UAW Concessions?

[daughtersrus]

Anything that is done - bankruptcy, government loan, needs to kill the current contract mess (even if it kills the union, IMO), and hold the executives to account (limiting their pay etc. if necessary). But there is nothing sacred about a Chevy or a Chevy worker.

So should they be killing the contracts (not union but none the less they still have contracts) with the other companies that are getting a bail out?

 

[manning]

And once they accounted for 100%. The trend for the big 3 is downward.

Honda and Toyota have become the big winners are are still gaining ground.

When you can build a car for $47.00 an hour vs $75.00 who do you think is going to win.

 

[Galahad]

So should they be killing the contracts (not union but none the less they still have contracts) with the other companies that are getting a bail out?

Don't know what you are asking. Killing the union contracts lets those businesses get labor on the open market, reducing their costs and letting them stay afloat. What sorts of similar contracts do the other companies have?

 

[manning]

Taxpayers should do what is in their interest, which is to let the industry succeed or fail on its own.

It's called capitalism and that is what this country was founded on economically.

 

[Galahad]

"If there is no demand for their product propping them up is much worse that letting them "fail"."

Can you please explain further that there is no demand? The Big 3 account for just under 50% of the sales in the US? So, I don't understand what you mean by no demand.

There are so many myths being falsely stated by saying Chapter 11. Debt is not the problem, liquidity is. U.S. sales went from 16 million vehicles to 11 million. We have an economic problem no a debt problem. Not to mention, there is no credit for bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is death.

No the bank bailout was not loans, we bought equity shares into many banks. So, back to my question, why does AIG deserve $180 billion and not automakers?

As far as MPG is concerned, are you serious? Cars are so close in fuel economy and the Detroit automakers are damned for selling trucks and SUVs where the Japanese are praise for selling a handful of Prius and Yarus. You can buy a new Chevy Cobalt with better MPG than the Honda Fit.

Yeah, everything is made everywhere but you know what we need more than just Walmart and McDonald jobs to buy everything from everywhere. It's just a shame our Government has allowed countries like Japan to manipulate their monetary policies to take give their industries huge advantages over the US.

A new Chevy Colalt will be worth a buck and a half the minute I drive it off the lot. It will rattle like a tin can before I turn the first corner. Yes, I'm serious. I don't care what kind of cars they sell. If they can get SUV's to sell, more power to them. But trying to make a case for real lasting quality of cars made by the Detroit Three over Japanese and German makers is absurd.

Buying equity in a company (or loans, which, in spite of protests otherwise, much of the bail out has been loan or gurarantees) is not the same as a gift. We own part of those companies. The ostensible point to the bailout for the financials was to get money moving again. It's a supply issue. If you start bailing out on the demand side as well where do you stop. Everybody's too big to fail.

If GM let's say doesn't get bailed out and can't be helped by Chapter 11 then they just shut their doors? That doesn't even make sense. All the bailout would do is put it off a couple of years at best. When is the pain going to come. Now or later. Unless they radically change their business model a bailout will not help them. If a Japanese maker has, on average, $2000 lower cost per car, $2000 they can put into the car instead of other contractual obligations, of course that car is going to be perceived as a better car.

 

[ScottJ]

No, our country wasn't founder on capitalism. Up until the turn of the last century, we were an anti-corporate society. AND then up until WWII, we were a tremendously, tremendously practiced protected our industries.

Our current form of capitalism is not that old. AND guess what, for all of those other countries the people in the US aspire to be like, guess what, they protect and subsidize their industries.

 

[JARNJ3]

Wow -

I've read most of the posts on this thread, and I am amazed by the amount of union bashing......

I've always been envious of people who have unions to fight for better working conditions, salaries, benefits......

My company today just lowered our benefits - and there's not a darn thing I can do about it!! Yeah - get another job......... don't think there's any more left in the US right now......

This thread got me to googling about unions in general. For those also interested - here's a timeline from wiki of US unions........ what those poor early workers went through to earn a living ..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_labor_unions_in_the_United_States



Then there's this entry from this era.........

October 1986 (United States)
Female flight attendants won an 18-year lawsuit against United Airlines, which had fired them for getting married. The lawsuit was resolved when a U.S. district court approved the reinstatement of 475 attendants and $37 million back-pay settlement for 1,725 flight attendants. (United Airlines, Inc. v. McDonald, 432 U.S. 385 (1977))

Can you believe it? Fired for being MARRIED? Unreal........

 

[blanq]

I have not read all of the replies, and I do not have a firm opinion on whether or not we should provide loans to the auto industry, but I do have a comment on what I see as hypocrisy when it comes to how so many here view unions. Can someone tell me why when the goverment bailed AIG out, there was no cry foul regarding the employees salaries? Does anyone except me think that some of the employees at AIG might make more per hour than those in the auto industry and that maybe, just maybe, some of them might be "overpaid" when comparing them to their industry peers? BTW, in case you are wondering, I am not a union member and I am not related to anyone who works in the auto industry either.

Also, the auto industry in other countries are requesting bridge loans from their governments too, so the woes facing the auto industry are not relegated to just the Big 3 in America. Some of these companies retain lower employee costs than the Big 3 and still are in rough shape. The problem is access to credit, which has all but dried up for these companies since banks still don't seem to be lending. Do I think that the auto industry in our country has been mismanaged? Yes, and any assistance to them should come with some serious strings attached.

 

[Galahad]

I have not read all of the replies, and I do not have a firm opinion on whether or not we should provide loans to the auto industry, but I do have a comment on what I see as hypocrisy when it comes to how so many here view unions. Can someone tell me why when the goverment bailed AIG out, there was no cry foul regarding the employees salaries? Does anyone except me think that some of the employees at AIG might make more per hour than those in the auto industry? BTW, in case you are wondering, I am not a union member and I am not related to anyone who works in the auto industry either.

Also, the auto industry in other countries are requesting bridge loans from their governments too, so the woes facing the auto industry are not relegated to just the Big 3 in America. Some of these companies retain lower employee costs than the Big 3 and still are in rough shape. The problem is access to credit, which has all but dried up for these companies since banks still don't seem to be lending.

If AIG employees have wages that are inflated by a collective bargaining agreement then we should cry foul and take a good look at those agreements. If their wages are individually awarded - which most would be -then they can be changed at will be AIG. Thus AIG has mechanisms to control their costs in ways that GM cannot.

 

[blanq]

If AIG employees have wages that are inflated by a collective bargaining agreement then we should cry foul and take a good look at those agreements. If their wages are individually awarded - which most would be -then they can be changed at will be AIG. Thus AIG has mechanisms to control their costs in ways that GM cannot.

If that is true, why did we have to bail them out? Why couldn't they "control their costs" enough to get their act together without asking for a handout from the government? Also, I disagree with your assumption that only collective bargaining agreements inflate wages. There are employees in many industries that are paid more than they are worth in my opinion.

 

[ScottJ]

First of all, you have a tremendous bias against American car companies and unions.

Yeah, the BIG 3 made some crap during the late 70s thru early 90s not all but there were some. (Every GM I've owned has been driven and then sold with over 250,000 miles on them per car.)

If you can't concede that ALL car manufacturers are within MPG a mile or two of each other. ALL cars basically look the same. ALL cars are within 1 or 2 defects of each other (the Prius went through a ton of recalls when it first came out but everyone makes them out to be the holy grail). There are all the same.

Yeah, the unions were greedy. State and Federal laws in this country have been written to allow unions to basically do what they please without recourse (I am not pro union in the least). Yeah, the Big 3 made bad decisions. Geez, Toyota opened a truck plant in Texas and advertised them big. Was that a bad decision? Their credit rating is in the process of being downgraded, so obviously, Toyota is no good too? Honda is opening a plant in Indiana intended on building SUVs and had to retrofit. Was that a bad decision?

The problem right now is the economy is crashing and every other country is looking to shore up their auto industries.

OK there is about a $1800 dollar gap between domestic and foreign cars when it comes to benefits. What about the $4000 benefit the Japanese and to a lesser extent Korean enjoy due to their countries monetary rate manipulations?

Who would have envisioned our economy would have taken a dump like this? All I know is the US needs a manufacturing base. If we buy everything from everywhere else in the world, there isn't much left. Why would OPEC want to link the US dollar? If we continue down the path we're on our $ is going to be worthless.

 

[Galahad]

If that is true, why did we have to bail them out? Why couldn't they "control their costs" enough to get their act together without asking for a handout from the government? Also, I disagree with your assumption that only collective bargaining agreements inflate wages. There are many industries that are paid more than they are worth in my opinion.

The finance industry's problems were different - and their bailout was different that is being proposed. I doesn't matter much what they pay their employees (up to a point). The problem was that they could not borrow money (which companies have to do all the time) because of the frozen credit markets. further, the amount of financial exposure that would have happened if they started defaulting on their obigations (loans, insurance claims) would have further eroded the ability to move moeny around. Really, for the auto industry, if freeing up credit doesn't save them then they should really restructure. It seems to me that AIG ought to restructure too. But I don't think thier labor expenses were the problem.

Collective bargaining in 2008 is not benificial to western society. If people are paid more than they are worth and are individually and independantly employed, the employer can jettison that cost at will. Recessions like this one will reduce the extent to which those groups might be "over paid". With union contracts in place recessions can kill and industry instead of letting it heal itself. The medicine the auto makers want is not the right medicine, IMO - just treats the symptom.

 

[JARNJ3]

I have not read all of the replies, and I do not have a firm opinion on whether or not we should provide loans to the auto industry, but I do have a comment on what I see as hypocrisy when it comes to how so many here view unions. Can someone tell me why when the goverment bailed AIG out, there was no cry foul regarding the employees salaries? Does anyone except me think that some of the employees at AIG might make more per hour than those in the auto industry and that maybe, just maybe, some of them might be "overpaid" when comparing them to their industry peers? BTW, in case you are wondering, I am not a union member and I am not related to anyone who works in the auto industry either.

Also, the auto industry in other countries are requesting bridge loans from their governments too, so the woes facing the auto industry are not relegated to just the Big 3 in America. Some of these companies retain lower employee costs than the Big 3 and still are in rough shape. The problem is access to credit, which has all but dried up for these companies since banks still don't seem to be lending. Do I think that the auto industry in our country has been mismanaged? Yes, and any assistance to them should come with some serious strings attached.

I think I'm reading between the lines in all these posts that a lot of the union negative opinions are due to politics.......

Unions generally support Democratic candidates - whose politicians, in turn, are usually pro-union.........

Republicans generally feel that unions are no longer needed and the free market should determine wages, benefits, etc......

 

[Galahad]

First of all, you have a tremendous bias against American car companies and unions.

This I concede. Self inflicted wounds should be allowed to run their course. The auto makers will be better for it. If it kills the union in the process- so much the better for all of us (including those workers).

 

[Galahad]

If you can't concede that ALL car manufacturers are within MPG a mile or two of each other. ALL cars basically look the same. ALL cars are within 1 or 2 defects of each other (the Prius went through a ton of recalls when it first came out but everyone makes them out to be the holy grail). There are all the same.

This I also concede. I'm not a big fan of the Pruis but citing Toyota recalls gets you into other problems. The Detroit 3 have more than their share of shoddy product recalls. I don't concede that their products have "caught up". The only evidence of this is marketing and something called "initial quality" which is an entirely meaningless measure.

 

[#1hockeymom]

1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?

Answer: United States.
Per J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study, Mercury and Cadillac are in the top 3, along with Lexus. And in 2007, Buick was tied with Lexus for the top spot.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115

2. As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?

Answer: Volkswagen.
According to Business Week, Volkswagen had the most recalls at this time a year ago. The second worst was Toyota.
http://www.businessweek.com/autos /content/aug2007/bw20070810_455098.htm

3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.
a. Answer : Cadillac (better than both Acura and BMW)
b. Answer: Mercury (better than both Honda and Nissan)
c. Answer: Chevrolet (better than Acura, BMW, and Mazda)
This is according to J.D. Power’s Initial Quality S urvey.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008063

4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Chevrolet Malibu has better initial quality than any competitor, including the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima. The Ford Fusion also beat all 3 Japanese competitors.
This too is from the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, which also reveals that above average are American brands Mercury, Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet , Pontiac, Lincoln, and Buick. Below average are import brands Acura, Kia, Nissan, BMW, Mazda, VW, Subaru, and Scion (and several others).
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2008-Initial-Quality:-Midsize-and-Large-Cars
http://www.jdpower. com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008063

5. Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: Again per J.D. Power, the highest quality large car is the Pontiac Grand Prix, beating the Toyota Avalon. Two other Detroit cars that beat the Avalon are the Mercury Sable and Mercury Grand Marquis.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2008-Initial-Quality:-Midsize-and-Large-Cars

6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Dodge Dakota has the best quality for midsize pickups, proving that Chrysler too can beat the imports. Both the Dakota and the Ford Ranger beat the Toyota Tacoma.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2008-Initial-Quality:-Pickups-and-Vans

7. Which car is the most economical overall?

Answer: Per Edmunds.com, the premier automotive analysis site, the most economical car in America, taking into account not only mileage but all costs, is the Chevrolet Ave o. The Honda Fit is #3 and the Toyota Prius is a distant #34.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/127806/article.html

8. Which car did the Los Angeles Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?

Answer: “Cadillac makes a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti, and that car is the 2008 CTS. No other car in the mass market dares so much as this expressive and audacious bit of automotive avant-gardism.” Dan Neil, LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil12dec12-pg,0,5427133.photogallery

9. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?

Answer: The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid is the winner of this award. How could a full-size SUV defeat the media darling Toyota Prius? Read the link below and you will discover, “What’s equally eye-opening is that the Tahoe’s 21 mpg city fuel efficiency rating is the same as that of the city EPA rating for the four-cylinder Toyota Camry sedan. ”

Did you catch that?=2 0 A huge, full-size SUV from Chevrolet that gets the same city mileage as a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry!! Chevy obtained this remarkable achievement through the use of its 2-mode hybrid system, a technology that Toyota does not have.
http://www.greencar.com/features/2008greencar/

10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?

Answer: Not only was the Saturn Aura picked by the automotive press corps as better than the Honda Fit and the Toyota Camry, “When a panel of 47 journalists named the Saturn Aura the North American Car of the Year over the Toyota Camry, the vote wasn't even close, 205-89.” C hicago Tribune, 1/15/07
http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/news.html

11. Which car won the same award for 2008?

Answer: GM again crushed the Japanese competition in 2008 when the Malibu received 190 votes to the Honda Accord’s 95. The Accord actually came in 3rd since GM’s other finalist, the Cadillac CTS, received 165 votes.
http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/news.html

12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in Oct ober 2007 because of mounting quality problems?

Answer: Toyota’s much publicized quality problems resulted in Consumer Reports actually removing from their recommended vehicles list the Lexus GS luxury car, Camry V6 sedan, and Tundra pickup. This demotion occurred in October 2007.

This Q &A list was put together by an employee of an American car company who just might lose his job because of public perceptions that do not match reality. If you are one of the many Americans who gave up on Detroit’s cars because of a bad experience many years ago, it’s time to rethink your position. Rethink Detroit.




Detroit automakers: 79 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.
Foreign automakers: 33 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America.

 

[blanq]

The finance industry's problems were different - and their bailout was different that is being proposed. I doesn't matter much what they pay their employees (up to a point). The problem was that they could not borrow money (which companies have to do all the time) because of the frozen credit markets. further, the amount of financial exposure that would have happened if they started defaulting on their obigations (loans, insurance claims) would have further eroded the ability to move moeny around. Really, for the auto industry, if freeing up credit doesn't save them then they should really restructure. It seems to me that AIG ought to restructure too. But I don't think thier labor expenses were the problem.

Except that the auto industry, is claiming that their problem is the same as the financial industries...access to credit, or lack thereof. If you believe the union could be the downfall of the Big 3, then what is the explanation for the non-unionized auto companies that are asking for bridge loans from their governments?

 

[fkj2]

I think I'm reading between the lines in all these posts that a lot of the union negative opinions are due to politics.......

Unions generally support Democratic candidates - whose politicians, in turn, are usually pro-union.........

Republicans generally feel that unions are no longer needed and the free market should determine wages, benefits, etc......

Oh, for the love of...

Isn't just possible that some of us--who happened to have voted Democratically--are just sick and tired of listening to management AND UAW cry "poor me"?

 

[ScottJ]

Come on, Nisson, Hyundai and Kia all build crap but Americans love them. I'll give you Honda on quality but Toyota has been slipping more and more.

As far as initial quality, foreign car owners typically trade in their cars at a higher rate than the domestics. Long term, my Chevy will be on the road a lot longer than any Kia or Nisson or Hyundai or Honda and will last as long as any Toyota.

Even in Detroit there is a bias against US car companies in the media. If there is a BIG 3 recall, it is at the top of the business section, if any foreign company has a recall, it's on page 3.

blanq, exactly the problem currently is the lack of credit. The BIG 3 cannot hold themselves over till the new contracts kick in, money is not being lended.

I will concede unions have enjoyed outstanding benefits but Chap 11 is far more complicated than just going in and fixing it. You need a bank or government to provide financing while in Chap 11. Because of State & Federal laws they can't reorganize dealership or contracts without bankruptcy.

Also our southern country men have not been paid a fair enough wage and benefit for what they do within the foreign plants.

 

[#1hockeymom]

Oh, for the love of...

Isn't just possible that some of us--who happened to have voted Democratically--are just sick and tired of listening to management AND UAW cry "poor me"?

Then there is me... Conservative Republican that refuses to see the auto industry that she grew up with whither away, die, and take what is left of this state with it.

I'm fourth generation Ford... I'd like my kids to be able to be the fifth.