Underage drinking parties UPDATED INFO POST 68.....

[NHdisneylover]

Ohhh Heck NO!
DD's school has a cell phone agreement that included me as a parent giving some unknown "administrator" permission to view my child's calls and texts upon demand. I refused to sign it, instructed DD to not sign and reminded her that if anyone ever tells her to hand over her phone for viewing or a password for Facebook etc. that she is to state calmly and respectfully "call my parents, now" and do not comply.

I don't like to be a trouble maker but I do think that we as parents need to draw our own lines in the sand and stand by them.

Good for you

 

[FireDancer]

Yup, we have that law here too. You also can not walk home because being drunk in public is also against the law. One of the local bars had a designated driver on duty, and they would drive the patrons home. A few years ago the local cops started pulling that DDs over, and arresting the people in it who were drunk. They still got DUIs or Drunk in Public even though they weren't driving or anything. The DD would also get a ticket. Granted, I don't think this lasted long, and I'm betting any of the people who tried to fight it got it thrown out, as the legality of it was shady at best. But it shut down the bars DD program, they couldn't bother with it when they would get at least two tickets a night.

That is because DUI laws are not about safety and never have been. They are about making money. If they were about safety they would not pull over DDs or arrest you for sleeping in your car and not driving home. Safety is a side effect of the money crab no doubt but it isn't the main motivator.

Considering how many Americans love things like the Patriot Act and NDAA and support and re-elect their authors and signors (which encompasses both parties by the way) it isn't really that big of a stretch that so many give up more freedoms to the government which is exactly what public schools are...an extensions of the government. There have been companies that asked for your Facebook credentials and no way would I agree. I'd walk out of the interview no matter how high the salary was.

 

[pacrosby]

I'm of the opinion that the kids who drink to get drunk and binge and etc. are more often the ones who didn't drink socially to begin with. If it's just a normal thing to drink, and has no 'woohoo!! Party! Quick!' forbidden fruit/taboo associated with it, I think kids are less likely to binge like that, or to think of that as what alcohol is for.

I often hear people point to Europe and their more relaxed attitude towards kids and drinking as some sort of proof that we have it all wrong. But this link:

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/598175-teenage-drinking-figures-across-europe

suggests that Europe is really no better off than the US when it comes to teens and drinking. And this wasn't the only article that supported that.

Kids are kids. They do what kids do. I knew plenty of kids who were allowed to drink in moderation with their parents present who still whooped it up on the weekends with their friends. Kids whose parents bought the beer for the party who often ended up being the most inebriated of the bunch. The typical teen/college "parties" are not about sitting around with a cocktail playing mah-jong. They are not about having a beer or two while enjoying a football game. Never were, never will be. Not even in Europe where parents brush wine across their infants lips so they will get used to the taste. Not ALL kids get wrapped up in all that it's true. But many do. And since wine at dinner has nothing to do with being a party with 100+ other kids on a Saturday night, it's unlikely to significantly reduce the participation in this activity that's been part of our culture for generations.

ETA: I've never liked the taste of liquor. Not as a kid and not now as an adult. Not even wine. But I was a drinker in my teens and twenties. It had nothing to do with not knowing how to drink in moderation or not understanding social drinking. It wasn't a matter of being thirsty or being social. The purpose was to get buzzed because that was what made it 'fun'. Just like when we smoked pot. Maybe you don't get it because you were never one of 'those' kids. Maybe your kids weren't 'those' kids either. But they exist, and lots of them. All over the country and all over the world.

 

[cmurray234]

Kids go to parties and drink. This is a fact of teenaged life.

But does that mean I'm supposed to put my rubber stamp of approval on it?

Let's say for a moment that I was personally okay with my 15 year-old getting drunk with a bunch of other 15 year-olds. I'm not, but let's say that I am.

There is still the fact that it's against the law. I'm not sure I want to instill a lesson that goes, "It's okay to break laws you don't like as long as you don't get caught".

That is a slippery slope of moral ambiguity that I am not willing to model for my children.

Mostly though, it's a safety issue. I was a teenager. I saw my girlfriends get themselves in VERY unsafe situations because they were drinking. I saw boys wait to make their moves until girls were too drunk to care enough to say no.

So am I okay with it? h**l no, I'm not okay with it.

 

[Planogirl]

I often hear people point to Europe and their more relaxed attitude towards kids and drinking as some sort of proof that we have it all wrong. But this link:

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/598175-teenage-drinking-figures-across-europe

suggests that Europe is really no better off than the US when it comes to teens and drinking. And this wasn't the only article that supported that.

Kids are kids. They do what kids do. I knew plenty of kids who were allowed to drink in moderation with their parents present who still whooped it up on the weekends with their friends. Kids whose parents bought the beer for the party who often ended up being the most inebriated of the bunch. The typical teen/college "parties" are not about sitting around with a cocktail playing mah-jong. They are not about having a beer or two while enjoying a football game. Never were, never will be. Not even in Europe where parents brush wine across their infants lips so they will get used to the taste. Not ALL kids get wrapped up in all that it's true. But many do. And since wine at dinner has nothing to do with being a party with 100+ other kids on a Saturday night, it's unlikely to significantly reduce the participation in this activity that's been part of our culture for generations.

ETA: I've never liked the taste of liquor. Not as a kid and not now as an adult. Not even wine. But I was a drinker in my teens and twenties. It had nothing to do with not knowing how to drink in moderation or not understanding social drinking. It wasn't a matter of being thirsty or being social. The purpose was to get buzzed because that was what made it 'fun'. Just like when we smoked pot. Maybe you don't get it because you were never one of 'those' kids. Maybe your kids weren't 'those' kids either. But they exist, and lots of them. All over the country and all over the world.

Those European numbers vary a lot. You have to wonder what Armenia is doing right.

 

[badblackpug]

Ohhh Heck NO!
DD's school has a cell phone agreement that included me as a parent giving some unknown "administrator" permission to view my child's calls and texts upon demand. I refused to sign it, instructed DD to not sign and reminded her that if anyone ever tells her to hand over her phone for viewing or a password for Facebook etc. that she is to state calmly and respectfully "call my parents, now" and do not comply.

I don't like to be a trouble maker but I do think that we as parents need to draw our own lines in the sand and stand by them.

Just a question about viewing the cell phone. Is this a policy that they can demand to view the cell phone at any time for any reason?

I ask this because my kids' school has a no cell phone rule. Meaning that they are not permitted to have a visible cell phone during school hours. The phone either needs to be kept in their bag or in their locker and it must be silent. If the phone is seen it is confiscated and a parent must come in to retrieve it. They make it this way so they don't actually have to view it. There were too many issues with kids texting/not paying attention/cheating.

I was just wondering if your kids' school had the "view it" thing to check and see if they were using it in class.

As for the "contracts" as I said before, no one is forcing your kids to participate in extra-curricular activities. It is purely optional. If they can't, or won't, abide by the contract, then they shouldn't participate in the activity.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Those European numbers vary a lot. You have to wonder what Armenia is doing right.

Can you find some links which show the rate of teen deaths from drunk driving and from alcohol poisoning in the US vs continental Europe? I am not dong well with google today--maybe you or someone else will do better.

Just looking at percentages who say they have been "drunk" does not mean much to me-- know some cultures define that vastly differently than others. Plenty of American teens know will say "they were just buzzed" and not consider it drunk unless they had enough to throw up, pass out or at least have a hang over.

 

[crashbb]

Can you find some links which show the rate of teen deaths from drunk driving and from alcohol poisoning in the US vs continental Europe? I am not dong well with google today--maybe you or someone else will do better.

Just looking at percentages who say they have been "drunk" does not mean much to me-- know some cultures define that vastly differently than others. Plenty of American teens know will say "they were just buzzed" and not consider it drunk unless they had enough to throw up, pass out or at least have a hang over.

That and the fact that they asked 15 and 16 year olds. In many of the countries in that list they were either legally drinking or 1 year underage. Compared to the US stats where they were 5 to 6 years underage. Makes a big difference in the interpretation of those numbers.

 

[luvsJack]

I personally think that is just crazy. Being a private school I can see how they can get away with more monitoring but no way would I go along with that. Too much room for abuse of power.

The abuse of power would be my concern. I wouldn't care if they saw dd's texts or fb posts, but I would be worried if there weren't specific guidelines as to what would consitute an inappropriate text or post.

Wow. Just wow. I don't like to get into the whole Big Brother thing, but NO WAY am I ever going to allow something like that. I mean, what exactly are they looking for? And if they find something, then what?

I don't know if they are looking for bullying or general inappropriatnes or what exactly. I know that the kid's can be disiplined for whatever they are looking for but the parents that were telling me didn't say what the disipline would be.

 

[crashbb]

HaHa, boy did that come out wrong... It was a 6 figure income that I meant to type. Boy, cant believe I missed that one.

Glad you took my teasing as it was meant (I worried after I posted that I might have offended you).

I actually agree with you though. If the thought of killing or seriously injuring themselves/others or the thought of fines/lost license/jail time doesn't stop them from driving drunk, I doubt that the threat of job loss would. They've already decided that they won't get caught.

 

[pacrosby]

Just looking at percentages who say they have been "drunk" does not mean much to me-- know some cultures define that vastly differently than others. Plenty of American teens know will say "they were just buzzed" and not consider it drunk unless they had enough to throw up, pass out or at least have a hang over.

You're absolutely right, there is only so much that you can take from it. But it certainly takes away this notion that allowing kids to sample alcohol from a young age thereby making it less taboo, or making it legal at an earlier age, takes away that teenage desire to overembibe.

American kids are different make different choices than their European counterparts do for more reasons that we can count. IMO this belief that kids drink heavily in the US simply because it's illegal and parents have made it taboo is oversimplifying things.

 

[NHdisneylover]

That and the fact that they asked 15 and 16 year olds. In many of the countries in that list they were either legally drinking or 1 year underage. Compared to the US stats where they were 5 to 6 years underage. Makes a big difference in the interpretation of those numbers.

Very true--it is much more likely that a teen who was legally drinking will admit it than one who was not legally doing so.

 

[badblackpug]

Kids go to parties and drink. This is a fact of teenaged life.

But does that mean I'm supposed to put my rubber stamp of approval on it?

Let's say for a moment that I was personally okay with my 15 year-old getting drunk with a bunch of other 15 year-olds. I'm not, but let's say that I am.

There is still the fact that it's against the law. I'm not sure I want to instill a lesson that goes, "It's okay to break laws you don't like as long as you don't get caught".

That is a slippery slope of moral ambiguity that I am not willing to model for my children.

Mostly though, it's a safety issue. I was a teenager. I saw my girlfriends get themselves in VERY unsafe situations because they were drinking. I saw boys wait to make their moves until girls were too drunk to care enough to say no.

So am I okay with it? h**l no, I'm not okay with it.

This is my thought. I know it's going to happen, but I won't allow it or condone it. So, if my kid asked permission to go to a party where I knew there would be drug/alcohol, the answer would be "no."

I am not naive enough to think that they are never going to do it. I suspect they will do what I, and countless other teens have done and lie about it. "I'm going to the movies, the mall, etc." I just hope they use some common sense. We are no anti-alcohol, we do drink here (the adults) so I think the kids don't see alcohol as a huge taboo.

As for serving alcohol to underage kids. That is a big old "h3ll no!" We both hold professional licenses, and any child endangerment charge results in loss of those licenses. ...not to even mention the lawsuits that would occur if anything were to happen to a child whom you knowingly allowed to consume alcohol in your home.

 

[NHdisneylover]

You're absolutely right, there is only so much that you can take from it. But it certainly takes away this notion that allowing kids to sample alcohol from a young age, or making it legal at an earlier age, makes it less taboo and takes away that teenage desire to overembibe.

American kids are different from their European counterparts for more reasons that we can count. IMO this belief that kids drink heavily in the US because it's illegal and parents have made it taboo is oversimplifying things.

Yes, it is simplistic--but think it is a part of it and worth discussing. Actually, I think our entire attitude towards alcohol n the US is a big factor, and I have no idea how you would go about changing that.

I never said that European teens do not drink--did someone else that I missed? What I said is that they tend not to drink nearly as much when partying---getting drunk is not usually the point here--but it often is in the US.

I think the majority of times when teens drink in the US it is in "secret" without adults around to intervene when it starts to go too far.

On the other hand, the majority of the time that teens drink in Germany it is out in public, often at clubs, with plenty of adults watching and able to step in if needed.

 

[ChristmasElf]

As long as it's a one-time thing, colleges aren't going to care. They ask the question on the application, the student answers truthfully, and writes a little essay about what he or she as learned, and that's that.

(Perhaps not true at, say, BYU or College of the Ozarks, but true pretty much everywhere else.)

I am an interviewer for a top 20 university. I see several of these every year. Really has no impact on the admissions decision.

I have seen where colleges will turn a blind eye towards drinking and pot (among other things) even when it involves their sports teams.
I know a few people that go to a semi popular but very close to the beach school known for its partying ways. There is drinking going on every night of the week as the bars are right there. And even though the website lists rules and drinking and drugs will not be tolerated it goes on, and they just ignore it.
Or maybe just pretend that their "little Joey" would never be involved in that type attitude.
Very sad.

 

[pacrosby]

Yes, it is simplistic--but think it is a part of it and worth discussing. Actually, I think our entire attitude towards alcohol n the US is a big factor, and I have no idea how you would go about changing that.

I never said that European teens do not drink--did someone else that I missed? What I said is that they tend not to drink nearly as much when partying---getting drunk is not usually the point here--but it often is in the US.

I think the majority of times when teens drink in the US it is in "secret" without adults around to intervene when it starts to go too far.

On the other hand, the majority of the time that teens drink in Germany it is out in public, often at clubs, with plenty of adults watching and able to step in if needed.

Sorry for the confusion.....no, you never said that. In fact no one said it specifically. Some one else however did say that they thought it was our attitudes about alcohol that caused our kids to be so irresponsible with their drinking and further suggested that allowing kids to sample alcohol all along would take away the mystique and significantly reduce the allure of getting drunk. I know that Europe has a much different attitude about alchohol hence the reference to the statistics.

I just think that partying is a thing that kids do here. Why more so than other places, I don't know. Probably for a lot of reasons. If it's not the alcohol, it's the drugs. Very young teens, who often have a hard time scoring alcohol, have been known to resort to chemical intoxicants. Simply put, they like how it makes them feel. And that's not to say that I don't think that there are ways to help kids make better decisions. But this notion that the only reason they get stinkin' drunk is because no one taught them to drink in moderation is alittle short-sighted IMO

 

[mamacatnv]

Just a question about viewing the cell phone. Is this a policy that they can demand to view the cell phone at any time for any reason?

I ask this because my kids' school has a no cell phone rule. Meaning that they are not permitted to have a visible cell phone during school hours. The phone either needs to be kept in their bag or in their locker and it must be silent. If the phone is seen it is confiscated and a parent must come in to retrieve it. They make it this way so they don't actually have to view it. There were too many issues with kids texting/not paying attention/cheating.

I was just wondering if your kids' school had the "view it" thing to check and see if they were using it in class.

As for the "contracts" as I said before, no one is forcing your kids to participate in extra-curricular activities. It is purely optional. If they can't, or won't, abide by the contract, then they shouldn't participate in the activity.

This came straight from the handbook and was sent home with a page of other major rules that required signature by the parent and the student.
In addition to the below, there was a line added that a student must surrender their phone to any administrator when asked and must provide access to all call/text records.

I would not sign this one. I understand the need to control cell phones in school, I really do but I had issues with 2 areas of this policy, I highlighted in red.

The display and/or use of a cell phone during normal school hours is prohibited. When a phone is seen or
heard by a staff member, the device will be taken to the front office and tagged with the student’s name.
For the student’s first offense the phone will be released to the student after three school days.

For the student’s second offense the phone will be released to the student’s parent/guardian after three school days and a fine of $15.

For the student’s third offense the device will be released to the student’s parent/guardian after 30
calendar days and a fine of $15.

For the student’s fourth offense the phone will be released to the student’s
parent/guardian at the end of the school year and a fine of $15.

Student cell phones that are used for cheating or contain inappropriate, vulgar, or pornographic pictures or
messages may be confiscated for the rest of the year upon the first offense. Cell phones used to send
threatening messages may also be confiscated upon the first offense for the remainder of the year. Cell
phones are subject to search when there is reasonable cause to believe that the cell phone was used to
commit a code of conduct violation or contains evidence of a code of conduct violation.

My issues:
Who decides what is inappropriate or vulgar?
Who decides reasonable cause?
Like I said there was also an additional line about handing the device over to an administrator when asked. Ummm, NO

My kid, my phone and my job to protect their rights. I don't advocate thumbing a nose at policy but I do draw some lines and this happens to be one of them.

I should add, when DD returned to school with the form, one teacher noted the missing signatures. My DD said nicely that "my parents will not sign that and told me I could not either" and the teacher said that was fine. We never heard another word about it.

 

[ladypage]

Those European numbers vary a lot. You have to wonder what Armenia is doing right.

Just so you know, Armenia has no minimum drinking age. I think that number falls down to what they considered drunk when they were asked that question. A few of my dads friends are Armenian, and the few times I met them they were downing alcohol like there was no tomorrow. Not in celebration of anything, but just because that was the way they were raised and that was part of their culture, or at least that's what they told me. I would have considered them totally wasted, but they didn't even consider themselves tipsy.

 

[Pipkin]

Yes, it is simplistic--but think it is a part of it and worth discussing. Actually, I think our entire attitude towards alcohol n the US is a big factor, and I have no idea how you would go about changing that.

I never said that European teens do not drink--did someone else that I missed? What I said is that they tend not to drink nearly as much when partying---getting drunk is not usually the point here--but it often is in the US.

I think the majority of times when teens drink in the US it is in "secret" without adults around to intervene when it starts to go too far.

On the other hand, the majority of the time that teens drink in Germany it is out in public, often at clubs, with plenty of adults watching and able to step in if needed.

Maybe not true!

By most measures, European youth actually drink more, get drunk more, and do so earlier in life than their American peers (though in certain settings, such as colleges and universities, American youth still lead the drinking world). And there’s surprisingly little evidence that introducing young people to alcohol earlier or lowering the drinking age does anything except lower the age at which young people start to drink.

“The number of British, German, Scandinavian and other teenagers stumbling into hostels at 5 a.m. in London, Paris or Prague is pretty overwhelming,” said one American college student traveling in Europe, who asked not to be named discussing drinking. “Lax drinking laws, a low drinking age, and a plethora of discos, bars and clubs give kids a lot of opportunities to get totally out of control.”

http://www.thenextgreatgeneration.com/2010/07/how-we-get-hammered-the-european-vs-u-s-drinking-age/

 

[ladypage]

Maybe not true! http://www.thenextgreatgeneration.com/2010/07/how-we-get-hammered-the-european-vs-u-s-drinking-age/

I read that as an opinion piece, as there is only one source that they actually refer to, and even that doesn't seem to necessarily give the whole picture. I just skimmed it, so maybe I missed it, but the study was about teens who have had more than 5 drinks (in a row?) in the past month.Did they specify what kind of drinks? 5 beers spread out over a night doesn't phase me as much as 5 shots in a row. And the fact is, that in my experience, this kids also hold their alcohol better.