UGGGG - School Issues - WWYD

[debster812]

My .02c worth:

DS will be in 7th grade in Sept. In 4th grade he got the 'dreaded teacher'. You know, when you tell others who ask, "Who did DS get next year?", and they get a look on their face, and go 'ewwww'. Yep, that was us, that's who DS got. I will admit, I panicked a little, as this teacher had a rep as being a yeller, and a jerk. But it was all rumor and conjecture, and playground gossip. I spoke to DS's elementary principal, and elementary guidance counselor. (kids in our town move to the middle school in 4th grade). Both of them basically told me that DS was in that class, and there was really nothing we could do to move him, without any real concerns. So with much trepidation, DS went to 4th grade.

He positively THRIVED that year. Probably one of his best years. This teacher was VERY strict, pretty stern, demanded excellence, and did not tolerate a lot of playing around. He also had a very dry, sarcastic sense of humor, which DS knows all about, since DH also has that.

So, in our experience, not buying into the gossip around town, and letting the cards fall where they landed, ended up with DS having a great year.

 

[mickeyboat]

You may not want to answer this or can't, but are there more specifics as to why you don't want this teacher? Is it because she is the "old school" teacher & the other is newer with newer ideas?

Did your oldest DS13 that confirmed the teacher is bad have her as a teacher? Is she physical or verbally abusive with the students? Does she belittle them? Do you have first hand knowledge/experience with anything?

I have twins also (they are almost 17 & an older DD), but we have always put them in different classes. We've never requested & sometimes one has gotten the "good teacher" & other times one has gotten the "bad teacher" (or so we are told). I always like to form my own opinions to be honest.

I am not in your shoes & don't know the specifics of your situation, but if she is just a tough teacher & is not verbally abusive to the kids & doesn't belittle them, is there any way you could give her a chance? Are there any kids/parents that come away from her class happy or does everyone dislike her?

My .02c worth:

DS will be in 7th grade in Sept. In 4th grade he got the 'dreaded teacher'. You know, when you tell others who ask, "Who did DS get next year?", and they get a look on their face, and go 'ewwww'. Yep, that was us, that's who DS got. I will admit, I panicked a little, as this teacher had a rep as being a yeller, and a jerk. But it was all rumor and conjecture, and playground gossip. I spoke to DS's elementary principal, and elementary guidance counselor. (kids in our town move to the middle school in 4th grade). Both of them basically told me that DS was in that class, and there was really nothing we could do to move him, without any real concerns. So with much trepidation, DS went to 4th grade.

He positively THRIVED that year. Probably one of his best years. This teacher was VERY strict, pretty stern, demanded excellence, and did not tolerate a lot of playing around. He also had a very dry, sarcastic sense of humor, which DS knows all about, since DH also has that.

So, in our experience, not buying into the gossip around town, and letting the cards fall where they landed, ended up with DS having a great year.

I am glad you both posted. My DD9 got the "dreaded" teacher in 2nd grade. I was worried, but I also have two in the same grade, different classrooms, so I figured they would each have a chance to deal with a tough teacher. DD9 loved her 2nd grade teacher. I didn't always agree with some of her practices, but DD seemed to be o.k. with them. If I had listened to the rumors, she might not have had such a good year. I do think there have been some lasting effects from having that teacher, but I think each elementary school teacher leaves each child something that changes him or her.

That being said DD9 got the "dreaded" teacher for 4th grade, too. I am taking a wait and see approach. It might just be exactly the kind of teacher she needs.

Denae

 

[pianoronni37]

I can tell you from first-hand experience with a "bad teacher" that they DO affect our lives in a negative way.

My high school music teacher was awful, condescending, sarcastic, and just plain mean. On the day that my dog died (I'd had her since I was 2 years old, I was 17 when she died) I was obviously upset in class, I had lost a member of my family. She actually mocked me in front of the entire orchestra (using "faces" and everything), sending me out of the room in tears.

Of course, there were her "favorites," the children who always got the solos, who always got the scholarships, who always got the attention.

I had been playing piano since I was 3 years old. I learned from a private instructor for 15 years. I was quite talented, I had won competitions and had far exceeded what our small school's program could provide.

However, when I told her I wanted to be a music teacher, she told me, and I quote, "You are a very small fish in an even smaller pond. The real world will eat you alive."

I was accepted into a wonderful music school, but because of her words... I actually declined acceptance after my 2nd semester. I had to pay back loans and work, but eventually I went back to school to be an English major, instead of my original plan. Her words haunted me.

Her words hurt me more than anyone's could have, as I was so desperately seeking her approval - but because I wasn't the nicest dressed or brought her gifts, I wasn't a favorite and I didn't deserve her time of day.

I'm not blaming her for everything, the choices were made by me alone, but those words... they stabbed me like a knife.

I'm going back now, to be an English teacher, and I still play piano from time to time. I think my life would have been so much different had I had a teacher that supported my talent, instead of... well, I don't know what. But a 15 year old kid doesn't need that kind of reality check.

 

[TinkerBell22]

I've requested a certain teacher before & my kids go to a public school. I defiantly would if I was paying a tuition.

 

[twinmommyks]

I would rather not get into the specific details about this teacher, but IMO the behavior that "I have witnessed" is walking a line on both verbally abusive and perhaps physical. This isn't what I have heard through the grapeview. I form my decisions on what I see, not what I hear.

Next, I don't feel that I went above the principal's head. That would have meant by-passing her altogether and going straight to the priest. I simply copied him on the email and in the email I indicated that I would be more than willing to meet with both of them to discuss in detail my strong feelings and the specific situations I have witnessed that have caused these strong feelings. The fees that we pay are to the church, not to the school. So if we do not return to the school, the church will not receive the thousands of dollars I spend each year to send my children there. I thought he might want to be aware that this situation is severe and one that may cause us to pull our children out. He has always said follow the chain of command, which I did, but to keep him informed, which I did.

Next, I have given this teacher a chance. My ds13 did not have her, but he did in that she did lunch duty, recess duty, etc. and that was enough for him. Plus I have witnessed behaviors in church by this lady, that would be an ISS for a child. On of my best friends left church crying after she saw this ladies treatment of a student. At which time, the principal saw the crying mother and inquired about her tears. To which the crying mom told the principal about the teacher's inappropriate behavior.

Let me say, I have worked in education for 17 years (not as a teacher, but in the field), but I am now in the classroom so I am aware of all the reasons that people request teachers. Some are valid, some not, some are from well-informed parents, some not. It varies from person to person.

I don't request the easy teacher or the nicer teacher, I request what is best for my twins as whole. In fact, this year they had the tougher teacher, not the fun teacher, and I requested her. Yes, I requested the tough teacher, with strong disclipine and high standards while others were scared to death to have her.

The teacher in question is a weak teacher, with outdated curriculum, her disclipine methods include yelling, and a few other major things that I will not address on the boards and I honestly have never seen her smile. She obviously has reached burn-out and it shows.

I called the office today and the principal is out this week, but is checking in and they are going to have her call me. So now, I just wait.

 

[Teacher03]

I've requested a certain teacher before & my kids go to a public school. I defiantly would if I was paying a tuition.

I teach in a private, Catholic school, and it always bothers me when parents feel they should have more say in what goes on in a school because they pay tuition. I cannot tell you how many times our principal has heard the threat of pulling their children out of our school for reasons such as 1)I didn't pay allthis money for my child to get a C (tuition does not = all A's. Grades should be earned at both public and private schools.) 2)My child did not get the lead in the school play. 3)I don't like the teacher (personally, not because he or she is a bad teacher.) I could go on and on.... If you send your child to a private school, be involved and advocate for your child, but please don't think that you can dictate what goes on because you pay tuition.

With that being said, there are bad teachers that I would not want my children to have. However, teachers sometimes get a reputation that is undeserved. I taught with a wonderful teacher who was an amazing educator. Unfortunately, her rapport with the parents left alot to be desired. Everyone (the parents) hated her. I didn't like my own kids' K teacher for the same reason. I was placed with her for field work while I was in college, and it was only then when I realized how lucky my kids were to have her. I also have seen the reverse. .. a teacher with a wonderful reputation that talks a good game, but is ineffective and uncaring.

OP, I hope you get this resolved. If you feel strongly about this teacher, don't give up. Hopefully the principal will get back to you soon. Good luck.

 

[MELSMICE]

I would rather not get into the specific details about this teacher, but IMO the behavior that "I have witnessed" is walking a line on both verbally abusive and perhaps physical. This isn't what I have heard through the grapeview. I form my decisions on what I see, not what I hear.

Next, I don't feel that I went above the principal's head. That would have meant by-passing her altogether and going straight to the priest. I simply copied him on the email and in the email I indicated that I would be more than willing to meet with both of them to discuss in detail my strong feelings and the specific situations I have witnessed that have caused these strong feelings. The fees that we pay are to the church, not to the school. So if we do not return to the school, the church will not receive the thousands of dollars I spend each year to send my children there. I thought he might want to be aware that this situation is severe and one that may cause us to pull our children out. He has always said follow the chain of command, which I did, but to keep him informed, which I did.

Next, I have given this teacher a chance. My ds13 did not have her, but he did in that she did lunch duty, recess duty, etc. and that was enough for him. Plus I have witnessed behaviors in church by this lady, that would be an ISS for a child. On of my best friends left church crying after she saw this ladies treatment of a student. At which time, the principal saw the crying mother and inquired about her tears. To which the crying mom told the principal about the teacher's inappropriate behavior.

Let me say, I have worked in education for 17 years (not as a teacher, but in the field), but I am now in the classroom so I am aware of all the reasons that people request teachers. Some are valid, some not, some are from well-informed parents, some not. It varies from person to person.

I don't request the easy teacher or the nicer teacher, I request what is best for my twins as whole. In fact, this year they had the tougher teacher, not the fun teacher, and I requested her. Yes, I requested the tough teacher, with strong disclipine and high standards while others were scared to death to have her.

The teacher in question is a weak teacher, with outdated curriculum, her disclipine methods include yelling, and a few other major things that I will not address on the boards and I honestly have never seen her smile. She obviously has reached burn-out and it shows.

I called the office today and the principal is out this week, but is checking in and they are going to have her call me. So now, I just wait.

Then, unfortunately, if she's been there for more than 30 years, regardless of her tactics, etc., I highly doubt she's going anywhere. It sounds as though complaints have already been "logged against her".

I can tell that you feel very strongly about this, so I would either try to get them moved in to the other class or choose another school/church.

 

[teacher100]

It sounds like you have seen things first hand this teacher has done, and if she is willing to do things like that in front of parents I can't imagine what she would do when she is by herself. I think it is best to do this before school starts rather than after because the principal may be afraid other parents will follow suit. Just have a back-up plan. I know how you feel about not bringing your kids to school with you. I never have because so much is expected of teachers kids and when they do earn honors, parts in the play etc. the talk is
"well they are a teacher's child". Hopefully you are worrying over nothing and the principal just made an oversight. She should realize she is setting herself up for complaints when a child is placed in a class that was "unrequested".

 

[msmayor]

I would rather not get into the specific details about this teacher, but IMO the behavior that "I have witnessed" is walking a line on both verbally abusive and perhaps physical. This isn't what I have heard through the grapeview. I form my decisions on what I see, not what I hear.

Having read this, quite honestly I cannot believe you would even keep your children at a school that would tolerate this type of behavior from a teacher. The administration, by allowing her to remain, gives tacit approval to what she is doing.

Next, I don't feel that I went above the principal's head. That would have meant by-passing her altogether and going straight to the priest. I simply copied him on the email and in the email I indicated that I would be more than willing to meet with both of them to discuss in detail my strong feelings and the specific situations I have witnessed that have caused these strong feelings. The fees that we pay are to the church, not to the school. So if we do not return to the school, the church will not receive the thousands of dollars I spend each year to send my children there. I thought he might want to be aware that this situation is severe and one that may cause us to pull our children out. He has always said follow the chain of command, which I did, but to keep him informed, which I did.

If this is true, then the school operates differently that nearly every Catholic School out there. I have dealt with the finance side of the Church and a school, and Diocesan rules require that the financial ends remain separate. The church itself does not benefit financially from the school; if anything, the church is probably subsidizing the cost of education.

Next, I have given this teacher a chance. My ds13 did not have her, but he did in that she did lunch duty, recess duty, etc. and that was enough for him. Plus I have witnessed behaviors in church by this lady, that would be an ISS for a child. On of my best friends left church crying after she saw this ladies treatment of a student. At which time, the principal saw the crying mother and inquired about her tears. To which the crying mom told the principal about the teacher's inappropriate behavior.

Again, I reiterate...if this is true why are your children there? If you have knowledge of a teacher behaving inappropriately, whether your child is in that class or not, why would you not specifically bring this to the principal's attention when it happened? Or maybe you have, and just haven't mentioned it here.

It may be difficult for the principal to accede to your request unless you have already established a history of problems with this teacher, and put your concerns on record as they happened. The principal has every reason at this point to question your observations of what you characterize as serious problems as he/she wonders why in the world you haven't raised them sooner...only now, at class assignment time, are you bringing them to his/her attention.

 

[tinkermom23]

Sorry you cannot get this resolved quickly.
DS went to a private school in Kindergarten and we had heard wonderful things about the teacher and were really excited for him. Unfortunately, it was the worst year ever! By November I was hauling him over my shoulder,him screaming and still in his PJ's, to the car because he was refusing to go to school. It was not a pretty sight!
1st grade in the public school system was wonderful and he had the greatest teacher! She recommended we request a certain teacher for him for the 2nd grade and we did. It went well. Then in 3rd grade we didn't feel strongly about either teacher, and he might as well have stayed home as he learned little and had a tough year.
What I am trying to say is sometimes you request who you think will be great and they aren't while other times you worry and it turns out wonderful. I almost think choosing a teacher is a crap shoot, unfortunately.
I hope all works out!

 

[labdogs42]

I teach in a private, Catholic school, and it always bothers me when parents feel they should have more say in what goes on in a school because they pay tuition. I cannot tell you how many times our principal has heard the threat of pulling their children out of our school for reasons such as 1)I didn't pay allthis money for my child to get a C (tuition does not = all A's. Grades should be earned at both public and private schools.) 2)My child did not get the lead in the school play. 3)I don't like the teacher (personally, not because he or she is a bad teacher.) I could go on and on.... If you send your child to a private school, be involved and advocate for your child, but please don't think that you can dictate what goes on because you pay tuition.

People that think their kid should get an A or the lead in the school play because they pay tuition are idiots. They would be idiots no matter where their kids went to school.

I plan to send my DS to parochial school and I plan to be his advocate. I would certainly threaten to pull him (and his tuition check) from the school if he was in a classroom with a verbally abusive teacher. I plan to send him to a private school because I believe they teach to a higher standard. They should be held to that standard as well, and if they don't reach it, I have the right to pull my kid out. Sorry, but public and parochial school are totally different animals. IMO, Parents do get some say for paying that tuition..

 

[AZMermaid]

I plan to send my DS to parochial school and I plan to be his advocate. I would certainly threaten to pull him (and his tuition check) from the school if he was in a classroom with a verbally abusive teacher. I plan to send him to a private school because I believe they teach to a higher standard. They should be held to that standard as well, and if they don't reach it, I have the right to pull my kid out. Sorry, but public and parochial school are totally different animals. IMO, Parents do get some say for paying that tuition..

I went to both and I will say that parochial schools are great for the middle of the road type kid, average to above average academically, no behavior issues, SPED type issues, no real special needs, just an average kid. And there is nothing wrong with that. That is the kid who gets sorta lost in the public school system. But, private schools tend to not have the services that other kids may want/need- gifted services, varied extracurriculars, SPED etc. Anything a kid may need that is "extra." So, I actually disagree- for a kid who needs really high standards, a private school may not be the place for him. BUT, I think private schools tend to have more involved parents which correlates with better behaved kids and less distractions.

 

[Leajess99]

Teacher has been there over 35 years and complaints have been placed and nothing has been done.... not sure why, but that was part of the reason that I copied the "supervisor" who is the priest who is associated with our school. There have been instances in the past where he has indicated that he wished someone would have let him know about something sooner. So that's what I did.

My son had a teacher who was near retirement and she asked who in the class had ADHD so he raised his hand. He did not know better than to answer (my 6th grader now knows to not answer any medical questions asked in front of a whole class) the question so he raised his hand. I filed complaints with the principal and the school board and she got to keep her job and made my son's life miserable. She claimed it was a student led conversation which brought me back to the "why does it matter who led the conversation and did you ever wonder why said student wanted to know?" The kids that did raise their hands spent the school year being harassed and the principal kept using the "well you have to understand" line. That teacher is now retired and as she was being interviewed by our school news crew I clapped so loud and said it is about time she was done since she should have been fired for violating the children's rights.

If you are not comfortable with the teacher please pull your child. I so wish I would have done more for my oldest. I know better now and am standing up more for the younger 2.

 

[itutorfortravel]

Just wanted to encourage you to continue being an advocate for your child and push to have the teacher changed if you really feel having your child in the classroom will be a negative experience.

Our DD had a really bad experience in 1st grade. The teacher was loud, negative, and managed her classroom with sarcasm, intimidation, humliation. We tried to help DD cope with it, but after 3 months the situation was taking a downhill turn. Through lots of persistence we got our DD moved into another classroom. The principal didn't want to move her, but we felt we had given the teacher enough of a chance and it had gotten to the point of the teacher herself expressing her disgust with my daughter to me. I just couldn't leave my child in an environment like that. DD had changed from a child who loved school in preschool and kindergarten to one who dreaded school and begged not to go. She even started showing physical symptoms of stress like stomach aches, not sleeping, having nightmares, etc.

Come to find out, the teacher has had many complaints about her and even other teachers have said things that indicate that they do not agree with her classroom style. Once my DD was moved, she was happy and had no issues at all. I even had parents who knew my child tell me that my DD looked happier after being moved to another classroom.

As if there needed to be any more confirmation that we did the right thing...DD got her second report card just days after being moved to a new classroom. So, the original teacher did her report card. My DD said the teacher came down and handed the report card to her and said "just wanted you to know you got all 1's" (the worst grade you can get). Then said "just kidding". My DD told me this when she got home. Thankfully she didn't understand what the teacher meant, but can you get any more cruel and just downright innappropriate?! I couldn't believe it! My DD actually got best scores in everything, but this teacher felt the need to have one last "dig" at my daughter.

Elementary school is too early to turn kids off to school. If a teacher truly does not want to be in a classroom, he or she needs to find their true calling elsewhere.

Good luck to you. I know what you are going through.

 

[pandora174]

I went to both and I will say that parochial schools are great for the middle of the road type kid, average to above average academically, no behavior issues, SPED type issues, no real special needs, just an average kid. And there is nothing wrong with that. That is the kid who gets sorta lost in the public school system. But, private schools tend to not have the services that other kids may want/need- gifted services, varied extracurriculars, SPED etc. Anything a kid may need that is "extra." So, I actually disagree- for a kid who needs really high standards, a private school may not be the place for him. BUT, I think private schools tend to have more involved parents which correlates with better behaved kids and less distractions.

It's weird but I have both experiences. DS has a speech impairment. We had him 2 years in public school pre-k. The school offered so many services that we were thrilled ! OT, ST, physcologist, special ed teacher, small class ratio etc. "but" his behavior kept getting worse & worse & therefore I started noticing that he was not progressing academically. I even had to hire a private tutor to catch him up to get ready for Kinder.

I pulled him out & put him in a Christian private school & it has been a HUGE difference. His behavior in one semester has improved, academilcally it's been HUGE, socially he has made some very good friends. The school has music, art, PE, religion, computer classes. He also does have a special ed teacher that pulls him for one on one everyday. So for us the change has been a huge blessing. Now he has always been in private therapy even while in public but when I transitioned him over to private he outgrew the need for OT & pyschologist for behavior issues. He only sees his ST 1x a week vs 2x a week which I was paying for on top of the therapy he was getting in public school.


Everyone's experience is different but I thank God everyday that I pulled him when I did. He is now mainstreamed, gets A & B's & just is a little rambunctious In my personal experience the teachers at his current school are very involved & so are the parents.

 

[NYCDiane]

I went to both and I will say that parochial schools are great for the middle of the road type kid, average to above average academically, no behavior issues, SPED type issues, no real special needs, just an average kid. And there is nothing wrong with that. That is the kid who gets sorta lost in the public school system. But, private schools tend to not have the services that other kids may want/need- gifted services, varied extracurriculars, SPED etc. Anything a kid may need that is "extra." So, I actually disagree- for a kid who needs really high standards, a private school may not be the place for him. BUT, I think private schools tend to have more involved parents which correlates with better behaved kids and less distractions.

Please keep in mind that PRIVATE and PAROCHIAL schools are two completely different things and there is a huge, huge difference.

My daughter was in parochial (Catholic) school and I didn't like it at all -- not a well-rounded education at all and definitely no extra help if a child was struggling in any subject. My friend has all her kids in private school (at a cost of 30K per year for EACH child) and the education is something I can only dream about for my child. They learn not only academics, but there are so many other activities that help these children grow into well-rounded, educated, intelligent, thoughtful adults. If a child is struggling with a subject (which is very rarely the case because of their teaching methods), that child is given individualized help immediately to ensure the child is on-par with his/her classmates.

I have since taken my daughter out of parochial school and put her in public and it's like night and day. My daughter absolutely loves public school, she's happy about going everyday, and the school teachers and staff are wonderful.

 

[labdogs42]

Please keep in mind that PRIVATE and PAROCHIAL schools are two completely different things and there is a huge, huge difference.

My daughter was in parochial (Catholic) school and I didn't like it at all -- not a well-rounded education at all and definitely no extra help if a child was struggling in any subject. My friend has all her kids in private school (at a cost of 30K per year for EACH child) and the education is something I can only dream about for my child. They learn not only academics, but there are so many other activities that help these children grow into well-rounded, educated, intelligent, thoughtful adults. If a child is struggling with a subject (which is very rarely the case because of their teaching methods), that child is given individualized help immediately to ensure the child is on-par with his/her classmates.

I have since taken my daughter out of parochial school and put her in public and it's like night and day. My daughter absolutely loves public school, she's happy about going everyday, and the school teachers and staff are wonderful.

That's true, I should have differentiated. I grew up going to private, Catholic school (but not parochial). The school I'm looking at for my DS is parochial, but I think it will be a good fit for him. Private schools really should offer some kind of academic excellence, they sure cost enough!

 

[MELSMICE]

I plan to send my DS to parochial school and I plan to be his advocate. I would certainly threaten to pull him (and his tuition check) from the school if he was in a classroom with a verbally abusive teacher. I plan to send him to a private school because I believe they teach to a higher standard. They should be held to that standard as well, and if they don't reach it, I have the right to pull my kid out. Sorry, but public and parochial school are totally different animals. IMO, Parents do get some say for paying that tuition..

I think you are painting a very broad picture. Not all public school are the same, as well as all private schools. Just as with anything else, there are good & bad of everything (good teachers/bad teachers, good doctors/bad doctors, good lawyers/bad lawyers - you get the picture).

We live in an area that has outstanding suburban public schools. The city schools have their weaknesses & many parents send their kids to private schools if they live in the city.

IMO, regardless of whether a child goes to public or private school, what happens at home & the involvement of the parent as the continuing educator at home plays a huge role in the education of the child. If a parent is of the opinion that "I send my kid to school for his education, I'm not checking homework or doing anything extra, that's what teachers are for" then that child is most likely bound to fail or have a difficult time.

More private school parents may be more involved on that end than the public school parents, but that doesn't mean one school is better or worse. I'm not sure it has anything to do with a higher standard. DH & I, as the parents, hold our kids to a high standard & we have been there every day helping them to thrive in school.

As your son's parent you do have the right to put him or pull him from any school, and regardless of whether you are paying tuition for your child or taxes to the public school you have some say in how your child is educated. I don't think it's a cut & dry private is better than public blanket statement. Again - JMO!

 

[mjkacmom]

Please keep in mind that PRIVATE and PAROCHIAL schools are two completely different things and there is a huge, huge difference.

My daughter was in parochial (Catholic) school and I didn't like it at all -- not a well-rounded education at all and definitely no extra help if a child was struggling in any subject. My friend has all her kids in private school (at a cost of 30K per year for EACH child) and the education is something I can only dream about for my child. They learn not only academics, but there are so many other activities that help these children grow into well-rounded, educated, intelligent, thoughtful adults. If a child is struggling with a subject (which is very rarely the case because of their teaching methods), that child is given individualized help immediately to ensure the child is on-par with his/her classmates.

I have since taken my daughter out of parochial school and put her in public and it's like night and day. My daughter absolutely loves public school, she's happy about going everyday, and the school teachers and staff are wonderful.

That's how it is here - private school ($10,000+ a year) gives children a great education, Catholic school, not so much, especially if a child is academically gifted in any way, or needs extra help.

 

[TupperMom7]

Sounds like the teacher is not the only problem that school has. How can one teacher be creative and the other writes papers all day? Don't they have to have the same curriculum?