been on a plane that made it all the way to the runway, stopped for several minutes, and turned back. Everyone was forced off while they fixed the plane. They did bring out sandwiches at the gate, but (I kid you not) the Canadian national basketball team double or triple dipped faster than the rest of us could come back for seconds.

Haha I could totally see that happening!

 

[Magpie]

I think just about every angle of this story has been beat to death, but one thing has been jumping out at me as I read all the commentary...

Redditors (whose demographic skews young): "Oh no! Grandpa! They can't treat my grandpa like that!"

DisBoarders (whose demographic seems to skew older): "Sir, you are making a ridiculous scene. You should exit the plane in a dignified manner, and protest through the proper channels."

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think most of us knew we could be bumped. That is not the issue.

Few of us knew that we could be FORCED TO DEPLANE AFTER BOARDING AND NOT ALLOWED BACK ON DUE TO SPACE. Do you not see how that is drastically different? I thought when I was on the plane I was safe. Now I have to wait for take-off to know I'm going to get where I"m going? Not okay (and hopefully already illegal, as details are starting to suggest)

That's a good point. I honestly don't think I've worried about being removed from the plane for lack of space. It just hasn't occurred to me. I suppose one should prepare for all sorts of scenarios but I would think the vast majority of passengers sorta just assume once boarding has started and certaintly once you're on the plane you're golden as far as having a seat on the plane (not talking about things passengers themselves do that cause them to be booted from the plane).

 

[Albort]

yikes, 2 broken teeth, broken nose...

 

[mefordis]

yikes, 2 broken teeth, broken nose...

Also a significant concussion. I'm suprised about the broken nose. It didn't appear hurt in the footage but who knows what all they did to him.

 

[bcla]

That's a good point. I honestly don't think I've worried about being removed from the plane for lack of space. It just hasn't occurred to me. I suppose one should prepare for all sorts of scenarios but I would think the vast majority of passengers sorta just assume once boarding has started and certaintly once you're on the plane you're golden as far as having a seat on the plane (not talking about things passengers themselves do that cause them to be booted from the plane).

What happened here was a string of rather crazy events. I heard a suggestion that the reason for the crew to bump passengers already boarded was that they had already missed their connection and it was a last minute change to this flight. I don't know how rare that would be.

A lot of people are faulting United for their policy or perhaps the way they implemented their policy. However, I'm not sure they really have much legal liability for this guy's injuries. They basically just called the cops to effect a removal. If I call for a police response because there's someone at my front door who I don't know, I'm not responsible if they provide a disproportionate response like shoot him or smash his face to the ground. I personally think all United has against them is a question of contract law. They did nothing criminally negligent since they didn't perform the removal.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

I've been on a plane that made it all the way to the runway, stopped for several minutes, and turned back. Everyone was forced off while they fixed the plane. They did bring out sandwiches at the gate, but (I kid you not) the Canadian national basketball team double or triple dipped faster than the rest of us could come back for seconds.

We had a SW flight take off, fly for 10 minutes and then land again in Philadelphia. Something was wrong with the door. We had to get off and wait for SW to send another plane. We were on our way to Orlando. LOTS of kids on the flight. Early morning flight so most kids passed out within those 10 minutes. Imagine waking up a bunch of kids and they think they've landed in WDW. There was LOTS of crying! And that was just me. lol

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

What happened here was a string of rather crazy events. I heard a suggestion that the reason for the crew to bump passengers already boarded was that they had already missed their connection and it was a last minute change to this flight. I don't know how rare that would be.

A lot of people are faulting United for their policy or perhaps the way they implemented their policy. However, I'm not sure they really have much legal liability for this guy's injuries. They basically just called the cops to effect a removal. If I call for a police response because there's someone at my front door who I don't know, I'm not responsible if they provide a disproportionate response like shoot him or smash his face to the ground. I personally think all United has against them is a question of contract law. They did nothing criminally negligent since they didn't perform the removal.

Well I do agree about the string of rather crazy events. I think it's just bringing to people's attention that yeah I guess there has been a possibility of being asked to give up your seat once you have already boarded. Who knows what, if anything, will happen now down the road but at least for sometime after this whole thing people flying might just be antsy until the plane has fully taken off and they are in the air.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Also a significant concussion. I'm suprised about the broken nose. It didn't appear hurt in the footage but who knows what all they did to him.

I'm not surprised! He was bleeding from the nose and mouth - where else would that come from? And absolutely a significant concussion - enough of a blow to the brain that he passed out, as I said earlier. There is the possibility of more, such as fractures and other significant things to the head, brain, neck, etc. They don't keep you in the hospital for several days for broken teeth, a broken nose, or even, usually, a concussion. I'm sure he had imaging right away and who knows what they found. I'm sure the people involved have the information, though, and thats why we're seeing serious penalties such as leave of absences for all security. It's hard to imagine slamming his head, face first, into an arm rest under these circumstances.

 

[design_mom]

A lot of people are faulting United for their policy or perhaps the way they implemented their policy. However, I'm not sure they really have much legal liability for this guy's injuries. They basically just called the cops to effect a removal. If I call for a police response because there's someone at my front door who I don't know, I'm not responsible if they provide a disproportionate response like shoot him or smash his face to the ground. I personally think all United has against them is a question of contract law. They did nothing criminally negligent since they didn't perform the removal.

You are right that the police are the ones who responded and United may or may not bear financial responsibilities for his injuries. But at least in the public's opinion they are guilty of involving the police when maybe there didn't need to be any. (I am not an expert, but several experts I've heard have said that it was no longer an IDB issue and they might not have been able to reclaim his seat at that point.)

For your example of calling the cops because is a stranger is at your front door, I think most people would agree that if you were afraid that was a reasonable time to call the cops. But let's take this example:

I'm holding a garage sale. You come to my house and purchase an item. Before you've left my yard, my sister sees the item and says "Oh, I wanted that. Why'd you sell it to him?" I decide I really should have offered it to my sister before selling it to you. I ask you politely to return it. I even offer you four times what you paid in an attempt to buy it back. You refuse. You've paid for it. You have possession of it. You want the item. It's yours. So I call the cops and tell them you stole the item from me. They injure you trying to apprehend you/take it back. Am I responsible for your injuries now?​

 

[Magpie]

You are right that the police are the ones who responded and United may or may not bear financial responsibilities for his injuries. But at least in the public's opinion they are guilty of involving the police when maybe there didn't need to be any. (I am not an expert, but several experts I've heard have said that it was no longer an IDB issue and they might not have been able to reclaim his seat at that point.)

For your example of calling the cops because is a stranger is at your front door, I think most people would agree that if you were afraid that was a reasonable time to call the cops. But let's take this example:

I'm holding a garage sale. You come to my house and purchase an item. Before you've left my yard, my sister sees the item and says "Oh, I wanted that. Why'd you sell it to him?" I decide I really should have offered it to my sister before selling it to you. I ask you politely to return it. I even offer you four times what you paid in an attempt to buy it back. You refuse. You've paid for it. You have possession of it. You want the item. It's yours. So I call the cops and tell them you stole the item from me. They injure you trying to apprehend you/take it back. Am I responsible for your injuries now?​

Was this item a rare collectible Woody doll with "Andy" written on the foot?

I always wondered how this movie would have played out if mum had legitimately sold Woody to the collector. The other toys still would have launched a rescue mission... but would they have been right to do so? I feel like the movie took the easy way out, by having Mom refuse the sale and the collector then steal Woody. No moral dilemma to see here, kids!

 

[Albort]

Also a significant concussion. I'm suprised about the broken nose. It didn't appear hurt in the footage but who knows what all they did to him.

i was reading an aviation forum, they are curious to see if the NTSB would do an investigation now because if someone was injured on board, its considered an accident...
should be interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

[JaxDad]

You are right that the police are the ones who responded and United may or may not bear financial responsibilities for his injuries. But at least in the public's opinion they are guilty of involving the police when maybe there didn't need to be any. (I am not an expert, but several experts I've heard have said that it was no longer an IDB issue and they might not have been able to reclaim his seat at that point.)

For your example of calling the cops because is a stranger is at your front door, I think most people would agree that if you were afraid that was a reasonable time to call the cops. But let's take this example:

I'm holding a garage sale. You come to my house and purchase an item. Before you've left my yard, my sister sees the item and says "Oh, I wanted that. Why'd you sell it to him?" I decide I really should have offered it to my sister before selling it to you. I ask you politely to return it. I even offer you four times what you paid in an attempt to buy it back. You refuse. You've paid for it. You have possession of it. You want the item. It's yours. So I call the cops and tell them you stole the item from me. They injure you trying to apprehend you/take it back. Am I responsible for your injuries now?​

Did you have a legal contract-of-carriage-type agreement in place when he purchased the item at your garage sale that would place conditions on the sale, even after the fact? That could change your analogy. Just as with the United event, I'm personally not sure exactly how it changes it, but I'm pretty sure it will determine many aspects of the legal case(s) that go forward.

The aviation industry is a unique beast for many reasons, some legitimately so and others perhaps not so much. I agree with many here that hope this event will bring about reasonable, consumer-friendly reform.

 

[pryncess527]

Consumer-friendly reform doesn't seem to be in flavor right now, sadly.

 

[bcla]

I'm holding a garage sale. You come to my house and purchase an item. Before you've left my yard, my sister sees the item and says "Oh, I wanted that. Why'd you sell it to him?" I decide I really should have offered it to my sister before selling it to you. I ask you politely to return it. I even offer you four times what you paid in an attempt to buy it back. You refuse. You've paid for it. You have possession of it. You want the item. It's yours. So I call the cops and tell them you stole the item from me. They injure you trying to apprehend you/take it back. Am I responsible for your injuries now?​

That could be considered false report of a crime. The Chicago case had a clear case where they simply called them in to tell the police that they wanted this passenger off the plane and that he wasn't willing to leave voluntarily. I think it's clear that United never misrepresented what happened or what they wanted to achieve. And in any case it's not someone refusing to leave.

In my case I was thinking that perhaps trespassing might be the rationale, even if the homeowner doesn't know if it's legally gotten to that point yet.

The issue of refusal to leave is really tricky. Most businesses have a right to ask someone to leave for any reason. Even if the reason is not necessarily conforming to laws (like public accomodations) the police showing up with a trespassing call will typically not question the motive of the business but know that their obligation is to accept that it's trespassing because the business says so.

 

[pryncess527]

I don't think United is responsible for his injuries. If it is found that the police did not follow protocol in their removal, that is their fault.
United may be guilty of breaching the contract of carriage, depending on how denial of boarding is defined. United is absolutely guilty of poor policies that created this situation, but I agree that may not rise to the point of legal culpability. Damage has been done to their brand regardless.

 

[robinb]

Here's another. What if the flight crew asked you to move seats (or actually reassigned your seat) because you're a woman and there were men who, because of their cultural beliefs, didn't want to sit next to you?

This actually happened on United last fall!

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2016...cause-2-men-didnt-want-to-sit-next-to-female/

"Mary Campos says her pre-booked ticket was given away by United Airlines. The reason? She’s a woman, and two men didn’t want to sit next to a female.

A a million-mile flier, Campos — a mom who lives in Coto de Caza — said she thought she’d seen it all.

Until a gate agent handed her a new boarding pass just before she got on a flight to Houston last Monday.

“He said this is your new seat,” Campos said, “And I said, ‘Excuse me?’ And he said, ‘I don’t know how to tell you this'”

She said she continued by saying, “Yes?”

And the agent told her, “The two gentlemen seated next to you have cultural beliefs that prevent them for sitting next to, or talking to or communicating with females."

That’s when she said she wrote a letter to the CEO of United Airlines.

She got a reply that said United would look into it. She said she didn’t hear from them again."

It would be interesting to know how she was chosen. (Probably location, but she is a frequent flier.)

And the CEO apparently blew her off.

Yeah. At this point, I'm done with United.

On the flip side, I wonder how many people have asked to have their seats to be reassigned because they were seated next to a muslim.

 

[Albort]

press release was interesting... i saw a bullet point on the point guy.

he checked in at Los Angeles, i would think that would take off last one to check in off the table. Since its a 2 segmented flight, im wonder how he was chosen now. maybe he used miles? *shrugs*

 

[design_mom]

On the flip side, I wonder how many people have asked to have their seats to be reassigned because they were seated next to a muslim.

I wouldn't. I haven't. Although I'm sure there probably have been some who did. HOWEVER, I think there's a big difference between asking to have *your* seat be reassigned (for whatever reason) and asking for *the other person's* seat to be reassigned to suit your preferences.