Unfathomable: Church Massacre

[Geoff_M]

My hate for the confederate doesn't mean I hate the south and southerns.

For me, it's not that simple. Believe me, I have no love for the Confederacy, nor am I nostalgic for it or feel it was romantic. However in my mind I differentiate between "The Confederacy" as a political entity that declared the war and those that were asked to prosecute the war on its behalf. I think most Southern have also made a similar differentiation in their minds. I don't think it's an accident that in the South the names of "Lee" and "Jackson" carry much more weight than "Davis" and "Stephens" as the former pair were responsible for the fates of so many of their family members. I recently finished reading Shelby Foote's Stars in Their Courses: The Gettysburg Campaign. While I read the book, I looked forward to getting to the part about Day 3, when Meade's forces finally crush Lee's. However, along the way you as a reader you cannot help but develop a respect for those in the Confederate army... even if they were on the wrong side of the conflict. An example are the members of the units assigned to make Pickett's ill-fated charge, many of them who had ignored orders to remain hidden below the crest of the hill between them and the union lines and saw the "valley of death" that they had been told they soon would be asked to march into. One quote from one of these men stands out. Upon seeing a rabbit running to the rear of the lines as the infantry were hidden behind trees, a soldier said "Run you ol' hare! If I was an ol' hare, I'd be running too!" Those men were fellow Americans before, and to those that survived, afterwards too.

 

[Geoff_M]

The memorials to, and cemeteries for, German soldiers killed in the war exist as they should. They are not nearly as grandiose as the American and Allied cemeteries and memorials. As the it should be. But, what you don't see are veteren's cemeteries or special for those veterans that died after the war.

How much do we read into Lincoln's statements given that his death preceded the surrender of most confederate forces and the government? I suspect that the southern roots of Johnson had much more to do with the leniency of reconstruction.

I encourage you to visit Gettysburg, it you haven't. When there, notice the tilted balance of the number of memorials to one side versus the other, as well as the organization of the graves of those that were killed there. The pattern you mention is repeated there too. Here's a list of all of the monuments within Gettysburg National Military Park. Note that the ratio is about 10:1 Union vs. CSA. On top of that, note that most of the Confederate monuments weren't put in place until later in the 20th Century. Until that time Gettysburg was pretty much a "Union only" affair.

On the subject of the burial of Confederate veterans, via the NPS:

Confederate soldiers could not be buried in national cemeteries, nor were they afforded any benefits from the United States Government for many decades after the end of the Civil War. When the reburial corps in the late 1860s found the remains of Confederate soldiers lying near those of Union soldiers, they removed the Union soldiers but left the Confederates’ bodies. Because identification of remains was difficult at best, many Confederate soldiers were reburied in national cemeteries, unintentionally as Union soldiers. Confederate prisoners of war were often interred in “Confederate sections” within the national cemeteries. Generally, within national cemeteries and at other cemeteries under the care of the Federal Government, Confederate graves were marked first with wooden headboards (as had been Union graves) and later with marble markers with just the name of the soldier engraved on the stone, so that they were indistinguishable from civilians buried in the national cemeteries. Private organizations, especially women’s organizations established in former Confederate states after the war, assumed responsibility for Confederate reburials. One of the more prominent groups was the Hollywood Memorial Association, which raised funds to move the bodies of Confederate soldiers from the battlefields of Gettysburg and Drewry’s Bluff to Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond, Virginia. The appearance of grave markers varied in these Confederate cemeteries depending on the preferences of the supervising organization.

 

[CPT Tripss]

We shouldn't be surprised about the victors decisions on monuments.

When discussing the cemeteries, I meant to differentiate between those that died in battle and those whose death occurred many years after the conflict - the veterans.

 

[luvsJack]

Are you saying that, in your opinion, the Confederate veterans should not be buried in Arlington or other national cemeteries?

 

[Geoff_M]

When discussing the cemeteries, I meant to differentiate between those that died in battle and those whose death occurred many years after the conflict - the veterans.

Understood, but from what I gather Confederate veterans have never had burial rights in Federal cemeteries based on that service alone like their Union counterparts (though it gets a bit cloudy in the case of Vets that later served in other American wars, such as Confederate General Joe Wheeler that later was part of Teddy Roosevelt's "Rough Riders" during the Spanish-American war). The Confederate dead buried in Federal cemeteries are very largely those that died while under the care of the Union, no different than German Nazi POWs in WWII that died while in US camps during that war. The only expansion of any benefits for Confederate Vets was in 1914 when Congress agreed that the Commission for Marking Graves of Confederate Dead (formed in 1906 to mark unmarked Confederate graves in Federal Cemeteries) should also be tasked with providing headstones for any such unmarked graves on non-Federal lands too. Here's a good summary.

 

[Yzerbear19]

Here's a list of all of the monuments within Gettysburg National Military Park. Note that the ratio is about 10:1 Union vs. CSA. On top of that, note that most of the Confederate monuments weren't put in place until later in the 20th Century. Until that time Gettysburg was pretty much a "Union only" affair.

one of the reasons for the difference in the number of Union and Confederate monuments is that the individual units and states had to pay for them. The southern ones simply didn't have the money to do so. And most of the Condederate monuments represent the entire state instead of individual units. And this isn't unique to Gettysburg. There are very few Confederate monuments at Antietam. The Maryland State monument there is unique because it honors both the Union and Confederacy.

 

[luvsJack]

Understood, but from what I gather Confederate veterans have never had burial rights in Federal cemeteries based on that service alone like their Union counterparts (though it gets a bit cloudy in the case of Vets that later served in other American wars, such as Confederate General Joe Wheeler that later was part of Teddy Roosevelt's "Rough Riders" during the Spanish-American war). The Confederate dead buried in Federal cemeteries are very largely those that died while under the care of the Union, no different than German Nazi POWs in WWII that died while in US camps during that war. The only expansion of any benefits for Confederate Vets was in 1914 when Congress agreed that the Commission for Marking Graves of Confederate Dead (formed in 1906 to mark unmarked Confederate graves in Federal Cemeteries) should also be tasked with providing headstones for any such unmarked graves on non-Federal lands too. Here's a good summary.

The ones in Arlington were either killed in battle or as a pow. After the Spanish American war and many confederates serving, Southerners were then given the right to take care of these graves and they were given proper headstones.

I am not sure what the pp thinks should have happened. These men were, afterall, Americans. And since many went on to serve in another war and there was a great desire to make this country whole again, there was a need to allow these men to be honored in the same way as other soilders.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Are you saying that, in your opinion, the Confederate veterans should not be buried in Arlington or other national cemeteries?

No I don't support burial in a Veteren's Cemetary if the only military service was under the Confederate Flag. Assuming Geoff is correct, that didn't happen unless the person died in the care of the U.S. Military.

I do not support any special honor other than the honors bestowed on all buried in National Cemetaries. As I understand it no flags or other commemorative items are permitted in these cemetaries. And FWIW, I think the decision to allow the Cross of Honor on Confederate grave markers was wrong, but since they are there, leave them.

 

[luvsJack]

No I don't support burial in a Veteren's Cemetary if the only military service was under the Confederate Flag. Assuming Geoff is correct, that didn't happen unless the person died in the care of the U.S. Military.

I do not support any special honor other than the honors bestowed on all buried in National Cemetaries. As I understand it no flags or other commemorative items are permitted in these cemetaries. And FWIW, I think the decision to allow the Cross of Honor on Confederate grave markers was wrong, but since they are there, leave them.

I would say that it is probably a good thing that those before us thought differently. They were trying to make this country whole again. While there is a confederate memorial at Arlington there is nothing special about their graves that aren't done for any others. the markers are shaped differently and has the southern cross on it.

You do realize that there are memorials all over this country of men who did things that were wrong.

Regardless of the reasons for the war, the Confederate soilder was just as brave and honorable as any other soilder who leaves his home and his family to serve. And from them is a heritage of future generations who have just as bravely picked up arms and defended their country.

These men were Americans.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I would say that it is probably a good thing that those before us thought differently. They were trying to make this country whole again. While there is a confederate memorial at Arlington there is nothing special about their graves that aren't done for any others. the markers are shaped differently and has the southern cross on it.
.

Some want this country and Americans divided. They don't want healing, so they continue to punish the South. This isn't about the Civil War, just a convenient way to shut down dissenters

 

[Geoff_M]

No I don't support burial in a Veteren's Cemetary if the only military service was under the Confederate Flag.

Nor do I, but I don't think people ever demanded that right be given. They didn't deserve government pensions either, like their counterparts.

I do not support any special honor other than the honors bestowed on all buried in National Cemetaries. As I understand it no flags or other commemorative items are permitted in these cemetaries.

I believe that assumption is incorrect. Arlington does have stricter policies, but they are but one National Cemetery. Here's the policy from the National Cemetery closest to me:

FLORAL/GROUNDS POLICY
Cemetery policies are conspicuously posted and readily visible to the public.

Floral arrangements accompanying the casket or urn at the time of burial will be placed on the completed grave. Natural cut flowers may be placed on graves at any time of the year. They will be removed when they become unsightly or when it becomes necessary to facilitate cemetery operations such as mowing.

Artificial flowers and potted plants will be allowed on graves for a period of 10 days starting the Thursday before Easter and Memorial Day.

Christmas wreaths (18” or 24”) are permitted during the period Dec. 1 through Jan. 31. Artificial flowers are permitted from Nov. 1 through March 31. They may not be secured to headstones or markers.

Permanent plantings, statues, vigil lights, breakable objects and similar items are not permitted on the graves. The Department of Veterans Affairs does not permit adornments that are considered offensive, inconsistent with the dignity of the cemetery or considered hazardous to cemetery personnel. For example, items incorporating beads or wires may become entangled in mowers or other equipment and cause injury.

Permanent items removed from graves will be placed in an inconspicuous holding area for one month prior to disposal. Decorative items removed from graves remain the property of the donor but are under the custodianship of the cemetery. If not retrieved by the donor, they are then governed by the rules for disposal of federal property.

I see no blanket prohibitions against flags.

The bottom line is that there has been little in the way of "special" treatment for Confederate soldiers/sailors after the war from our government. Except that they were all paroled and allowed to keep their horses. Post-1914 (almost 50 years after the end of the war), the US Government agreed to buy them a simple grave marker if their family could not afford one. Confederates that died as POWs or the few that were buried by the Union after battles, and were not dis-interred by family and reclaimed, remain within many of our National Cemeteries (often later relocated into "Confederate Sections", not open to vets). Personally, I don't think these remains should be treated with any less dignity than anyone else buried therein.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Nor do I, but I don't think people ever demanded that right be given. They didn't deserve government pensions either, like their counterparts.

I believe that assumption is incorrect. Arlington does have stricter policies, but they are but one National Cemetery. Here's the policy from the National Cemetery closest to me:I see no blanket prohibitions against flags.

The bottom line is that there has been little in the way of "special" treatment for Confederate soldiers/sailors after the war from our government. Except that they were all paroled and allowed to keep their horses. Post-1914 (almost 50 years after the end of the war), the US Government agreed to buy them a simple grave marker if their family could not afford one. Confederates that died as POWs or the few that were buried by the Union after battles, and were not dis-interred by family and reclaimed, remain within many of our National Cemeteries (often later relocated into "Confederate Sections", not open to vets). Personally, I don't think these remains should be treated with any less dignity than anyone else buried therein.

I don't think semi-permanent flags and markers are permitted. It seems that the placement of U.S. flags does occur on a temporary basis on Memorial Day and Veteran's Day.

I agree that the same dignity and respect should be provided to each individual interred in these cemetaries. But, that ought not include any recognition on days that celebrate the CSA.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Some want this country and Americans divided. They don't want healing, so they continue to punish the South. This isn't about the Civil War, just a convenient way to shut down dissenters

Do you understand the effect of "secession?" Who acted to divide this country?

 

[TLSnell1981]

Do you understand the effect of "secession?" Who acted to divide this country?

You do realize, that was 150 years ago? My comment was referencing the here and now.

 

[luvsJack]

Do you understand the effect of "secession?" Who acted to divide this country?

You seriously need to get past the civil war.

The pp was talking about the here and now.

Removing the flag as moved on to moving graves and markers in Memphis. Removing a bust in Memphis. Talks of removing statues in New Orleans. Changing the MS state flag. What do you think that is doing? Causing division.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Do you understand the effect of "secession?" Who acted to divide this country?

Do you remember the result of attempts to punish Germany's aggression in WWI?

 

[TLSnell1981]

Do you remember the result of attempts to punish Germany's aggression in WWI?

WWII?

 

[Geoff_M]

I don't think semi-permanent flags and markers are permitted. It seems that the placement of U.S. flags does occur on a temporary basis on Memorial Day and Veteran's Day.

There is no such blanket policy across National Cemeteries that I can find. Some permit them, and others don't. Such restrictions are explicitly stated in the cemetery's grounds policy when they are in place.

I agree that the same dignity and respect should be provided to each individual interred in these cemetaries. But, that ought not include any recognition on days that celebrate the CSA.

Sorry, that's a bit too vindictive for me... and that's coming from someone on the side that won.

 

[Yzerbear19]

This is getting really out of hand:

Atlanta NAACP Says “They Can Sand Blast Lee, Jefferson Davis, And Jackson” Off Stone Mountain

 

[dinolounger]

This is getting really out of hand:

Atlanta NAACP Says “They Can Sand Blast Lee, Jefferson Davis, And Jackson” Off Stone Mountain

It is and the more outrageous these demands become, the more division and anger they create. Or put another way, not only is the remove symbols stuff making it more difficult to facilitate healing and coming together, it's becoming counterproductive and sadly leading to exactly what Dylann Roof wanted.