TSA to allow snow globes

[vacationclub]

We were coming back from Mexico. I guess I may have had some drugs stashed in my legs that they didn't want back in the states.

It sounds like you were going through immigration, not TSA. TSA wouldn't check you AFTER you finish your travel, but immigration would check you as you enter the country.

Profiling is not not politically correct, it is ILLEGAL!!! I doubt greatly you would see a middle eastern man with that type of T-shirt. Hating something and being a wanna be terrorist are two totally different things.

I don't believe profiling is illegal. Profiling is done constantly in all aspects of law enforcement. If a guy robs a bank who is described as white in mid 40's with a white ball cap, green shirt and blue jeans, and driving a red Ford sedan, they won't bother stopping 23 yr old black females driving a white dodge van. That's profiling.They are using the profile to narrow down suspects.

Crime investigators have specialists that create profiles to find serial killers. It's part of law enforcement.

The no fly list....by definition....is profiling. It's just a really bad profile that's not very specific. (only using a name and nothing else).

As far as the T-shirt example, I think the other poster was doing a wee bit of exaggeration to make a point about the ridiculousness of the TSA and their logic (or lack of).

 

[gmeh1]

It sounds like you were going through immigration, not TSA. TSA wouldn't check you AFTER you finish your travel, but immigration would check you as you enter the country.


I don't believe profiling is illegal. Profiling is done constantly in all aspects of law enforcement. If a guy robs a bank who is described as white in mid 40's with a white ball cap, green shirt and blue jeans, and driving a red Ford sedan, they won't bother stopping 23 yr old black females driving a white dodge van. That's profiling.They are using the profile to narrow down suspects.

Crime investigators have specialists that create profiles to find serial killers. It's part of law enforcement.

The no fly list....by definition....is profiling. It's just a really bad profile that's not very specific. (only using a name and nothing else).

As far as the T-shirt example, I think the other poster was doing a wee bit of exaggeration to make a point about the ridiculousness of the TSA and their logic (or lack of).

Criminal profiling and racial/ethnic profiling are two distinctly different things. If memory serves, the 4th and 14th amendment covers racial/ethnic/etc. profiling.
And, yes, the other poster did a lot of exaggeration (and profiling) about the laws the TSA enforce (or misconstrue often).
The no fly list is absurd.

 

[sam_gordon]

I don't believe profiling is illegal. Profiling is done constantly in all aspects of law enforcement. If a guy robs a bank who is described as white in mid 40's with a white ball cap, green shirt and blue jeans, and driving a red Ford sedan, they won't bother stopping 23 yr old black females driving a white dodge van. That's profiling.They are using the profile to narrow down suspects.

Crime investigators have specialists that create profiles to find serial killers. It's part of law enforcement.

In your examples though, there's a crime that has already been committed. In my opinion, "profiling" for terrorism is different. It would be equivalent to saying "Stop all blacks. They commit more crimes."

 

[gmeh1]

In your examples though, there's a crime that has already been committed. In my opinion, "profiling" for terrorism is different. It would be equivalent to saying "Stop all blacks. They commit more crimes."

Or saying all middle easterners are terrorists. Or, all Mexicans are illegals.

 

[vacationclub]

In your examples though, there's a crime that has already been committed. In my opinion, "profiling" for terrorism is different. It would be equivalent to saying "Stop all blacks. They commit more crimes."

Good point. Those methods are most likely not endorsed by law enforcement (officially). But profiling (the no-fly list for example) does exist. People are profiled for their name, even if they aren't the actual threat.

I don't think the TSA would admit it, but I do believe that they do have certain profiles they use...like if you pay cash, one way ticket, travelling alone, no checked bags, etc. These clues can create a profile, along with your name.

 

[Carriemel]

No, we weren't catching another flight. ATL was our final destination. I don't wear any looser clothing than anyone else.
I never have had an issue going through the x-ray scanners, but the pat down and the attitude of the lady could have been a little less rude.
I wonder if they just one people that won't make a big stink...

and they also didn't catch a metal nail file in my carryon. Mexico caught one on the way back, but ATL didn't see the other one.
When I got home I found the other one and laughed.... check the body good, but the bag slips on through...

Metal nail files are now and have been allowed for quite a few years. They didn't catch it cause they weren't LOOKING for it. Nail files are acceptable.

 

[sam_gordon]

Good point. Those methods are most likely not endorsed by law enforcement (officially). But profiling (the no-fly list for example) does exist. People are profiled for their name, even if they aren't the actual threat.

I'll disagree with that too. Let's say "John Smith" is on the No Fly list. The list is just that (I assume), a list of names of which "John Smith" is just one of them. "John Smith" (not the one on the no fly list) buys an airplane ticket. Wouldn't you WANT something to trigger "hey, this guy is on the no fly list"? And by "trigger", I mean have someone do some investigating to make sure it's not the same "John Smith". I don't know that I made any sense.

 

[gmeh1]

I'll disagree with that too. Let's say "John Smith" is on the No Fly list. The list is just that (I assume), a list of names of which "John Smith" is just one of them. "John Smith" (not the one on the no fly list) buys an airplane ticket. Wouldn't you WANT something to trigger "hey, this guy is on the no fly list"? And by "trigger", I mean have someone do some investigating to make sure it's not the same "John Smith". I don't know that I made any sense.

Well, Sam, I do see your point, but, young children have shown up on that list. I think a little more information in addition to the names would be a good thing. I bet you would change your tune if Sam Gordon showed up on a no fly list.

 

[lylone]

Metal nail files are now and have been allowed for quite a few years. They didn't catch it cause they weren't LOOKING for it. Nail files are acceptable.

They actually confiscated a rounded edge one in MCO saying it was "Illegal", but I guess in ATL and in Cancun they are ok?

Just another example of inconsistencies....

And the "immigration" security folks were wearing TSA agent uniforms.

 

[gmeh1]

Good point. Those methods are most likely not endorsed by law enforcement (officially). But profiling (the no-fly list for example) does exist. People are profiled for their name, even if they aren't the actual threat.

I don't think the TSA would admit it, but I do believe that they do have certain profiles they use...like if you pay cash, one way ticket, travelling alone, no checked bags, etc. These clues can create a profile, along with your name.

Perhaps, but sometimes your cited examples just throw up red flags and require extra screening.

 

[vacationclub]

I'll disagree with that too. Let's say "John Smith" is on the No Fly list. The list is just that (I assume), a list of names of which "John Smith" is just one of them. "John Smith" (not the one on the no fly list) buys an airplane ticket. Wouldn't you WANT something to trigger "hey, this guy is on the no fly list"? And by "trigger", I mean have someone do some investigating to make sure it's not the same "John Smith". I don't know that I made any sense.

Of course. I think we agree to agree. The problem is that is seems there are stories from people who say they have to prove to the TSA that they are not the John Smith that the TSA is looking for. Instead of additional information about John Smith, including birthday which is now required to buy a ticket, they seem to simply look for a name matching the profile, and that's it.

Perhaps, but sometimes your cited examples just throw up red flags and require extra screening.

Exactly. So they are profiling, and reacting to people who fit the profile with extra screening.

 

[gmeh1]

Of course. I think we agree to agree. The problem is that is seems there are stories from people who say they have to prove to the TSA that they are not the John Smith that the TSA is looking for. Instead of additional information about John Smith, including birthday which is now required to buy a ticket, they seem to simply look for a name matching the profile, and that's it.

Exactly. So they are profiling, and reacting to people who fit the profile with extra screening.

Not really profiling. More like following a set pf parameters in a blind random way.

 

[vacationclub]

Not really profiling. More like following a set pf parameters in a blind random way.

Ooo-kay. So, if they are looking for people with a skin color they are profiling, but if they are looking for someone with (some other characteristic) it's following a set of parameters in a blind random way. Got it.

 

[gmeh1]

Ooo-kay. So, if they are looking for people with a skin color they are profiling, but if they are looking for someone with (some other characteristic) it's following a set of parameters in a blind random way. Got it.

It is a guideline. If they were looking for people with a middle eastern name who got a ticket paying cash or without luggage, or one way, then that would be profiling.
However, if they select, at random, the above criteria without a racial or ethnic filter, it is not. The computer selects these things at random, hence the random/blind. I hope this makes more sense, but, I do have my doubts. and, it really is not important as you appear to not see the difference between police work and profiling. Wait till you become a victum, then you will understand.

 

[vacationclub]

It is a guideline. If they were looking for people with a middle eastern name who got a ticket paying cash or without luggage, or one way, then that would be profiling.
However, if they select, at random, the above criteria without a racial or ethnic filter, it is not. The computer selects these things at random, hence the random/blind. I hope this makes more sense, but, I do have my doubts. and, it really is not important as you appear to not see the difference between police work and profiling. Wait till you become a victum, then you will understand.

I've never said anything about the difference between police work and profiling. You are interchanging two different methods in your description. Profiling is not limited to just racial or ethnic characteristics....any characteristic can be profiled, and not just randomly. If you meet the characteristics I mentioned, and get singled out for it.....it wasn't random by a computer. You seem to be saying that a computer randomly decides which of the people it finds fits the profile to actually do something about, basically two different methods happening at same time....profiling and then randomly deciding which of the profiles it finds to actually act upon. You could profile race in the exact same way....simply let a computer decide randomly which (insert race here) person to flag.

 

[CPT Tripss]

I am surprised you had to go through security to exit the airport. What's the point of that?

It sounds like you were going through immigration, not TSA. TSA wouldn't check you AFTER you finish your travel, but immigration would check you as you enter the country.


I don't believe profiling is illegal. Profiling is done constantly in all aspects of law enforcement. If a guy robs a bank who is described as white in mid 40's with a white ball cap, green shirt and blue jeans, and driving a red Ford sedan, they won't bother stopping 23 yr old black females driving a white dodge van. That's profiling.They are using the profile to narrow down suspects.

Crime investigators have specialists that create profiles to find serial killers. It's part of law enforcement.

The no fly list....by definition....is profiling. It's just a really bad profile that's not very specific. (only using a name and nothing else).

As far as the T-shirt example, I think the other poster was doing a wee bit of exaggeration to make a point about the ridiculousness of the TSA and their logic (or lack of).

It's because of the physical layout of the Atlanta airport. The international arrivals have to pass through the "sterile" domestic departures area in order to get out of the airport. Dumb design but . . .

Some time back (months or years) there were media reports of a guy who refused to go through TSA security after he had been cleared to enter the US by CBP/ICE (or whatever the heck they are called today). Long story short, he was escorted out of the airport by police and did not go through any additional security. Too bad more people don't pitch a stink like he did - maybe tptb would fix it.

 

[lylone]

It's because of the physical layout of the Atlanta airport. The international arrivals have to pass through the "sterile" domestic departures area in order to get out of the airport. Dumb design but . . .

Some time back (months or years) there were media reports of a guy who refused to go through TSA security after he had been cleared to enter the US by CBP/ICE (or whatever the heck they are called today). Long story short, he was escorted out of the airport by police and did not go through any additional security. Too bad more people don't pitch a stink like he did - maybe tptb would fix it.

It was a different area than the "sterile" domestic departures area.

So some computer decided I was chosen after X ray scanning to have my legs patted while I was wearing shorts?
Or was it that because I am overweight I may be hiding something in my bare legs?
What was the reasoning for taking the nail file?

There are no consistancies at all...

 

[vacationclub]

It was a different area than the "sterile" domestic departures area.

So some computer decided I was chosen after X ray scanning to have my legs patted while I was wearing shorts?
Or was it that because I am overweight I may be hiding something in my bare legs?
What was the reasoning for taking the nail file?

There are no consistancies at all...

So, when you landed at Atlanta, and you were in the gate area, did you leave the gate area (pass by a sign next to a TSA gaurd that says you can't turn back) then have to walk to another terminal that required you to clear security again?

No computer decided to pat down your legs, only a poorly trained illogical TSA agent made that decision, probably based on what they were told on the radio by the person looking at the image. It's possible the person looking at the image simply said they saw something on your legs (below where the clothing of your shorts ended) and didn't realize that you were wearing shorts. So the TSA agent simply did what the person on the radio said to do, without actually applying logic.....that you weren't wearing any clothing on your lower legs. Like I said, they are robots programmed with a code, they are barely capable of thinking on their own. They are cast members of a show to make it look like we have security.

Not sure about the nail clipper, maybe they thought you were going to steal the plane by threatening to give people bad manicures.

 

[gmeh1]

So, when you landed at Atlanta, and you were in the gate area, did you leave the gate area (pass by a sign next to a TSA gaurd that says you can't turn back) then have to walk to another terminal that required you to clear security again?

No computer decided to pat down your legs, only a poorly trained illogical TSA agent made that decision, probably based on what they were told on the radio by the person looking at the image. It's possible the person looking at the image simply said they saw something on your legs (below where the clothing of your shorts ended) and didn't realize that you were wearing shorts. So the TSA agent simply did what the person on the radio said to do, without actually applying logic.....that you weren't wearing any clothing on your lower legs. Like I said, they are robots programmed with a code, they are barely capable of thinking on their own. They are cast members of a show to make it look like we have security.

Not sure about the nail clipper, maybe they thought you were going to steal the plane by threatening to give people bad manicures.

TSA agents are not employed to make their own judgements, they are employed to follow orders. They are not robots, they are human beings. And while it is totally illogical to have searched this poster wearing shorts, it was what she was told to do. I work around TSA agents 5 days a week and they are pretty nice people who have a job to do and, hopefully, do it well. I am sorry you feel they are "cast members" putting on a show, I feel they are very important and do a great job.

 

[vacationclub]

TSA agents are not employed to make their own judgements, they are employed to follow orders.

That's re-assuring. That would make them the only law enforcement agents not allowed to make situation-based decisions.

They are not robots, they are human beings.

You didn't think I literally meant they were electronic humanoids, did you? That description was meant to make a point, one which you just re-enforced in your sentence I quoted above at the top of this post.

And while it is totally illogical to have searched this poster wearing shorts, it was what she was told to do.

Actually, we don't know that. We don't know the agent was specifically told to search the bare legs, we can only assume that the person looking at the image from the scan saw something they didn't interpret properly. We don't know what they said to the agent that did the search, or that they were specifically told to search bare skin. Perhaps it could have gone something like this.."I see something on the lower leg area, pat down their clothing" Other agent: subject is wearing shorts, there is no clothing below the knee. First agent: OK.

That's why a guy got naked a while back...to prove beyond a doubt he's not hiding anything so they would have absolutely no excuse to touch him.

I work around TSA agents 5 days a week and they are pretty nice people who have a job to do and, hopefully, do it well. I am sorry you feel they are "cast members" putting on a show, I feel they are very important and do a great job.

I didn't say there weren't pretty nice people. I didn't say they don't have a job to do. How well they do their job is subject to debate since it's really hard to gauge what their job actually is or how you determine if they have achieved that goal. Security theater is a term used by many, not just myself, to describe the illusion of security being attempted by TSA. They do have an important responsibility, that's why it's so unfortunate that the TSA is such a mess, even shutting down airports because of their bungling. Not to mention the ones getting fired for stealing, sleeping, assisting smugglers, etc. I'd expect this from workers at Walmart, not the TSA.

They do a great job at following orders, regardless of the consequences of those logic-less interactions....I'll agree with you there. No situation, be it pulling out a flight attendants prosthetic breast, or breaking a colastamy bag after being warned abut it, or tugging and touching a stomach feeding tube after being given a doctors note, or frisking a 92 year old, or detaining a former governor who just had a heart surgery, will stop them from "just following orders".