United Airlines Forces Man off of oversold flight

[mom to minnie&mickey]

I flew United last summer with my family for the first and, now, last time. I am DISGUSTED by them. They oversell their flights, in effect selling seats that they do not have. If, for example, you sell 204 seats on a 200 seat plane then you do not have those extra 4 seats to sell. Why is this not fraud? When the airline accepts my money they are obligated to give me a seat on that particular flight. Period. Any issue that arises for them because of their business practices is not my problem!!! Airlines take a gamble that not all passengers will show up and that is fine when they win. However, in this case they lost the gamble and all of a sudden it becomes the paying passengers' problem. Like others have said they had options. Everyone has a price and if those seats were so badly needed for United staff then offer each passenger willing to be bumped $5000. You would see how quickly seats would have become available. They were too cheap to offer decent compensation and now their stock is down $90 Million dollars and counting. Such is life and karma!

 

[declansdad]

Wait: did they or did they not call in "authorities" to remove him from the plane if he refused to leave??

Let's not split hairs THIS finely!

But it did. There was a point in which a decision was made by the United staff - they said okay, we need this guy off the plane and that's it. Bring in the authorities. That decision is where United went horribly horribly wrong.

So you both are saying the authorities marched on to the plane and immediately hauled this guy out of his seat and off the plane?

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Everything else is on law enforcement. If I was a PR guy for United, I'd be saying "The passenger was being uncooperative, but we certainly do NOT support this particular response by law enforcement.".

You don't have enough info to conclude this. Not yet. None of us do. I heard one passenger say he was waving his arms like he was trying to swat/hit the officers...

What's on video definitely looks REALLY bad!! There just needs to be an investigation, obviously.

And NONE OF THIS would have happened if United handled this well.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

So you both are saying the authorities marched on to the plane and immediately hauled this guy out of his seat and off the plane?

No one said that. Read back several pages.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

As far as the police, I read an interesting point on another thread by a guy who is a cop at an airport (he didn't say which airport)
He said that in all liklihood, the police didn't know why this guy was being asked to be removed. They trust the airline employees that if the captain says "remove this guy" there's a reason. They will immediately remove the guy, assuming that airplane safety is on the line, and then once the person is removed, they'll figure out the story and arrest the person or not, depending on what else is going on.

He said that his training is not to get involved in disputes like this, and to just have the airline employees deal with it, but that once the captain says a person has to be removed, they don't question it, they just remove the person.

Hmm that's interesting...on the one hand makes sense (law enforcement following requests from the airlines) on the other it doesn't (blindly going in and dealing with the situation).

Knowing why someone needs to be removed is actually an important detail because it goes to what measures a person of law enforcement needs to use. You don't want to mess around with the security and safety of people but at the same time using measures that may not match the situation is a problem as well.

 

[DopeyDame]

If that is true it just points to the problem of airlines having too much power.

Absolutely. And, from the sound if it, not just "airlines" but any random gate agent. At the very least, as a PP upthread somewhere said, they need a policy that a station manager is called in to these situations before the police. (Maybe that happened, I'm not sure - it doesn't sound like it)

 

[DisBabe94]

So you both are saying the authorities marched on to the plane and immediately hauled this guy out of his seat and off the plane?

No, I'm saying the authorities were told by United to remove this man from the plane. Obviously they did not begin with assaulting him.

 

[pryncess527]

The did contact police. However, Chicago seems to have an unusual two-tier setup with unarmed airport police, as well as an armed airport bureau of the city police.

In many of these cases even armed police don't arrest anyone. They're there to effect a removal.

Right, which is why the second half of my statement included putting him under arrest.
If I'm breaking the law, arrest me.
But you do not get to assault someone when effecting a removal. If they resist, and you believe you have legal grounds to continue, then arresting them is the proper step.

 

[DopeyDame]

Hmm that's interesting...on the one hand makes sense (law enforcement following requests from the airlines) on the other it doesn't (blindly going in and dealing with the situation).

Knowing why someone needs to be removed is actually an important detail because it goes to what measures a person of law enforcement needs to use. You don't want to mess around with the security and safety of people but at the same time using measures that may not match the situation is a problem as well.

Yeah, I can definitely see why they'd need at least a little info.
"Uncontrolable drunk guy"
"Threatening other passengers"
or whatever.
I can easily see this United employee saying "belligerent to employees and refusing to comply with FA instructions" or something like that, which would give the cops a very different impression than the full story.

I obviously have no clue how it happened here, it was just an interesting perspective that the cops may have legitimately been under the impression that the guy had to get off the plane for a safety reason.

 

[JaxDad]

Has anyone read a reliable account of how/why he returned to the plane? Did he still go to Louisville on that flight?! Was he just getting his carry-on? It seems like a royal screw-up on someone's part (United or law enforcement). If he was returning to fly to Louisville, they should have treated him and made sure he was cleaned up. They just created more incriminating videos! And he should not have been allowed to just get his luggage if that was the case. Send a gate agent to do that...

 

[mom to minnie&mickey]

I saw an interview from another passenger saying that he was calm and composed when originally approached to leave the plane. He refused to leave his seat stating his reasons and only got agitated when security was called in. He started waving his arms when the cops put their hands on him to forcibly remove him. He was not a threat to anyone. He is the victim and I hope he takes United to the cleaners.

I seriously doubt that the police are not briefed ahead of time by the airline employees as to what the situation is on the plane before they go on, for their safety and everyone else's.

 

[bcla]

Still real police with authority.

It's kind of weird in this case. They seem more like "community service officers" than peace officers allowed to carry firearms. There were some pretty good articles about the differences well before this incident. Apparently they were instructed to only respond to incidents inside the security area, because of the possibility of someone being armed in the prescreening area.

http://abc7chicago.com/news/more-than-half-the-police-in-chicago-airports-are-unarmed/1407649/
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/12/us/chicago-unarmed-aviation-officers/

They apparently have law enforcement credentials and I suppose can make arrests, but they're not allowed to be armed. The first article includes a quote by a city alderman (and veteran police officer) saying that he thinks they should be armed.

 

[pryncess527]

I obviously have no clue how it happened here, it was just an interesting perspective that the cops may have legitimately been under the impression that the guy had to get off the plane for a safety reason.

Then why not place him under arrest?

 

[declansdad]

No one said that. Read back several pages.

That's what this implied.

OK. United just called them in to drag their paying customer off the plane because THEY mismanaged their crew travel.

Awesome.

 

[anniemae]

Has anyone read a reliable account of how/why he returned to the plane? Did he still go to Louisville on that flight?! Was he just getting his carry-on? It seems like a royal screw-up on someone's part (United or law enforcement). If he was returning to fly to Louisville, they should have treated him and made sure he was cleaned up. They just created more incriminating videos! And he should not have been allowed to just get his luggage if that was the case. Send a gate agent to do that...

This was my question too. Why did he come back on the plane saying "I have to go home" over and over. He was dragged out then came running back down the aisle. Have not heard any explanation for this.

 

[DopeyDame]

Then why not place him under arrest?

So this is my understanding of the post I was reading from a totally anonymous stranger on a random internet board, so please don't take this as any kind of fact:
But basically, he was saying that the prime directive *on board* the plane is to remove the person. Once they are back inside the airport, then they hash out the details and determine if an arrest is necessary or not. But that on the plane, they don't override a captain's judgement about a passenger removal. (Which makes sense, you don't want the two authorities in the cockpit having some sort of pissing contest about what constitutes a legit reason for removal.) There are certainly reasons to be removed from the plane which aren't actually illegal and worthy of arrest.

 

[Deb in IA]

I agree it doesn't matter if he is or isn't a doctor. His reason to wanting to fly doesn't trump the passenger in Seat 12B who wanted to be home in time to watch NCIS: Los Angeles.

But nobody should have been removed from the plane is such a manner.

What if your dad had an appointment with this doctor the next day, and ended up getting sick or dying because he couldn't be seen?

 

[dlavender]

Perhaps honesty would have been the best policy for UA?

Take $800, or we will have to remove four of you at random. And if you don't willingly "re accommodate", we will call the cops to forcibly remove you.

Didn't realize this plane was flying out of the CCCP.

 

[bcla]

Right, which is why the second half of my statement included putting him under arrest.
If I'm breaking the law, arrest me.
But you do not get to assault someone when effecting a removal. If they resist, and you believe you have legal grounds to continue, then arresting them is the proper step.

I dunno. There are some weird situations where police get involved because they're hired to do a job. One of them is for various "off duty" assignments such as working concerts, sporting events, etc. If someone is using foul language in violation of a team's code of conduct, a representative of the team decides if someone merits ejection. And in those case they will typically send an armed officer to escort the person out, and typically not in handcuffs. I've seen cases where it looked like someone might just be let out of a stadium, but then got belligerent and the cuffs were on in two seconds. I don't know if he was arrested, but I'm guessing they had the discretion to do so. On top of that, many of these officers are "double badged" (employed in another department but wearing another uniform for an event) so they may not want to arrest someone during a part time gig unless it's really serious.

I'm a train enthusiast, and when a passenger is "put off" the requirement of most passenger railroads is for uniformed law enforcement to meet the train to enforce the removal. The removal may be for a violation of policy and not a violation of any law. Amtrak has its own police department, but they may not be able to respond to a call in rural Nebraska, so they'll typically call in local police or sheriffs. Even tourist railroads have their own police.

They don't usually want to arrest someone simply for being agitated. However, they are authorized to use force, even if an arrest isn't made.

 

[dlavender]

Just saw so far UA has lost 900 million in market value.

I know this is temporary, but dang!

Again, how can companies be so short sighted and plain stupid?

Could have bought this man his own plane and come out way way way ahead.