Unfathomable: Church Massacre

As far as war memorials . . . Have you visited sites in Western Europe, including Germany, where German Soldiers killed in battle are buried? Have you seen any swasticas, or WWII German flags there? Nope, that didn't happen. Not on identified grave sites, not on memorials for the unknown, not on the monuments at those sites.
 
As far as war memorials . . . Have you visited sites in Western Europe, including Germany, where German Soldiers killed in battle are buried? Have you seen any swasticas, or WWII German flags there? Nope, that didn't happen. Not on identified grave sites, not on memorials for the unknown, not on the monuments at those sites.

And yet we still remember and are taught about the role they played in history.
 
As far as war memorials . . . Have you visited sites in Western Europe, including Germany, where German Soldiers killed in battle are buried? Have you seen any swasticas, or WWII German flags there? Nope, that didn't happen. Not on identified grave sites, not on memorials for the unknown, not on the monuments at those sites.

But isn't it the fact that hate groups used the rebel flag not that it was used by the confederate army? Thats what keeps being said.

That makes it a lot different than than the swastika.
 
But isn't it the fact that hate groups used the rebel flag not that it was used by the confederate army? Thats what keeps being said.

That makes it a lot different than than the swastika.


For me it's both. The confederate was fighting for states rights. That included the right to be a slave state. As a black woman with a southern heritage (both of my parents are from SC~my ancestors on both sides were slaves in SC)I would have to be a damn fool to embrace the confederate army, flag or anything else associated with them.
 

For me it's both. The confederate was fighting for states rights. That included the right to be a slave state. As a black woman with a southern heritage (both of my parents are from SC~my ancestors on both sides were slaves in SC)I would have to be a damn fool to embrace the confederate army, flag or anything else associated with them.

But you are ok with the fact that slavery took place under the American flag? And much of that slavery existed until the end of the war just like it did in the south? Their right to own slaves ended with the war too and thats when they gave them up. Are you also ok with the atrocities the freed slaves faced in north after the war, also under the American flag? Its very simple to say that all the horrible things that African-Americans have faced are the fault of the south but it simply isn't true.
 
But you are ok with the fact that slavery took place under the American flag? And much of that slavery existed until the end of the war just like it did in the south? Their right to own slaves ended with the war too and thats when they gave them up. Are you also ok with the atrocities the freed slaves faced in north after the war, also under the American flag? Its very simple to say that all the horrible things that African-Americans have faced are the fault of the south but it simply isn't true.

Actually, the American flag that flew when the atrocities such as slavery was legal in both the 'North' or the 'South' is not the same United States flag that flies today. Different number of stars. So if folks (not saying you specifically luvsjack ... but in general) are going to point out small differences between the various versions of what we call the 'Confederate' flag. Then folks should acknowledge that the U.S flag of 2015 with 50 stars was not the same flag that flew at the end of the civil war when there were only 36 states.

I say learn from our mistakes and let the past stay in the history books and museums.
 
Where did I ever say I placed all of the blame on the south?

Yes, I'm OK with the flag of OUR COUNTRY.
 
Actually, the American flag that flew when the atrocities such as slavery was legal in both the 'North' or the 'South' is not the same United States flag that flies today. Different number of stars. So if folks (not saying you specifically luvsjack ... but in general) are going to point out small differences between the various versions of what we call the 'Confederate' flag. Then folks should acknowledge that the U.S flag of 2015 with 50 stars was not the same flag that flew at the end of the civil war when there were only 36 states.

Those small differences are pretty big when you realize that the Confederate flag was 3 bars and a circle of stars. No X on it.

You are right that the American flag was different. But it meant the same thing as the one we fly today.

I don't disagree that the battle flag should come down. What I disagree with is that no flag can be used.

The Jeff Davis home here in MS has many flags. The only one that comes under fire is the battle flag. So take it down. But the other Confederate flag, the flag that actually flew over the Confederate states, no one says a word about. I find that interesting.
 
Where did I ever say I placed all of the blame on the south?

Yes, I'm OK with the flag of OUR COUNTRY.

So we are back to the fact that the south lost the war. No one has ever suggested that any flag fly in the place of the stars and stripes.

I can certainly understand the fact that you find the rebel flag offensive. Fine, let's get rid of it.. But don't give reasons that did not happen only under that flag or under that flag at all.

A preacher that I grew up with posted something on facebook this morning that I wish I could copy and paste here. He talks about how ridiculous it is to be offended by symbols and yet not offended by actions. He talked about men not standing up and being fathers, people living on welfare, hate in people's hearts and actions--those things offend him. Not flags or symbols. He is African-American, born and raised in the south.
 
If I wanted to play the tit for tat game, I would post links to articles, posts....by southern white people who agree with me.
 
Its not about playing tit for tat. I wouldn't copy or share his post because he is black but because he is so right.

There are thousands of symbols in the world that anyone can be offended by. The fluer de li has come into question. Aunt Jemiah and Uncle Ben. But actions are what is important. Human actions.

His post further talked about growing up where we did and going to school where we did. Playing football on a team with a rebel mascot. And yet he never felt there was a race problem or felt looked down upon because of his race. He talked about choosing to be offended by symbols and ignoring the true problems.
 
Its not about playing tit for tat. I wouldn't copy or share his post because he is black but because he is so right.

There are thousands of symbols in the world that anyone can be offended by. The fluer de li has come into question. Aunt Jemiah and Uncle Ben. But actions are what is important. Human actions.

His post further talked about growing up where we did and going to school where we did. Playing football on a team with a rebel mascot. And yet he never felt there was a race problem or felt looked down upon because of his race. He talked about choosing to be offended by symbols and ignoring the true problems.

Just because he feels that way, doesn't mean there is something wrong with those who do not. Hating symbols doesn't mean you're ignoring other issues.

The fact that the two of you think it's an either/or thing is amazing.

I hate the confederate and all of their symbols AND agree with everything else the preacher said. See, it really is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.
 
How does the symbolism of the "Stars and Bars" differ from the symbolism of the swastika? Our brothers in Germany and other European countries use the Battle Flag because the swastika is illegal. Here in the U.S.A. We use both together.
"Our brothers"??????

Who are you and what organization are you a part of?
 
Just because he feels that way, doesn't mean there is something wrong with those who do not. Hating symbols doesn't mean you're ignoring other issues.

The fact that the two of you think it's an either/or thing is amazing.

I hate the confederate and all of their symbols AND agree with everything else the preacher said. See, it really is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Its also possible to stop looking for things to be offended by and look at the true human problens in this country.

Its also possible to listen for just a second to people who have actually grown up, live and still live in the region you obviously hate and think for just a moment that just maybe they know wht they are talking about.

And stop blaming the confederacy. You have well shown a dislike for the south and the people who live here. Being from SC doesn't change a thing.

Myself nor the preacher ever said its either or. But he is a smart man from a state he loves and he knows firsthand how much racism he has experienced rather than sitting in another region and assuming things.
 
How does the symbolism of the "Stars and Bars" differ from the symbolism of the swastika? Our brothers in Germany and other European countries use the Battle Flag because the swastika is illegal. Here in the U.S.A. We use both together.

What are you talking about? I have no brothers in Germany nor do I know or care what symbols they use The groups here that use the battle flag for their hateful acts are cowards and not something that I would ever want to be associated with.

As for what I meant, there is a difference in a flag that flew over a country and one that was picked up and used by a group of cowards hiding behind bedsheets.
 
As far as war memorials . . . Have you visited sites in Western Europe, including Germany, where German Soldiers killed in battle are buried? Have you seen any swasticas, or WWII German flags there? Nope, that didn't happen. Not on identified grave sites, not on memorials for the unknown, not on the monuments at those sites.
Let me start by saying that I'm perfectly fine with them removing the flag from the SC Capitol building. It's hard to define that the timing of the Confederate Battle's appearance on that lawn as something other than rooted in a "screw you" to the Desegregation movement. But, I disagree with your analogy of the display of that flag to those of The Third Reich. Such flags are not absent in Germany because of some sense of decency, but by laws (passed with the influence of the victors in the war) out of a desire to try and stamp out any remaining pockets of German Nationalism after the war's end as the Nazi party and any imagery associated with it were made illegal. Such bans in other EU countries were more an understandable reaction to the harms inflected on them by those marching under that flag. Such issues with the Confederacy were a little more tricky as it was an internal conflict and the "They" where part of "Us". There was not the sort of vilification of the Confederacy that was aimed at the Nazis, nor should there have been. This notion is famously encapsulated by Abraham Lincoln's "Better angles of our nature" quote made in an effort to fend off the conflict:
"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
The move to not demonize the Confederacy post-war started at Appomattox Court House, with notably mild surrender terms that Lee said would "have a very happy effect on my army." Lincoln was smart enough to know that while the Confederacy was on the wrong sides of the issues that triggered the war, vilification after-the-fact wasn't going to help matters once the shooting stopped.

While I agree that reversing things like the display of the battle flag on the Capitol lawn in SC, with documented roots as a counter-reaction to the Civil Rights Movement, are worth consideration, I think other anti-Confederacy reactionism is WAY off base. Barring the sale of items predominately bearing the flag at places like the Gettysburg Visitor's Center? Really? Barring that one may be placed on the grave of a Confederate soldier? Really?

But this is moving past the flag itself too. This news item really upset me: Birmingham city officials take steps to remove Confederate monument at Linn Park This has nothing to do with the flag. It's nothing more than an attempt to purge history. I was born, and live, in a part of the country where our larger cities name their parks "Lincoln" and "Grant". My direct-paternal 3rd great grandfather was part of Sherman's March and died of small pox in Savannah after completing that trek to the sea. One of my wife's great-grandfathers (not 3rd or 2nd, but first) was part of a Kentucky Confederate cavalry unit (being a schizophrenic State whose citizens fought on both sides) who was part of Morgan's Raiders that was captured trying to re-cross the Ohio River after a raid into that state and spent a few years as a POW in Camp Douglas outside of Chicago (not far from today's Grant Park) that was known as the North's "Andersonville". I've found out these facts from the genealogy work that I have done in recent years.

But had my wife's great grandfather perished as a result of attempting to flee his Union pursuers at Buffington Island, Ohio, or been one of the estimated 6,000+ POW prisoners that had died at Camp Douglas due to disease, starvation, or exposure... I don't think for a minute that the deaths of either one of these two men would have been more or less worthy of memorialization than the other. Should this Confederate memorial, located in Chicago, marking what's considered that largest mass grave in the Western Hemisphere, be likewise removed because some might be offended by it?
 
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I must dislike most of my family. The vast majority of my family still live in SC. Those who came to NYC and PA in the 60's are all moving back ti SC once they retire. I attended college(a HBCU) in NC. Last year my son graduated from a HBCU on VA last year. You are completely off the mark when you say I dislike the south. I love SC and have found memories of the summers I spent there as a child.

The fact that you want to pretend that all southerns embrace the confederate and their symbols is hilarious. I have a ton of family and friends who were born and raised in the south who would disagree with you. So yes, I have listened to southern who were raised and currently live there.

My hate for the confederate doesn't mean I hate the south and southerns. That would mean I hate myself, my family and our heritage.

There's nothing you can say to change my opinion. I don't go around looking for things to he offered by.
 
I never said the entire south embraces the confederacy or its symbols. Heck, I don't embrace it. I do respect our history.

And I do believe that this whole thing started at a tragedy that had nothing to do with a flag but with a drug addict who was able to obtain a gun he never should have had.

I do believe that there are those who think we should wipe out any mention of a certain part of our history and thinking this will suddenly fix certain problems when the reality is it will not.

You hate the confederacy because of slavery, I get that and its understandable, of course. Slavery is a horrible part of the history of this country, but of the entire country not just one part. As is Sherman burning the south. And the killing of thousands of Native Americans. And the interment of Japanese Americans. And many parts of our history. Too many parts that we need to move forward from.

If removing a battle flag helps some move forward, so be it but this insanity of trying to wipe out history doesn't help anything.

Don't change your opinion, I never asked you to. But recognize that other's opinion means as much as yours.
 
The memorials to, and cemeteries for, German soldiers killed in the war exist as they should. They are not nearly as grandiose as the American and Allied cemeteries and memorials. As the it should be. But, what you don't see are veteren's cemeteries or special for those veterans that died after the war.

How much do we read into Lincoln's statements given that his death preceded the surrender of most confederate forces and the government? I suspect that the southern roots of Johnson had much more to do with the leniency of reconstruction.
 
So are you saying that there should be no confederate memorials? Or historic sites that memorialize the confederacy?
 












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