TSA mess and the police

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It stinks that the airlines have chosen to go this way, but I guess the hemorrhaging losses would be too much. Still, it is terrible that people bought their tickets expecting one thing and are now stuck with another situation entirely with no recourse. THAT is going to stir people up and make people mad, not a bunch of articles or blogs. I am so grateful I am not in those shoes today. What a colossal mess.

No matter what happens I am taking one little fact away, the government can do whatever they want whenever they want with no warnings so I can plan accordingly. I guess public transportation is out for us for a long long time. Too bad for the poor and city dwellers who rely on public transportation though, looks like they won't be able to avoid the freight train coming their way. Now I've got Metallica's 'No Leaf Clover' in my head...gotta love the poets & musicians. The artists always have words when they fail me.

I wonder what is happening in the courts? It's a slow process but seems to be the only brakes available.
 
It looks like there IS some merit to the argument that enhanced security is unconstitutional. Took him over 2 hours, but this guy managed to prove it to the TSA:

http://noblasters.com/

He flew into Cincinnati International from Paris. Apparently in that airport, returning international travelers go through the sterile area. So they have to be screened AFTER their flights. He simply politely refused to be scanned or patted down.

I don't know that he really proved anything. I think he just frustrated them enough that they walked him through.
 
Yes - it is too bad.. I will likely never see her again - and she will never see our mother again either..

"If" I were able to fly, I would not.. Why? Because I am vehemently opposed to these useless, invasive/intrusive groping pat downs - and I would not stand in a line - hoping and praying - that I would not be randomly chosen for groping of my body without just cause..

As for a road trip, I thought you knew by now that DD has not been able to travel any significant distance by vehicle for at least 4 yrs. - as I've mentioned it numerous times in various threads..

I can no longer travel more than 2 hours or so myself - by any means of transportation - due to medical issues of my own.. After that fiasco here on the DIS with a medical issue I was having several years ago (and posted about on the CB), I learned my lesson.. Any serious medical conditions I have are no longer up for discussion with strangers.. I discuss them with my family, my doctors, and very close friends (on a "need to know" basis)..

So - we're one family who will lose out on times with loved ones due to these new security measures and sadly, I'm sure there will be many others as well.. To just "shut up" and "go with the flow" (or travel by other means) is not an option for everyone..:sad2:

I'm with you, C.Ann. There are many folks that will be affected by the new flying regulations. My in-laws certainly are in that situation. Medical conditions make it awkward for MIL to fly under normal circumstances and the pat down could be humiliating for her medically. Sadly, I do not think she will see her new grandchild and another that will be here shortly.
 
I don't know that he really proved anything. I think he just frustrated them enough that they walked him through.

Possible. But what bad PR for them. After all, they keep protesting that this is all for the safety of the American public...yet they allowed him to leave the airport and mix among the general population unscanned. Not to mention that it could be used as precedent for future protesters and ultimately court challenges---if this person didn't have to be scanned or patted down, how can they possibly arrest or detain or fine the next one and the next?

It seems to me that the TSA would have had everything to gain by arresting the guy to make an example out of him. Since they consulted with the Federal Security Director and decided NOT to arrest him, it leads me to believe that they're aware that they have no actual legal leg to stand on.
 

I don't know that he really proved anything. I think he just frustrated them enough that they walked him through.

I don't necessarily agree with you, but for the sake of argument, let's say you are correct.

What good are these procedures if the agents will just let someone bypass them out of frustration?
 
Correct. Everyone is interviewed...a handful of short questions asked at the same time as you present your boarding pass, walk through the metal detector and have your bags X-rayed. It doesn't add more than possibly a few seconds to the process. By contrast, the enhanced pat downs and body scanners add at least one to two minutes.

Have you been through the new screening process? It takes no more time. The scanners take only a few seconds longer, and the pat downs are just as quick as the old pat downs. There are complaints about the new process, but it does not take longer.

Not sure where you got your 1-2 minute info. :confused3
 
I don't necessarily agree with you, but for the sake of argument, let's say you are correct.

What good are these procedures if the agents will just let someone bypass them out of frustration?

I agree with this. I am 100% certain that this is Constitutional, but I am concerned that the TSA let someone through because he annoyed them enough.
 
Possible. But what bad PR for them. After all, they keep protesting that this is all for the safety of the American public...yet they allowed him to leave the airport and mix among the general population unscanned. Not to mention that it could be used as precedent for future protesters and ultimately court challenges---if this person didn't have to be scanned or patted down, how can they possibly arrest or detain or fine the next one and the next?

It seems to me that the TSA would have had everything to gain by arresting the guy to make an example out of him. Since they consulted with the Federal Security Director and decided NOT to arrest him, it leads me to believe that they're aware that they have no actual legal leg to stand on.

I think if he had been going into the airport rather than out of it, they would have arrested him. Maybe I'm not understanding how this particular airport is set up, but the whole point was that he was leaving and not coming in.
 
I think if he had been going into the airport rather than out of it, they would have arrested him. Maybe I'm not understanding how this particular airport is set up, but the whole point was that he was leaving and not coming in.

Ahhh, that is a pretty key piece of information. I am surprised that they gave him 2 hours, considering how the TSA isn't interested in listening. ;)
 
Are TSA pat-downs and full-body scans unconstitutional?

By Elizabeth Fuller Elizabeth Fuller – Wed Nov 17, 4:03 pm ET

As the debate about the Transportation Security Administration’s screening procedures pings across the Internet, a growing chorus of critics is asserting that electronic imaging scans and “enhanced pat-downs” both represent an unconstitutional violation of the Fourth Amendment, which protects against unreasonable searches.

“Enough is enough. I should not have to submit to a digital strip search or being groped by a glorified security guard," writes commenter vrwc1 in a typical post on cnet.com. "This is the largest violation of personal privacy we've ever seen.”

The choice to get on an airplane, the argument goes, is not probable cause for such invasive searches, nor does buying a ticket constitute consent to be subjected to a “virtual strip search” and “groping,” as critics call the two searches.

IN PICTURES: Airport security

For the courts, however, it is a matter of balancing personal privacy rights against public safety.

“Are the conditions that you’re consenting to so draconian and so unreasonable that there’s a Fourth Amendment problem?” asks William Schroeder, a professor of law at Southern Illinois University at Carbondale. “I don’t think that argument is going to carry the day, given that people have hidden bombs on their bodies in ways that cannot be found through less invasive searches.”

'You don't have to fly'At the heart of the issue is consent, says Professor Schroeder. Have people consented to this search, simply by buying a ticket? "I certainly understand why people are not altogether pleased about it,” says Schroeder, but “you’ve consented. You don’t have to fly – that’s your choice.”

Others, however, suggest that the searches overreach. In order to pass the Supreme Court’s test for constitutionality, searches must balance a “reasonable” amount of privacy invasion against the likelihood of finding evidence of a crime.

RELATED: Number of full-body scanners at US airports to triple in 2010

In other words, it comes down to a cost-benefit analysis.

The "costs" of the scans have been reported from every corner of the Internet. Stories are emerging of TSA officers commenting inappropriately on scans, and of passengers reporting their pat-downs as “sexual assault.”

What is not yet clear are the benefits.

John Pistole, head of the TSA, told a Senate committee Tuesday that pat-down techniques are so thorough that they would have detected the explosives concealed in the underwear of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab on Christmas Day last year.

“It’s more invasive than I’m used to,” acknowledged Mr. Pistole, when asked by Sen. Byron Dorgan (D) of North Dakota if he had received an enhanced pat-down himself, during a Wednesday morning hearing of the Senate Commerce, Science, Transportation Committee.

After acknowledging his own personal discomfort with the search, Pistole stood by the procedure as a screening technique. “The bottom line is, we need to provide for the best possible security,” he said.

Do full-body scanners work?But the value of the full-body scans, which are used 50 times more often than the pat-downs, are less certain.

“It remains unclear whether the AIT [scanners] would have been able to detect the weapon Mr. Abdulmutallab used in his attempted attack,” says a March report from the Government Accountability Office (GAO).


Italian security officials stopped using the scanners in September. "We didn't get good results from body scanners during testing,” said Vito Riggio, the president of Italy’s aviation authority, describing the scans as slow and ineffective.

British scientists found that the scanners picked up shrapnel and heavy wax and metal, but missed plastic, chemicals and liquids, reported UK newspaper The Independent in January.

“Some of these technological responses to terrorism really start to seem like placebos,” says Susan Herman, President of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and law professor at Brooklyn Law School. “To the extent that people understand what the benefits are, and the invasion of privacies are, they can make more informed decisions about giving up their privacy for machines that make them feel better, but don’t do the job of preventing any terrorist device from getting on an airplane.”

Professor Herman says the scanners present a significant threat to privacy.

“This technology can go right up a woman’s skirt," and it can reveal medical conditions via the presence of an adult diaper, a colostomy bag, or other personal medical equipment – information that individuals have the right to keep private, she adds.

The TSA has relented in the face of some complaints. It announced Tuesday that it will no longer screen children under 12.

Chris Calabrese, a privacy lobbyist for the ACLU, says “the balance seems to be missing here.”

“Until it’s restored, I think TSA is going to continue to hear these concerns," he adds. "This is pretty far outside the norm of what people expect when they travel, even in these days. We’ve certainly seen the normal shift over the past decade, but there’s still a line, and both these procedures are on the wrong side of that line.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20101117/ts_csm/344044

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Interesting article. It will be interesting to see the outcome of the lawsuits.
 
I agree with this. I am 100% certain that this is Constitutional, but I am concerned that the TSA let someone through because he annoyed them enough.


How can you be 100% sure? I think it would take a while for the courts to decide this if its ever tested.
 
Ahhh, that is a pretty key piece of information. I am surprised that they gave him 2 hours, considering how the TSA isn't interested in listening. ;)

That IS a key piece of information. Hence my stating in my original post that he was returning from Paris and that incoming international travelers are scanned AFTER their flights. Apparently the incoming international terminal empties into the sterile area.

And sure, I agree that the fact that he was leaving may have factored into their decision. BUT, the fact remains that:

1) Every other person departing that flight was scanned/patted down/sent through the metal detector. Randomly.

2) This particular traveler refused the body scanner/pat down options. As per apparent TSA policy (based on other reported experiences), he was not allowed to choose the metal detector option.

3) He invoked his constitutional rights, and the TSA demurred.

4) The traveler completed his goal of NOT being scanned or patted down.

Wouldn't it have been better for the TSA to prove their point by arresting him, if they actually believed the charges would stick? What did they gain by letting him leave, audio recording of the encounter in hand? They won't let people who try to get INTO the airport turn around and leave again. What's the TSA's motive here, and why was this determination made in consult with the Federal Security Director?

I don't know the answers, but I think the questions are important.
 
Again..from our airport, (Alb to MCO) there are no seats available either coming or going. I also looked at a few other popular cities. So it doesn't appear to be a national trend. And looking around, what seats there are, are very expensive, so the airlines can do their usual and overbook at the higher rate and pay off any that decide not to fly. For them it will be a win win situation.

Yes, I really do think that this is all backlash. Take a moment and look at WDW's peak seasons, the week of Thanksgiving is squarely in the middle. I've been there during this time of year and the place is normally absolutely mobbed. I had to pay a HUGE premium and buy my airline tickets far in advance and pay more for my room. By the time we were a month out my SIL wanted to switch a flight and there wasn't a seat left for her to move into. Again, I really do think this, it's based partly upon verifiable info and partly on personal experience so for me, it's reasonable.
 
Pat-Downs at Airports Prompt Complaints
By SUSAN STELLIN
Published: November 18, 2010

In the three weeks since the Transportation Security Administration began more aggressive pat-downs of passengers at airport security checkpoints, traveler complaints have poured in.

Some offer graphic accounts of genital contact, others tell of agents gawking or making inappropriate comments, and many express a general sense of powerlessness and humiliation. In general passengers are saying they are surprised by the intimacy of a physical search usually reserved for police encounters.

“I didn’t really expect her to touch my (use your imagination) through my pants,” said Kaya McLaren, an elementary schoolteacher from Cle Elum, Wash., who was patted down at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport last Saturday because the body scanner detected a tissue and a hair band in her pocket.

The agency has so far responded to the complaints by calling for cooperation and patience from passengers, citing polls showing broad support for the full-body scanning machines.

Still, it remains to be seen whether travelers approve of the pat-downs, especially as millions more people experience them for the first time during the holiday travel season.

“I would be very surprised if the average American would say this is O.K. after going through the kind of experience we’re hearing about,” said Jay Stanley, a senior policy analyst with the American Civil Liberties Union, which has received nearly 400 complaints from travelers.

Critics also question whether the pat-downs will survive legal scrutiny. On Tuesday, two pilots filed a lawsuit against the Department of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration, claiming that the new screening procedures violate Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure. But legal experts are divided over whether the courts will find the searches reasonable.

“For Fourth Amendment purposes, you can’t touch somebody like this unless you’re checking them into a jail or you’ve got reasonable suspicion that they’ve got a gun,” said John Wesley Hall, a criminal defense lawyer who specializes in search and seizure law.

“Here there is no reasonable suspicion,” he said. “It’s the pure act of getting on a plane.”

But Orin S. Kerr, a law professor at George Washington University, said the courts had generally supported the government’s claims in cases involving airport screening, although new cases would have to balance the more invasive nature of current search procedures with the government’s security needs.

“Reasonableness is a murky standard, so there’s room for a new legal challenge,” Professor Kerr said. “But the tenor of earlier cases is pretty deferential to the government.”

The Electronic Privacy Information Center has also filed suit against the Department of Homeland Security, arguing that the body scanners violate Fourth Amendment protections as well as other federal laws. The group is weighing how to respond to the pat-downs, calling for a stronger response from the government to passenger concerns.

“There’s been no meaningful effort in Washington to hear from the American traveling public,” said Marc Rotenberg, president of the privacy center. “So far, Congress has only heard one side of the story — quite literally, they have only heard from the T.S.A.”



In an effort to give travelers more of a voice, groups including the privacy center, the U.S. Travel Association and the American Civil Liberties Union, are soliciting feedback about passengers’ experiences at airport checkpoints, collectively gathering more than 2,000 reports since the new pat-down policy took effect late last month.

“What I’m hearing is some real inconsistency,” said Kate Hanni, executive director of FlyersRights.org, which operates a hot line for passenger complaints. “There seems to be a huge variation in how they’re patting people down.”

Representatives from the various groups say reports about security agents’ behavior run the gamut from respectful and apologetic to aggressive and hostile, with male and female passengers seemingly equally bothered by the searches. Disabled travelers, parents traveling with children, victims of sexual assault and people with medical devices or health issues have expressed concerns about how the new policy affects their ability to fly.

Laura E. Seay, an assistant professor of political science at Morehouse College in Atlanta, said she wore an insulin pump and was disturbed to find that she would have to submit to a pat-down every time she flew because the device showed up on the full-body scanner. After experiencing that physical search for the first time at Washington National Airport, she said she realized that she would have to endure the same thing once a month, because she traveled frequently for work.

“It definitely made me uncomfortable,” she said. “I don’t think anything improper was done, but it’s very invasive and the thought of going through that every time I fly is discouraging.”
Readers' Comments

Although she submitted a complaint to the T.S.A. in September, she said she had yet to receive a response.

For passengers, one frustration is that the agency, citing security reasons, has declined to release specific guidelines about how the pat-downs are conducted or what agents are permitted to touch. Law-enforcement officials, on the other hand, conduct searches subject to state laws and long-established guidelines after extensive training on what is, and is not, allowed. They are also generally searching only for weapons in a stop-and-frisk encounter.

According to information the T.S.A. has shared or published, the airport pat-downs are supposed to be conducted by officers the same sex as the traveler, and passengers can request a private screening and have a traveling companion present during the search. Agents are not permitted to look inside passengers’ underwear or reach inside a skirt, and children 12 and younger are supposed to receive a modified pat-down.

Even passengers who submit to the new body scanners may be subject to a pat-down if the machine detects an anomaly. In other cases, passengers may be randomly selected for a physical search.

Rather than waiting for a court decision or the T.S.A. to rethink its procedures, some local officials — and passengers — are taking matters into their own hands. On Thursday, New York City Council members called for the city to ban the use of body scanners at city airports. And sites like WeWontFly.com and OptOutDay.com are calling for passenger protests at security checkpoints next Wednesday, the day before Thanksgiving, while other disgruntled travelers are suggesting that men wear kilts or that the boldest passengers strip down to their underwear before entering the security line.

The growing furor, and the divided opinions over a better approach to security, suggest the debate is likely to heat up before anything is resolved.

“There are many people who are in favor of this level of screening and there are many people who are terrified by it,” said Ms. McLaren, the teacher. “But I don’t think we as an American people have reached a consensus on what it is we want.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/business/19security.html?_r=2&ref=business
 
How can you be 100% sure? I think it would take a while for the courts to decide this if its ever tested.

Because I, too, have taken Constitutional Law. I understand the document. These laws are based on the federal governments powers to regulate interstate commerce. Powers granted to the federal government in the Constitution and based on laws written over the centuries since. The airlines are clearly involved in interstate commerce.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 - the Commerce Clause

I don't like Wikipedia for political stuff, but it does a pretty good job explaining things like this. Read here: link...

Chief Justice John Marshall ruled in Gibbons v. Ogden that the power to regulate interstate commerce also included the power to regulate interstate navigation: "Commerce, undoubtedly is traffic, but it is something more—it is intercourse ... [A] power to regulate navigation is as expressly granted, as if that term had been added to the word 'commerce' ... [T]he power of Congress does not stop at the jurisdictional lines of the several states. It would be a very useless power if it could not pass those lines." The Court's decision contains language supporting one important line of Commerce Clause jurisprudence, the idea that the electoral process of representative government represents the primary limitation on the exercise of the Commerce Clause powers:

The wisdom and the discretion of Congress, their identity with the people, and the influence which their constituents possess at elections, are, in this, as in many other instances, as that, for example, of declaring war, the sole restraints on which they have relied, to secure them from its abuse. They are the restraints on which the people must often rely solely, in all representative governments....

The wide interpretation of the scope of the Commerce Clause continued following the passing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which aimed to prevent business from discriminating against black customers. The United States Supreme Court issued several opinions which supported this use of the Commerce Clause. Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States, 379 U.S. 241 (1964), ruled that Congress could regulate a business that served mostly interstate travelers. Daniel v. Paul, 395 U.S. 298 (1969), ruled that the federal government could regulate a recreational facility because three out of the four items sold at its snack bar were purchased from outside the state.
 
Thank you for sharing your experience. Out of curiosity, did you feel violated or interrogated by the questioning, or was it a polite and reasonably comfortable experience?

The thing is, under the Israeli model, it wouldn't be 200 people from a flight going through that. Like you mentioned, most people on your particular flight didn't undergo such thorough questioning. I'm not familiar with the Amsterdam procedures, but under the Israeli procedures the vast majority of travelers only get a couple of very basic questions. Highly trained people are studying travel patterns (the reason you were interviewed in Amsterdam) and airport behaviors. Only those who pop for suspicious behavior are more thoroughly interviewed.

It would cost money to give TSA screeners the requisite training, absolutely. But I don't believe that it would cause travel backups if properly implemented. Besides, if the entire point is "safety," wouldn't it be better to use a method that has actually been proven to work?

The most intimidating security that I've been through (that I can recall):
1) USSR, 1987, entering and exiting. Exiting was particularly interesting as they unzipped my duffel - handed me the empty bag and started handing me back item by item my stuff. Shirts, socks, underwear, you name it. After hand-checking everything, they re-ran it through the scanner and finally gave me the all clear.

2) Amsterdam (example before) - EVERY passenger was questioned for about 3-5 minutes. Some, depending on where they came from, were pulled aside and questioned longer - as we were. This was not through security as we never left a "secure" area - we were connecting there - this was as we were entering the boarding area.

3) London, 2010 - This was returning to the US - The agent hand checked every item in my carry-on - opened every bag, inspected every single thing. I was also subject to a full pat down. This was completed for every single passenger, not random, not raising red flags. Took over an hour to get everyone into boarding area.


Of those, I felt intimidated by the full 15 minute questioning (he was carrying a BIG gun), and I felt judged when the agents looked through and at every item that I carried with me. She opened mini-bottles and sniffed them, she inspected contact lenses. After those experiences, the pat downs ? Minimal.

Maybe that's why I come from the ... it isn't a big deal. I'm comparing it to other, more "invasive" things. I haven't been through the scanners, so I can't speak to that.

New patdowns.... Uncomfortable ? Yes, sure. But so was entering the football game last weekend when I was patted down. Granted, it was above the waist, but I wasn't expecting it.

It all depends upon the perspective...
 
When we clear customs after being out of the country, they are more interested in, if I tried to sneak in a plant or fruit. If this guy was already off the plane, what was TSA looking for? I assume he had already gone through customs. I've never had the TSA try to search me on my way into the country. Certainly, our last trip from Ireland, was very time consuming. They separated us into male and female, patted us down in line, questioned us, and went through our bags after putting them through the machine a few times. Hubby has a C-Pap, so that had to be checked separately, and they wouldn't let me stay and wait for him (it was a very small hall) or take his stuff off the counter. No one did any protesting. They were very no nonsense. I thought we would never make our plane.

I think if he had been going into the airport rather than out of it, they would have arrested him. Maybe I'm not understanding how this particular airport is set up, but the whole point was that he was leaving and not coming in.
 
...
I don't know the answers, but I think the questions are important.

When it comes to freedom, the questions are always important - but one should never proceed from the stance that they know the answers when they do not - nor should one judge a process based on the complaints of a tiny minority.

When I went through the process in ORD, no one complained or seemed to be put out in any way. I stood in a long line (if you have gone through ORD, you know of the lines :lmao:) and watched hundreds go through. Hundreds. Not a single incident or outburst. And the line moved very quickly.
 
I think if he had been going into the airport rather than out of it, they would have arrested him. Maybe I'm not understanding how this particular airport is set up, but the whole point was that he was leaving and not coming in.

True, but in John Tyner's video (which is really just audio) you can clearly hear a TSA agent telling another one that he "backed down" earlier because someone was getting obnoxious. Makes me think that nobody is really sure how things would go if this issue were pressed.
 
When it comes to freedom, the questions are always important - but one should never proceed from the stance that they know the answers when they do not - nor should one judge a process based on the complaints of a tiny minority.

When I went through the process in ORD, no one complained or seemed to be put out in any way. I stood in a long line (if you have gone through ORD, you know of the lines :lmao:) and watched hundreds go through. Hundreds. Not a single incident or outburst. And the line moved very quickly.

I wouldn't call fully half the population of the United States a tiny minority. The latest polls show that 50 percent of Americans are opposed to the pat downs and a third are opposed to the body scanners (source: CNN). And when's the last time Democrats and Republicans agreed on anything? House leaders from both parties have filed letters to TSA citing invasion of privacy:

http://www.hstoday.us/content/view/15503/128/

I'm glad that you have so far had good experiences and not personally witnessed anyone who did not. But casting those who have poor experiences as a "tiny minority" based only on your personal observations does not seem justified.
 
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